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James248
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How do you understand His words, “By your perseverance you will secure your lives”?
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LatinRight
Guest
God bless Cathoholic and Debbie Kono and every readers of the CAF.
The following teachings of the Catholic Church might explains or clear up your posts # 841-844 in the light of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.**
Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has
been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it
were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that
one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been
MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita
THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
WITH AN ABSOLUTE DECREE GOD PREDESTINED HIS CHOSEN SONS AND DAUGHTERS/ELECT TO HEAVEN
For the fulfilment of God’s absolute decree God MAKES His elect to cooperate with His grace without violating their free will.
For an elect to lose his SALVATION/EVERLASTING LIFE and end up in hell, that would be God’s failure and God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.
GOD IS THE ONE WHO SAVES HIS CHILDREN
John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you …”
2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”
Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”
John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
The salvation of God’s children/elect always based on God’s initiative.
Phil.1:6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
And I am sure, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Rom.8:38-39; “For I am convinced that… nothing in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – If an elect would be separated for any reason and would end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.
An elect of God, can never lose his salvation, simply means: An Elect is; Once Saved, Always Saved, can never end up in hell, because he has ETERNAL SECURITY called; God’s special grace, The Gift of Final Perseverance. – *DE FIDE * Dogma (The highest level of binding theological certainty.)
Continue
The following teachings of the Catholic Church might explains or clear up your posts # 841-844 in the light of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.**
Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has
been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it
were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that
one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been
MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita
THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
WITH AN ABSOLUTE DECREE GOD PREDESTINED HIS CHOSEN SONS AND DAUGHTERS/ELECT TO HEAVEN
For the fulfilment of God’s absolute decree God MAKES His elect to cooperate with His grace without violating their free will.
For an elect to lose his SALVATION/EVERLASTING LIFE and end up in hell, that would be God’s failure and God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.
GOD IS THE ONE WHO SAVES HIS CHILDREN
John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you …”
2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”
Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”
John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
The salvation of God’s children/elect always based on God’s initiative.
Phil.1:6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
And I am sure, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Rom.8:38-39; “For I am convinced that… nothing in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – If an elect would be separated for any reason and would end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.
An elect of God, can never lose his salvation, simply means: An Elect is; Once Saved, Always Saved, can never end up in hell, because he has ETERNAL SECURITY called; God’s special grace, The Gift of Final Perseverance. – *DE FIDE * Dogma (The highest level of binding theological certainty.)
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?
We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote.
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS.
ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT
C. Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
D. "Whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).
3.The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8).
God bless Cathoholic and Debbie Kono and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?
We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote.
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS.
ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT
C. Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
D. "Whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).
3.The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8).
God bless Cathoholic and Debbie Kono and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
P
Porknpie
Guest
Catholic’s can affirm that we are saved by faith alone, with the right understanding that our faith is made complete by works (just as scripture states). Saved by grace, through faith, working in love.As to the use of the term faith alone–
God Bless.
JustaSinner can you cite an early Church father who agrees with your interpretation of scripture above, “faith alone”, as espoused by 16th century Catholic reformers?Paul makes clear that faith alone is the instrument by which we stand justified before God
Again to my point above, where does one read of this interpretation of scripture in the early Church? If the apostles taught their descendants this “saving faith” doctrine, and their descendants the same, one should find this theological thought prior to the 16th century.They speak of the judgment of our works, not only as a test of whether we had saving faith,
Continuation
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?
We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote.
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS.
ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT
C. Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
D. "Whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).
3.The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8).
God bless Cathoholic and Debbie Kono and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
Assuming this to be definitive Catholic teaching, not much remains in conflict regarding soteriology, ISTM
C
Cathoholic
Guest
A lot of what Latin Right quotes concern ONLY the MOMENT of justification.
But after the MOMENT of justification, comes the lifelong PROCESS of justification that we are OBLIGED to carry out (in grace to be sure. Nobody here is DENYING the need for grace! So let’s not bring up that straw man again).
And I notice Latin Right when quoting the “Joint Declaration” section 37, he forgot to quote other portions of JD 37. Portions that concern this PROCESS that occurrs after that MOMENT.
. . . . “Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.”
Notice THIS concerns “Christians”. It is beyond their mere “MOMENT” (which began in Baptism).
That’s OK. Here it is (with emphasis mine). . . .
QUOTE:
4.7 The Good Works of the Justified
37.We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an OBLIGATION they MUST fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
So the question remains . . . .
JAMES 2:21-24 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
This is WHY The Council of Trent quotes the Book of Revelation saying he that is justified, let him be justified FURTHER still.
But after the MOMENT of justification, comes the lifelong PROCESS of justification that we are OBLIGED to carry out (in grace to be sure. Nobody here is DENYING the need for grace! So let’s not bring up that straw man again).
And I notice Latin Right when quoting the “Joint Declaration” section 37, he forgot to quote other portions of JD 37. Portions that concern this PROCESS that occurrs after that MOMENT.
. . . . “Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.”
Notice THIS concerns “Christians”. It is beyond their mere “MOMENT” (which began in Baptism).
That’s OK. Here it is (with emphasis mine). . . .
QUOTE:
4.7 The Good Works of the Justified
37.We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an OBLIGATION they MUST fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
So the question remains . . . .
- MUST someone who is justified “WORK”?
- Is someone who is justified OBLIGED to work?
