Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[LatinRight]

You’re speaking Calvinism.

**God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

You said James:
You’re speaking Calvinism. **

I agree with you James.

A positive predestination to grace, and with the destination of the predestined is hell is Calvinism. – No one can deny that.

I realized that too and I agree with you James.

God bless James.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

You got no business asking that question. You are NOT my Creator.

**God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

I apologize for asked from you the above question.** :tiphat:

I didn’t mean to invade your privacy.

God bless James.

LatinRight

 

[drblank1]

BUT… I have to chime in on this. I don’t think you can lose sonship. Did Adam? Is original sin the absence of sonship? I’m not totally clear on this as justification transfers up from children of wrath to children of God. I think you can can be a “fallen son”.

Now under Catholic theology you can move in and out of grace which is a foreign concept to Protestants. We participate in the sacrament of penance to restore lost justification/righteousness/grace. An earlier poster said it best, Protestant theology is binary (saved/not saved). Catholic theology is not so delineated, hence we will probably hit 1,000 posts in this discussion when we probably all agree that faith without works is dead, that’s apparently not good enough, we have to argue why its so.

And I agree. Once God saves you, you cannot lose your inheritance as some on the forum assert. Catholics may say your fall out of grace. Protestants say you break communion/your relationship with God. I think you and I are in agreement.

Thank for your (name removed by moderator)ut

 

[drblank1]

Despair is also a sin against the Spirit.

But that is NOT blaspheme against the Spirit. Please acknowledge the difference or are you indicating any sin against the Spirit blaspheme?

 

[ajcstr]

And I agree. Once God saves you, you cannot lose your inheritance as some on the forum assert. Catholics may say your fall out of grace. Protestants say you break communion/your relationship with God. I think you and I are in agreement.

Thank for your (name removed by moderator)ut

So here is where I’m fuzzy (and I’m talking from a Catholic perspective so my Catholic friends may be able to help but maybe this needs to be a separate post.)

As I say, I don’t think that “sonship” can be lost, yet…

Original sin is the absence of this “sonship” that we receive in Baptism (remember, I’m talking as a Catholic). But Adam had this sonship and yet because of the fall it was not passed on to us, so did he lose is as a result of sin? If he did not then why does Paul describe the transition from Children of wrath to Children of God?

 

[James248]

And I agree. Once God saves you, you cannot lose your inheritance as some on the forum assert. Catholics may say your fall out of grace. Protestants say you break communion/your relationship with God. I think you and I are in agreement.

Thank for your (name removed by moderator)ut

And when you break communion with God?

 

[James248]

But that is NOT blaspheme against the Spirit. Please acknowledge the difference or are you indicating any sin against the Spirit blaspheme?

Yes. I’m not alone in making this indication.

The offense against the Holy Spirit that stands out is the one Our Lord calls an unforgivable sin. The Catechism in No. 1864 says, “‘Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven” [Matthew 12:31; cf. Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10]. There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.”
Pope John Paul II explains that that unforgivable blasphemy consists “in the refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit” (Dominum et Vivificantem, No. 46). It is a sin of stubbornness that rejects God’s mercy.
Other sins against the Holy Spirit are commonly said to be: despair, presumption, obstinacy, resisting truth, and envy of another’s spiritual welfare.
“By despair,” explains the Catechism, No. 2091, “man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice — for the Lord is faithful to his promises — and to his mercy.”

 

[spina1953]

James 248, I agree with your post of 748 I would like to add to your statement that there is also when one refuses forgiveness that is believes he or she can not be ever forgiven and or those who refuse to forgive others yet believe that they themselves be forgiven believing they are righteous and have no need to forgive others.

 

[ajcstr]

And I agree. Once God saves you, you cannot lose your inheritance as some on the forum assert. Catholics may say your fall out of grace. Protestants say you break communion/your relationship with God. I think you and I are in agreement.

Thank for your (name removed by moderator)ut

I don’t think we are in agreement because falling out of grace is basically the loss of justification and I’m sure you would not view a break in communion with God the same way.