JAMES 2:21-24 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
This is WHY The Council of Trent quotes the Book of Revelation saying he that is justified, let him be justified FURTHER still.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
drblank1. Is likely going to get on here and attempt to say this justification in James is “justification before the community” instead of . . . well . . . . instead of what the Bible says–“justification”.
drblank earlier tried to say James 2 didn’t concern justification (but only justification before men).
Read James 2 yourself (I included it below) and draw your own conclusions.
Read it and ask yourself if this is “justification” James is referring to? (Which is what the Bible says).
Or if it is mere “justification before men”? (Which is what drblank1 says).
James is going to talk about people who are “heirs of the kingdom” (sounds like salvation to me).
James is going to discuss the ROYAL LAW (This suggests something that transcends mere human law).
James says it in context of “loving your neighbor as yourself” (Jesus says the same thing in the context of salvation in Mark 12).
“The most important (commandment),” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. . . .The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. . . . When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”
James is going to talk about those who are “guilty” of transgressing the law. (Doesn’t sound like mere “civics”).
James talks about not committing murder and adultery (St. Paul talks about this too. In the context of losing . . . .SALVATION).
James is going to talk about “mercy” and “judgment” in the same context (again at least suggesting an aspect of salvation).
James asks about “profit” in the context of works, then asks something that would be non-sense if all this were is mere justification before MEN.
James asks rhetorically: “Can his faith SAVE him?” The answer of course is NO! This guys faith (notice he has “faith”) cannot save him because he is ignoring WORKS!
James says faith by itself if it has no works . . . . is a DEAD FAITH. It cannot save. This would be strange language to use if James is merely referring to justification before MEN (Something the passage never says).
James goes on and on.
He talks about Abraham offering up Isaac on a mount out in the middle of nowhere at the time (pretty strange if he was doing this to “show men” his justification. I mean Abraham had servants with but even they were not allowed to come all the way (“Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the *** (donkey); I and the lad will go yonder”). WHY keep these men AWAY . . . if this is mere “justification before men”??
Then James wraps it up saying: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (Can people SEE human “spirits”? No. Not without a special privilege. Odd language indeed if James is talking about a “show” for MEN around you (mere “justification before men”). Doesn’t make sense if all this is, is mere “justification before men”.
JAMES 2:5-26 5 Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court? 7 Is it not they who blaspheme that honorable name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill." If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 **You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. **25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
Can you really read this and conclude James is MERELY talking about justification . . . . Before MEN?
Why say something that St. Paul never says (justification by faith ALONE) . . . .
. . . . And IGNORE something that St. James says (you are NOT justified by faith alone)?
drblank earlier tried to say James 2 didn’t concern justification (but only justification before men).
Read James 2 yourself (I included it below) and draw your own conclusions.
Read it and ask yourself if this is “justification” James is referring to? (Which is what the Bible says).
Or if it is mere “justification before men”? (Which is what drblank1 says).
James is going to talk about people who are “heirs of the kingdom” (sounds like salvation to me).
James is going to discuss the ROYAL LAW (This suggests something that transcends mere human law).
James says it in context of “loving your neighbor as yourself” (Jesus says the same thing in the context of salvation in Mark 12).
“The most important (commandment),” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. . . .The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. . . . When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”
James is going to talk about those who are “guilty” of transgressing the law. (Doesn’t sound like mere “civics”).
James talks about not committing murder and adultery (St. Paul talks about this too. In the context of losing . . . .SALVATION).
James is going to talk about “mercy” and “judgment” in the same context (again at least suggesting an aspect of salvation).
James asks about “profit” in the context of works, then asks something that would be non-sense if all this were is mere justification before MEN.
James asks rhetorically: “Can his faith SAVE him?” The answer of course is NO! This guys faith (notice he has “faith”) cannot save him because he is ignoring WORKS!
James says faith by itself if it has no works . . . . is a DEAD FAITH. It cannot save. This would be strange language to use if James is merely referring to justification before MEN (Something the passage never says).
James goes on and on.
He talks about Abraham offering up Isaac on a mount out in the middle of nowhere at the time (pretty strange if he was doing this to “show men” his justification. I mean Abraham had servants with but even they were not allowed to come all the way (“Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the *** (donkey); I and the lad will go yonder”). WHY keep these men AWAY . . . if this is mere “justification before men”??
Then James wraps it up saying: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (Can people SEE human “spirits”? No. Not without a special privilege. Odd language indeed if James is talking about a “show” for MEN around you (mere “justification before men”). Doesn’t make sense if all this is, is mere “justification before men”.
JAMES 2:5-26 5 Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court? 7 Is it not they who blaspheme that honorable name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill." If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 **You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. **25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
Can you really read this and conclude James is MERELY talking about justification . . . . Before MEN?
Why say something that St. Paul never says (justification by faith ALONE) . . . .
. . . . And IGNORE something that St. James says (you are NOT justified by faith alone)?
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
We must act upon our faith.
An example is the woman who was bleeding. She had faith, a faith that told her, “If I can only touch the hem of his garment, I will be healed.” So, she got up enough courage to elbow her way through the throng around Jesus, she touched his garment, power flowed from Jesus, and she was healed.
Jesus asked, “Who touched me?” She 'fessed up, and Jesus said to her, “Your faith has saved you.”
Of course, it was not her faith that saved her, because scripture said it was the power from Jesus. But Jesus could say that it was her faith, because her faith and trust were strong enough in her so she could overcome the obstacles in the way of her faith. First there was the crowd, and then the further fact of an unclean woman touching the clothing of a man! Severe impediments to fulfilling the object of her faith. But her faith was strong enough, and she acted upon it.
The same with us. Simply possessing faith is not enough. We must act upon it, in spite of the obstacles in our way. Of course if our faith is weak, it may not be enough to move us to act. A dead faith.
An example is the woman who was bleeding. She had faith, a faith that told her, “If I can only touch the hem of his garment, I will be healed.” So, she got up enough courage to elbow her way through the throng around Jesus, she touched his garment, power flowed from Jesus, and she was healed.
Jesus asked, “Who touched me?” She 'fessed up, and Jesus said to her, “Your faith has saved you.”
Of course, it was not her faith that saved her, because scripture said it was the power from Jesus. But Jesus could say that it was her faith, because her faith and trust were strong enough in her so she could overcome the obstacles in the way of her faith. First there was the crowd, and then the further fact of an unclean woman touching the clothing of a man! Severe impediments to fulfilling the object of her faith. But her faith was strong enough, and she acted upon it.
The same with us. Simply possessing faith is not enough. We must act upon it, in spite of the obstacles in our way. Of course if our faith is weak, it may not be enough to move us to act. A dead faith.
J
James248
Guest
For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed form his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you and entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Pet. 1:5-11).
If faith needs to be supplemented, Faith alone is not enough.
If faith needs to be supplemented, Faith alone is not enough.
L
LatinRight
Guest
God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.
You said Cathoholic:
A lot of what Latin Right quotes concern ONLY the MOMENT of justification.
Yes it is true, but it is also true, God’s work in our initial justification is the most important event in our life after He elected us.
I believe, our election was the MOST IMPORTANT event in our life, because at that moment, we were IRREVOCABLY set for everlasting life in heaven from all eternity.
GOD WANTS US TO HAVE ASSURANCE OF OUR ELECTION
Phil.1:6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
And I am sure, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Rom.8:38-39; “For I am convinced that… nothing in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – If an elect would be separated for any reason and would end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.
Rom.8:16; The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
We should not live our Christian lives wondering and worrying in the paralyzed state each day whether or not we are God’s elect or God and His grace rejecting reprobates.
Rom.8:15;
For you did NOT receive the spirit of bondage again to FEAR, but you received the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION by whom we cry out “ABBA, FATHER.”
2 Pet.1:10; Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.
**In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it!
When God has given us the COMMAND to do the test our position/election, God has given us the ability to KNOW the test results. **
2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
Quote: “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.
TEST YOURSELVES.
Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote.
If we would be God and His grace rejecting Reprobates, there is no way we would BELIEVE the above Bible verses that we are God’s children/elect.
And we would NOT obey the above COMMAND of God to test ourselves to know we are elect.
Continue
You said Cathoholic:
A lot of what Latin Right quotes concern ONLY the MOMENT of justification.
Yes it is true, but it is also true, God’s work in our initial justification is the most important event in our life after He elected us.
I believe, our election was the MOST IMPORTANT event in our life, because at that moment, we were IRREVOCABLY set for everlasting life in heaven from all eternity.
GOD WANTS US TO HAVE ASSURANCE OF OUR ELECTION
Phil.1:6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
And I am sure, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Rom.8:38-39; “For I am convinced that… nothing in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – If an elect would be separated for any reason and would end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.
Rom.8:16; The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
We should not live our Christian lives wondering and worrying in the paralyzed state each day whether or not we are God’s elect or God and His grace rejecting reprobates.
Rom.8:15;
For you did NOT receive the spirit of bondage again to FEAR, but you received the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION by whom we cry out “ABBA, FATHER.”
2 Pet.1:10; Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.
**In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it!
When God has given us the COMMAND to do the test our position/election, God has given us the ability to KNOW the test results. **
2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
Quote: “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.
TEST YOURSELVES.
Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote.
If we would be God and His grace rejecting Reprobates, there is no way we would BELIEVE the above Bible verses that we are God’s children/elect.
And we would NOT obey the above COMMAND of God to test ourselves to know we are elect.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
There are two justifications in Catholic theology, INITIAL Justification and PROGRESSIVE Justification.
This is STRICTLY two separate justification and takes place two different times, if we mix this two justifications together, we create for ourselves the greatest heresy and we believe the GREATEST HERESY in Christianity.
Sadly many Christians mixing this two justifications together and they believe the GREATEST HERESY in Christianity, which culminated in their confusion and their torturous insecurity and the FEAR in the PARALIZED STATE and for this reasons their Great Commission of Matt.28:19-20, has become their Great Omission.
**AS GOD’S CHILDREN / ELECT; THE WORKS OF GOD IN OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION
Our INITIAL justification is our FIRST STAGE of our salvation.**
AT OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION we have received God’s gift of our IRREVOCABLE Salvation/Everlasting life, God has taken us (our inner man spirit + soul) up to heaven, in heaven God has built us into His Holy Temple, God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, AT THE SAME TIME (our inner man spirit + soul) is on the earth as well (in our unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and in spite of this, we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.