 

[ajcstr]

Original sin is the absence of this “sonship” that we receive in Baptism (remember, I’m talking as a Catholic). But Adam had this sonship and yet because of the fall it was not passed on to us, so did he lose is as a result of sin? If he did not then why does Paul describe the transition from Children of wrath to Children of God?

May have found an answer - which makes sense as far as original sin goes but does imply that sonship can be lost:

Adam’s sin involved the loss of his supernatural status as a son of God. Matthias J. Scheeben, an eminent German Roman Catholic theologian of the 19th century, explains, “It is a complete estrangement and separation of man from God as his supernatural end, and is met with on God’s part not by a simple displeasure – involving disfavor in the moral sense – but by a forcible ejection from the state of the children of God, a stripping away of the supernatural raiment of grace.” (The Mysteries of Christianity). In short, the divine sonship of Adam was lost through original sin.

 

[Cathoholic]

JOHN 15:1-6, 26-27 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches.
If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. . . . .

. . . . 26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

drblank1. You said (here) . . .

Jesus is the Vine, the Jewish people are the branches, and we are grafted branches. What He cuts off are the Jews who reject Jesus.

drblank1. You seem to be saying “Once Saved, Always Saved” for us but the Jews CAN be lost because that’s ALL that Jesus was addressing in John 15.
(Am I reading what you said wrong?)

Please re-read the passage. Jesus is talking about ALL who are IN-Jesus can be cut off. Jesus is talking about people who will receive the Holy Spirit or “the Advocate”.

Jesus is addressing His Apostles primarily, and Jewish people (IN HIM) secondarily, AND non-Jewish people who will be IN Him lastly.

Jesus is addressing Christians.

You said (here) . . .

Once God saves you, you cannot lose your inheritance as some on the forum assert.

You are wrong. You can CHOOSE to throw away your inheritance and die.

There is no “Once Saved, Always Saved” anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Cathoholic]

drblank1.

Despair IS a form of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

James 248 is correct.

 

[Cathoholic]

drblank1. You said . . . .

You cannot take one snippet of scripture and say entrance into Heaven is based on charity. If that is the case, then Jesus’ sacrifice was in vain and there are a lot of non-Christians in heaven because they were caring people on earth. Yes, then Jesus took our punishment for nothing.

Paul is clear. You cannot earn/merit salvation. Salvation is a free gift of God APART from works.

Paul uses justified in becoming saved. James uses justified a proof/evidence you are saved.

. . . . Now, I’m not saying what we do hear on earth is not important. It is VERY important.

What if charity is God WORKING IN YOU and that flowed from Jesus’ work on Calvary?

THEN would “charity” make “Jesus’ sacrifice . … . in vain”?

The reason you are saying this is because you fail to understand what “charity” entails.

Charity INCLUDES a participation on Jesus’ life, death, and Resurrection.

You only get the Resurrection part it seems.

And if “Charity” is unnecessary, but faith IS necessary WHY would St. Paul say Charity is GREATER than faith?

And if “works” are so unnecessary (but “important”) but “faith” IS necessary (which it is), what about when St. Paul tells us faith COMES FROM (at least in part) the WORK of peoples “PREACHING”? (In Romans 10)

 

[Cathoholic]

Let’s listen in to Jesus in Matthew 6 refute OSAS.

Jesus is just finishing teaching about the Our Father Prayer.

MATTHEW 6:12-13 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Now let’s keep listening, because Jesus is going to warn us about a situation where we won’t get our sins forgiven if we don’t do something. What could that something be?

Is THIS what Jesus is going to say?

phantom verse 6:14?-15? 14 For if you accept me into your heart as personal Lord and Savior, your heavenly Father will forgive you your sins unconditionally and you have eternal life. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father has forgiven you anyway unconditionally and I guess your Father can’t take away eternal life from you otherwise it wouldn’t be eternal.

As good as accepting Jesus into your heart is; that is not what Jesus says here!

Let’s go back to Matthew 6 and see what Jesus really DOES say to people who have God as their FATHER (!), . . . . people who have a REAL family relationship with God.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

If we don’t forgive sins we won’t be forgiven either!

And Jesus is addressing people who already have God as THEIR FATHER – People WHO ARE SAVED!