You see Cathoholic, at that “MOMENT” of justification, God’s chosen sons and daughters in heaven have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven they are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, AT THE SAME TIME (their inner man spirit + soul) is on the earth as well (in their unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and in spite of this, they are able to co-operate with the grace of God.
OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION is the SECOND STAGE of our salvation:
The second stage of our salvation is (as God’s elect) from the point God has performed His part of our baptism until we die.
When we die it is the end of the mystery because we are (our inner man spirit + soul) continue living only in heaven (not on the earth as well) and our corrupt unredeemed bodies goes to the grave.
In our second stage of salvation, we carry out our progressive justification by Faith + Works, by our cooperation with the grace of God.
This is the time when we could and we should put under our belts **as much supernatural works as we can.
**
FOR US AS GOD’S CHOSEN SONS AND DAUGHTERS THIS WORK IS NOT A CONDITION TO ENTER HEAVEN
How could be this work is a condition for us to enter heaven, when at our initial justification God has ALREADY built us (inner man spirit + soul) into His Holy Temple, in heaven we are ALREADY sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus?
You see Cathoholoc, NOTHING can be a condition for us to enter heaven, and how could be any condition for us to enter heaven when we are ALREADY in heaven. – Our position in heaven, can never be revoked!!!
There is ONLY ONE CONDITION for us to enter heaven, that one condition is God’s election, this condition is ALREADY fulfilled from all eternity. – *DE FIDE *Dogma of the Catholic Church!!!
While for us, our good works/supernatural works/works of love is NOT A CONDITION to enter heaven, (we are inner man spirit + soul) ALREADY in heaven, just about every of my posts I encouraged everyone to do as much good works as possible. – Rom.4:4; 1 Cor.3:12-15; etc.
I too, work hard to do as much good works as I can.
For us to do good works is utmost important for many reasons.
It is not enough only to work, our works must be up to the standard of supernatural works, if it is not up to, our works count for nothing.
Continue
There are two justifications in Catholic theology, INITIAL Justification and PROGRESSIVE Justification.
This is STRICTLY two separate justification and takes place two different times, if we mix this two justifications together, we create for ourselves the greatest heresy and we believe the GREATEST HERESY in Christianity.
Sadly many Christians mixing this two justifications together and they believe the GREATEST HERESY in Christianity, which culminated in their confusion and their torturous insecurity and the FEAR in the PARALIZED STATE and for this reasons their Great Commission of Matt.28:19-20, has become their Great Omission.
**AS GOD’S CHILDREN / ELECT; THE WORKS OF GOD IN OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION
Our INITIAL justification is our FIRST STAGE of our salvation.**
AT OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION we have received God’s gift of our IRREVOCABLE Salvation/Everlasting life, God has taken us (our inner man spirit + soul) up to heaven, in heaven God has built us into His Holy Temple, God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, AT THE SAME TIME (our inner man spirit + soul) is on the earth as well (in our unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and in spite of this, we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.
You see Cathoholic, at that “MOMENT” of justification, God’s chosen sons and daughters in heaven have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven they are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, AT THE SAME TIME (their inner man spirit + soul) is on the earth as well (in their unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and in spite of this, they are able to co-operate with the grace of God.
OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION is the SECOND STAGE of our salvation:
The second stage of our salvation is (as God’s elect) from the point God has performed His part of our baptism until we die.
When we die it is the end of the mystery because we are (our inner man spirit + soul) continue living only in heaven (not on the earth as well) and our corrupt unredeemed bodies goes to the grave.
In our second stage of salvation, we carry out our progressive justification by Faith + Works, by our cooperation with the grace of God.
This is the time when we could and we should put under our belts **as much supernatural works as we can.
**
FOR US AS GOD’S CHOSEN SONS AND DAUGHTERS THIS WORK IS NOT A CONDITION TO ENTER HEAVEN
How could be this work is a condition for us to enter heaven, when at our initial justification God has ALREADY built us (inner man spirit + soul) into His Holy Temple, in heaven we are ALREADY sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus?
You see Cathoholoc, NOTHING can be a condition for us to enter heaven, and how could be any condition for us to enter heaven when we are ALREADY in heaven. – Our position in heaven, can never be revoked!!!
There is ONLY ONE CONDITION for us to enter heaven, that one condition is God’s election, this condition is ALREADY fulfilled from all eternity. – *DE FIDE *Dogma of the Catholic Church!!!
While for us, our good works/supernatural works/works of love is NOT A CONDITION to enter heaven, (we are inner man spirit + soul) ALREADY in heaven, just about every of my posts I encouraged everyone to do as much good works as possible. – Rom.4:4; 1 Cor.3:12-15; etc.
I too, work hard to do as much good works as I can.
For us to do good works is utmost important for many reasons.
It is not enough only to work, our works must be up to the standard of supernatural works, if it is not up to, our works count for nothing.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING
Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its
object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL
GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the
Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY
KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasis added.
**If we not set free to love freely, ** we cannot love.
**If we not set free to freely decide to work, ** we cannot do supernatural work/merit.
We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,
WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we
MUST do is NOT supernatural work, because we do it for our own interest!!!**
**Supernatural work is: **
Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,
**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,
**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.
THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS
“The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD.
The works we must do, we do it for our own interest, this works contains no love neither for God, nor for other person.
The works we do out of SHEER LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD contains love, this is called, works of love.
The only our work is good work/supernatural work which contains love for God or for others – WORKS OF LOVE.
This is the only WORKS OF LOVE rewarded by God at the judgment of our works (1 Cor.3:12-15).
For easy understanding consider, our works as a vessel which contains the love which given through our works to God’s Glory or to others. – God rewards the love that the work/vessel contains.
The work done for our own interest contains neither love for God nor love for others, this works are NOT WORKS OF LOVE!!!
And as far as God’s rewards concern, these works are empty works/vessels, wood, hay and straw, goes up in smoke at the judgment.
THE WAY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS
If we work for the reason to achieve our salvation that is not good works/supernatural works.
If we work for the reason to keep our salvation that is not good works/supernatural works.
If we work for the reason to get reward in heaven that is “usury,” it is not good works/supernatural works.
Continue
**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING
Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its
object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL
GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the
Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY
KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasis added.
**If we not set free to love freely, ** we cannot love.
**If we not set free to freely decide to work, ** we cannot do supernatural work/merit.
We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,
WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we
MUST do is NOT supernatural work, because we do it for our own interest!!!**
**Supernatural work is: **
Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,
**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,
**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.
THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS
“The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD.
The works we must do, we do it for our own interest, this works contains no love neither for God, nor for other person.
The works we do out of SHEER LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD contains love, this is called, works of love.
The only our work is good work/supernatural work which contains love for God or for others – WORKS OF LOVE.
This is the only WORKS OF LOVE rewarded by God at the judgment of our works (1 Cor.3:12-15).
For easy understanding consider, our works as a vessel which contains the love which given through our works to God’s Glory or to others. – God rewards the love that the work/vessel contains.
The work done for our own interest contains neither love for God nor love for others, this works are NOT WORKS OF LOVE!!!
And as far as God’s rewards concern, these works are empty works/vessels, wood, hay and straw, goes up in smoke at the judgment.
THE WAY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS
If we work for the reason to achieve our salvation that is not good works/supernatural works.
If we work for the reason to keep our salvation that is not good works/supernatural works.
If we work for the reason to get reward in heaven that is “usury,” it is not good works/supernatural works.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
SUMMARY
**There are two Justifications in Catholic Theology, Initial and Progressive.
INITIAL JUSTIFICATION**
It is God’s free gift, it is solely the works of God, it was is an instant event at that pint when God performed His part in our baptism.
At our initial justification we have been born again and God took us our (inner man spirit + soul) up to heaven.
**RESULTS OF OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION
Our INITIAL justification is our FIRST STAGE of our salvation.**
AT OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION we have received God’s gift of our IRREVOCABLE Salvation/Everlasting life, God has taken us (our inner man spirit + soul) up to heaven, in heaven God has built us into His Holy Temple, God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
AT THE SAME TIME (our inner man spirit + soul) is on the earth as well (in our unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and in spite of this, we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.
**PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION
OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION is the SECOND STAGE of our salvation:**
The second stage of our salvation is (as God’s elect) from the point God has performed His part in our baptism until we die.
When we die it is the end of the mystery because we are (our inner man spirit + soul) continue living only in heaven (not on the earth as well) and our corrupt unredeemed bodies goes to the grave.
In our second stage of salvation, we work on our progressive justification, and we doing many other different Christian works by Faith + Works, by our cooperation with the grace of God.
This is the time when we could and we should put under our belts as much supernatural works as we can.
FOUR THEOLOGICAL FACTS WE MUST KNOW FOR THE PURITY OF THE GOSPEL AND FOR OUR SECURITY
FIRST THEOLOGICAL FACT
**AT THE FIRST STAGE OF OUR SALVATION (At our Initial Justification) **
As God’s free gift, we have received our IRREVOCABLE Salvation/Everlasting life by grace alone (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, apart from works (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
Heaven is God’s free gift, given by God to His elect, it is an irrevocable gift.
SECOND THEOLOGICAL FACT
**THE SECOND STAGE OF OUR SALVATION IS: Our Progressive Justification. **
Our Progressive Justification done by Faith + Works by our cooperation with the grace of God.
The elect’s works which are not up to God’s Standard of supernatural works count for nothing at all, rejected by God, but they are still free to stay in heaven without an iota work which is count for anything, of course they have no rewards in heaven. – Rom.4:4-6; 1 Cor.3:12-15.
THIRD THEOLOGICAL FACT
Those who are mixing together Initial Justification with Progressive Justification and if teaching it, they are teaching the GREATEST HERESY in Christianity.
The heresy in it is:
We not only have to work (Faith + Works) for God’s rewards in heaven, but we have to work (Faith + Works) for heaven as well.
Yet in reality and it is Theological Fact, heaven is God’s free gift, the elect received it at their Initial Justification, by Grace alone, by Faith alone, Apart from works and it is irrevocable!!!
**Theological facts: **
IN OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION; As God’s free gift, we have received heaven by Grace alone, by Faith alone, Apart from works.
IN OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION; as God’s elect, we working by Faith + Works, and God will rewards our works in heaven if our works are up to the standard of supernatural works, if our works are not up to the standard of supernatural works, then no rewards, yet we still keep heaven. – Heaven is God’s irrevocable free gift of His elect.
FOURTH THEOLOGICAL FACT
GOD WANTS US TO HAVE ASSURANCE OF OUR ELECTION
Rom.8:16; The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. – Meaning God’s children/elect.