God will not forgive these people who have God as their FATHER, if they don’t forgive!

These are the words of God almighty in the Flesh!

Matthew 6:12-15 does not teach or suggest OSAS (nor does any verse).
Matthew 6:12-15 specifically refutes the false doctrine of OSAS.

 

[James248]

drblank1. You said (here) . . .

drblank1. You seem to be saying “Once Saved, Always Saved” for us but the Jews CAN be lost because that’s ALL that Jesus was addressing in John 15.
(Am I reading what you said wrong?)

Please re-read the passage. Jesus is talking about ALL who are IN-Jesus can be cut off. Jesus is talking about people who will receive the Holy Spirit or “the Advocate”.

Jesus is addressing His Apostles primarily, and Jewish people (IN HIM) secondarily, AND non-Jewish people who will be IN Him lastly.

Jesus is addressing Christians.

You said (here) . . .

You are wrong. You can CHOOSE to throw away your inheritance and die.

There is no “Once Saved, Always Saved” anywhere in the Bible.

What I don’t understand is why certain Christians hold up Romans 9 as the foundation of their theology of OSAS, yet try to dance around Romans 11 and Hebrews 10.

 

[JonNC]

BUT… I have to chime in on this. I don’t think you can lose sonship. Did Adam? Is original sin the absence of sonship? I’m not totally clear on this as justification transfers up from children of wrath to children of God. I think you can can be a “fallen son”.

Now under Catholic theology you can move in and out of grace which is a foreign concept to Protestants. We participate in the sacrament of penance to restore lost justification/righteousness/grace. An earlier poster said it best, Protestant theology is binary (saved/not saved). Catholic theology is not so delineated, hence we will probably hit 1,000 posts in this discussion when we probably all agree that faith without works is dead, that’s apparently not good enough, we have to argue why its so.

Again, depends on the "Protestant ".

 

[spina1953]

Again, depends on the "Protestant ".

Hi Jon NC, I agree with you on this point since in some Protestant circles one can backslide as they say which seems to mean that they fell out of grace with God. and then they have to go through hoops to get back in. So i am guessing it really depends on who one talks to that are Protestant and what they believe about it.

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon NC, I agree with you on this point since in some Protestant circles one can backslide as they say which seems to mean that they fell out of grace with God. and then they have to go through hoops to get back in. So i am guessing it really depends on who one talks to that are Protestant and what they believe about it.

Hi Spina,
From my perspective, first as a Lutheran, then now as an Anglican, Confession followed by absolution brings forgiveness and cleansing. I’m certain that there are some communions that reject this understanding of reconciliation.
So yes, it really does depend.

 

[spina1953]

Hi Spina,
From my perspective, first as a Lutheran, then now as an Anglican, Confession followed by absolution brings forgiveness and cleansing. I’m certain that there are some communions that reject this understanding of reconciliation.
So yes, it really does depend.

Hi Jon NC, I did not know that you went from being Lutheran to Anglican, but that much have been a very big decision on your part to do so! One does what one feels one needs to do. I agree confession followed by Absolution does bring forgiveness and cleansing and heals the soul, mind and body as that sure takes the stress of sin away. Like you i am sure other Christian communities do reject it and have some other way some from what I understand is very harsh to say the least. Yet, in the end it really depends on the religious beliefs one holds and understands. Anyway its good to hear from you!

 

[drblank1]

So here is where I’m fuzzy (and I’m talking from a Catholic perspective so my Catholic friends may be able to help but maybe this needs to be a separate post.)

As I say, I don’t think that “sonship” can be lost, yet…

Original sin is the absence of this “sonship” that we receive in Baptism (remember, I’m talking as a Catholic). But Adam had this sonship and yet because of the fall it was not passed on to us, so did he lose is as a result of sin? If he did not then why does Paul describe the transition from Children of wrath to Children of God?

Paul describes only one way: wrath → God. He does not describe God → wrath. And we know from the Bible that children (before they are aware of their sin) are covered by God’s grace. David’s infant son is they key to this knowledge. 2 Samuel 12:23

Babies and young children are covered by God’s grace until they “willfully” sin. At that point, they need to come to faith in Jesus.