Rom.8:15;
For you did NOT receive the spirit of bondage again to FEAR, but you received the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION by whom we cry out “ABBA, FATHER.” – Meaning God’s children/elect.
2 Pet.1:10; Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.
**In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it!
When God has given us the COMMAND to do the test our position/election, God has given us the ability to KNOW the test results.
2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
Quote: “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.
TEST YOURSELVES.
Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote.
If we would be God and His grace rejecting Reprobates, there is no way we would BELIEVE the above Bible verses that we are God’s children/elect.
And we would NOT obey the above COMMAND of God to test ourselves to know we are elect.
God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight**
SUMMARY
**There are two Justifications in Catholic Theology, Initial and Progressive.
INITIAL JUSTIFICATION**
It is God’s free gift, it is solely the works of God, it was is an instant event at that pint when God performed His part in our baptism.
At our initial justification we have been born again and God took us our (inner man spirit + soul) up to heaven.
**RESULTS OF OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION
Our INITIAL justification is our FIRST STAGE of our salvation.**
AT OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION we have received God’s gift of our IRREVOCABLE Salvation/Everlasting life, God has taken us (our inner man spirit + soul) up to heaven, in heaven God has built us into His Holy Temple, God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
AT THE SAME TIME (our inner man spirit + soul) is on the earth as well (in our unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and in spite of this, we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.
**PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION
OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION is the SECOND STAGE of our salvation:**
The second stage of our salvation is (as God’s elect) from the point God has performed His part in our baptism until we die.
When we die it is the end of the mystery because we are (our inner man spirit + soul) continue living only in heaven (not on the earth as well) and our corrupt unredeemed bodies goes to the grave.
In our second stage of salvation, we work on our progressive justification, and we doing many other different Christian works by Faith + Works, by our cooperation with the grace of God.
This is the time when we could and we should put under our belts as much supernatural works as we can.
FOUR THEOLOGICAL FACTS WE MUST KNOW FOR THE PURITY OF THE GOSPEL AND FOR OUR SECURITY
FIRST THEOLOGICAL FACT
**AT THE FIRST STAGE OF OUR SALVATION (At our Initial Justification) **
As God’s free gift, we have received our IRREVOCABLE Salvation/Everlasting life by grace alone (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, apart from works (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
Heaven is God’s free gift, given by God to His elect, it is an irrevocable gift.
SECOND THEOLOGICAL FACT
**THE SECOND STAGE OF OUR SALVATION IS: Our Progressive Justification. **
Our Progressive Justification done by Faith + Works by our cooperation with the grace of God.
The elect’s works which are not up to God’s Standard of supernatural works count for nothing at all, rejected by God, but they are still free to stay in heaven without an iota work which is count for anything, of course they have no rewards in heaven. – Rom.4:4-6; 1 Cor.3:12-15.
THIRD THEOLOGICAL FACT
Those who are mixing together Initial Justification with Progressive Justification and if teaching it, they are teaching the GREATEST HERESY in Christianity.
The heresy in it is:
We not only have to work (Faith + Works) for God’s rewards in heaven, but we have to work (Faith + Works) for heaven as well.
Yet in reality and it is Theological Fact, heaven is God’s free gift, the elect received it at their Initial Justification, by Grace alone, by Faith alone, Apart from works and it is irrevocable!!!
**Theological facts: **
IN OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION; As God’s free gift, we have received heaven by Grace alone, by Faith alone, Apart from works.
IN OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION; as God’s elect, we working by Faith + Works, and God will rewards our works in heaven if our works are up to the standard of supernatural works, if our works are not up to the standard of supernatural works, then no rewards, yet we still keep heaven. – Heaven is God’s irrevocable free gift of His elect.
FOURTH THEOLOGICAL FACT
GOD WANTS US TO HAVE ASSURANCE OF OUR ELECTION
Rom.8:16; The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. – Meaning God’s children/elect.
Rom.8:15;
For you did NOT receive the spirit of bondage again to FEAR, but you received the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION by whom we cry out “ABBA, FATHER.” – Meaning God’s children/elect.
2 Pet.1:10; Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.
**In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it!
When God has given us the COMMAND to do the test our position/election, God has given us the ability to KNOW the test results.
2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
Quote: “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.
TEST YOURSELVES.
Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote.
If we would be God and His grace rejecting Reprobates, there is no way we would BELIEVE the above Bible verses that we are God’s children/elect.
And we would NOT obey the above COMMAND of God to test ourselves to know we are elect.
God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight**
C
Cathoholic
Guest
LatinRight.
Regarding your last triple-cluster post, tl;dr (I didn’t need to read it).
LatinRight. I have explained all of this to you before (but it is like you are ignoring any real dialogue).
Many of the points you bring up are correct (but you often inappropritely draw wrong conclusions from them)
Some of your (name removed by moderator)ut is just plain wrong.
Others are partial truths over-emphasizing one aspect of Catholic teaching while ignoring others.
Others are straw men like your repititiously asking if the elect can and up in Hell, or if the Reprobate can end up in Heaven when all the readers know, by definition this does not take place.
It’s like repititiously asking: “If you just ate only one piece of cake with frosting did you just have only one piece of cake without frosting?”
Do you think God prdestines one . . . ANYONE. . . . for Hell.?
Regarding your last triple-cluster post, tl;dr (I didn’t need to read it).
LatinRight. I have explained all of this to you before (but it is like you are ignoring any real dialogue).
Many of the points you bring up are correct (but you often inappropritely draw wrong conclusions from them)
Some of your (name removed by moderator)ut is just plain wrong.
Others are partial truths over-emphasizing one aspect of Catholic teaching while ignoring others.
Others are straw men like your repititiously asking if the elect can and up in Hell, or if the Reprobate can end up in Heaven when all the readers know, by definition this does not take place.
It’s like repititiously asking: “If you just ate only one piece of cake with frosting did you just have only one piece of cake without frosting?”
Do you think God prdestines one . . . ANYONE. . . . for Hell.?
L
LatinRight
Guest
**God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.LatinRight.
LatinRight. I have explained all of this to you before (but it is like you are ignoring any real dialogue).
Do you think God prdestines one . . . ANYONE. . . . for Hell.?
YOUR QUESTION CATHOHOLIK
Do you think God predestines one . . . ANYONE. . . . for Hell.?**
This is an extremely important question and the correct answer is crucially important!!!
About 4 – 5 month ago before I started to study this question, I thought God predestined the majority of the human race to hell, now I think God predestined no one to hell.
**Please follow my lines of reasoning and I like to have your view on them.
FIRST LINE OF REASONING
UNTIL WE ARE IN THE STATE OF GRACE – We can do nothing. **
Matthew 19:25-26 (NIV)
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
- Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
44. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
- It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
**FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS
Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination? **
Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.
Meaning man does NOTHING, to enter the state of justification.
**COUNCIL OF TRENT **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
Continue
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LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
GOD IS THE ONE WHO SAVES HIS CHILDREN
John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you …”
John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
The salvation of God’s children always based on God’s initiative.
THEOLOGICAL FACT
Until we are in Christ, in the state of grace, we are spiritually dead, we are lost and we can do nothing.
SECOND LINE OF REASONING – For even before God considers human merits, He predestines,
Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.
Meaning man does NOTHING, to enter the state of justification.
GOD IS THE ONE WHO SAVES HIS CHILDREN
John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you …”
John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
The salvation of God’s children always based on God’s initiative.
THEOLOGICAL FACT
Until we are in Christ, in the state of grace, we are spiritually dead, we are lost and we can do nothing.
SECOND LINE OF REASONING – For even before God considers human merits, He predestines,
Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.
Meaning man does NOTHING, to enter the state of justification.
- God predestined His children even before He considered their human merit. – Of course God couldn’t consider their merit, because all their merits later, are His gift, and if some of them later will have no merit at all, they still have their God’s gift of heaven (1 Cor.3:12-15; Rom.4:4-6; etc.).
- We can conclude; God saved His children, not for their future merit, but because the mercy, love and the will of God, and we all know, the will of God is that everyone saved.
- So, what is the difference between the elect and the reprobates? According to Rom.3:10-20; nothing is different between them, v.11. “There is none who seeks after God.” v. 12. “There is none who does good, no, not one.”
- Why was no difference between them?
Rom.3:10-20; “There is none who does good, no, not one.” John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
**THIRD LINE OF REASONING
THE WILL OF GOD IS THAT EVERYONE SAVED – Why then God’s will frustrated, and He saves only a few people??? **
Why then God’s will frustrated and **apart from a few people, everyone goes to hell?
**
**The explanations of the different Churches:
Protestant Church:**
As far as I know; God shows His Mercy on the elect, and God shows His Justice on the reprobates. – What I cannot see, where is God’s Love and Justice in it?
Catholic Church:
The following excerpts taken out from James Akin excellent work (the best and the clearest work I ever read on this subject); A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP By James Akin.
Quote: Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, **whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. **
This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others.
According to Aquinas, “[Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, efficaciously for some, but sufficiently for all, because the price of his blood is sufficient for the salvation of all; but it has its effect only in the elect.” End quote.
Now James Akin speaking:
Quote: One may say that although the sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, its efficiency is limited.
This is something everyone who believes in hell must acknowledge because, if the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell. – Something to think about. End quote.
This is above the best and clearest explanation I ever read on the reason the majority of the human race going to the pains of hell for all eternity.
“If the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell.”
So, God predestined a few people to heaven without considering their merits (of course, all future merit is God’s gifts, so no merit to consider) to show His love and mercy, and God also predestined the majority of the human race positively (randomly) to hell, to show His Justice by punishing them forever in hell, who can do nothing in the first place to save themselves.
The will of God is that everyone saved, yet as we see above, God saves only a few people.
FOURTH LINE OF REASONING – I will draw all people to myself/Universal Salvation, which is the will of God.
Rom.5:18; Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Titus 2:11; For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all people. – Please see, the THIRD LINE OF REASONING explains; this grace is EFFICACIOUS GRACE which appeared to all people and saves all people.
**Efficacious Grace is perfect in accomplishing the salvation of all man. **
1 John 2:2; He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. – Even a corrupt justice system doesn’t punish the same crime twice.
1 Cor.15:22; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Col.1:20; and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
2 Pet.3:9; The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.
Instead he is patient with you, **not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. **
1 Tim.2:4; God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
John 12:32; And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
As we see above, the will of God is Universal Salvation.
Continue
**THIRD LINE OF REASONING
THE WILL OF GOD IS THAT EVERYONE SAVED – Why then God’s will frustrated, and He saves only a few people??? **
Why then God’s will frustrated and **apart from a few people, everyone goes to hell?
**
**The explanations of the different Churches:
Protestant Church:**
As far as I know; God shows His Mercy on the elect, and God shows His Justice on the reprobates. – What I cannot see, where is God’s Love and Justice in it?
Catholic Church:
The following excerpts taken out from James Akin excellent work (the best and the clearest work I ever read on this subject); A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP By James Akin.
Quote: Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, **whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. **
This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others.
According to Aquinas, “[Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, efficaciously for some, but sufficiently for all, because the price of his blood is sufficient for the salvation of all; but it has its effect only in the elect.” End quote.
Now James Akin speaking:
Quote: One may say that although the sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, its efficiency is limited.
This is something everyone who believes in hell must acknowledge because, if the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell. – Something to think about. End quote.
This is above the best and clearest explanation I ever read on the reason the majority of the human race going to the pains of hell for all eternity.
“If the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell.”
So, God predestined a few people to heaven without considering their merits (of course, all future merit is God’s gifts, so no merit to consider) to show His love and mercy, and God also predestined the majority of the human race positively (randomly) to hell, to show His Justice by punishing them forever in hell, who can do nothing in the first place to save themselves.
The will of God is that everyone saved, yet as we see above, God saves only a few people.
FOURTH LINE OF REASONING – I will draw all people to myself/Universal Salvation, which is the will of God.
Rom.5:18; Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Titus 2:11; For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all people. – Please see, the THIRD LINE OF REASONING explains; this grace is EFFICACIOUS GRACE which appeared to all people and saves all people.
**Efficacious Grace is perfect in accomplishing the salvation of all man. **
1 John 2:2; He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. – Even a corrupt justice system doesn’t punish the same crime twice.
1 Cor.15:22; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Col.1:20; and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
2 Pet.3:9; The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.
Instead he is patient with you, **not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. **
1 Tim.2:4; God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
John 12:32; And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
As we see above, the will of God is Universal Salvation.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
FIFTH LINE OF REASONING – The example of the Universal Salvation of Nineveh.
**1. GOD’S PROMISE TO NINEVEH: **
Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”
1. GOD’S PROMISE TO THE HUMAN RACE:
**
Apart from a few people “I will throw everyone to hell.”**
2. GOD HAS CHANGED HIS MIND and didn’t bring on the destruction on Nineveh.
Jonah 3:10; When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.
Of course, God saved the more then hundred and twenty thousand persons in Nineveh as it is described below.
**2. GOD WILL CHANGE HIS MIND in the same way as in Nineveh and will don’t bring destruction/hell on the human race. **
John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.” – For this very reason, (and others) God will save the human race in its entirety as following.
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
The salvation of God’s children always based on God’s initiative.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
God has the ability, the way He saved Nineveh, the same way He can and will save the human race. – After all, it is His will that everyone saved, only He can do it, apart from Him (He acting in us) we can do nothing.
**3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR NINEVEH:
**
Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?
3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR THE HUMAN RACE:
John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
John 12:32; And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
1 Cor.15:22; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Do you think Cathoholic the third line of reasoning is correct or the fourth and the fifth lines of reasoning correct?
I promise I don’t ignoring any dialogue and I’m ready for any real dialogue.
God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
FIFTH LINE OF REASONING – The example of the Universal Salvation of Nineveh.
**1. GOD’S PROMISE TO NINEVEH: **
Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”
1. GOD’S PROMISE TO THE HUMAN RACE:
**
Apart from a few people “I will throw everyone to hell.”**
2. GOD HAS CHANGED HIS MIND and didn’t bring on the destruction on Nineveh.
Jonah 3:10; When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.
Of course, God saved the more then hundred and twenty thousand persons in Nineveh as it is described below.
**2. GOD WILL CHANGE HIS MIND in the same way as in Nineveh and will don’t bring destruction/hell on the human race. **
John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.” – For this very reason, (and others) God will save the human race in its entirety as following.
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
The salvation of God’s children always based on God’s initiative.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
God has the ability, the way He saved Nineveh, the same way He can and will save the human race. – After all, it is His will that everyone saved, only He can do it, apart from Him (He acting in us) we can do nothing.
**3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR NINEVEH:
**
Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?
3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR THE HUMAN RACE:
John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
John 12:32; And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
1 Cor.15:22; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Do you think Cathoholic the third line of reasoning is correct or the fourth and the fifth lines of reasoning correct?
I promise I don’t ignoring any dialogue and I’m ready for any real dialogue.
God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
C
Cathoholic
Guest
This amounts to filibustering.
You don’t assert predestination ALONE, based on the affirmation of predestination and ignoring free will.
When God predestines mankind, He knows their free will.
It is a mystery as to how this works (predestination along WITH free will). But Catholics affirm BOTH.
Trying to manufacture predestination without free will is an invention.
You don’t assert predestination ALONE, based on the affirmation of predestination and ignoring free will.
When God predestines mankind, He knows their free will.
It is a mystery as to how this works (predestination along WITH free will). But Catholics affirm BOTH.
Trying to manufacture predestination without free will is an invention.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
There has also been a misguided mixing up of God’s prevenient grace (God making the first move towards us), with justifying grace.
This is a serious error.
This is a serious error.
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