Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

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I can’t believe I’m posting in this thread again. 🙂

However, if you want the Baptist interpretation of James 2:24 then here is a sermon by a Southern Baptist Preacher. It is about 29 minutes long but he is a good speaker so it isn’t boring. This is in line with what I have consistently been taught about this passage.

vimeo.com/227005111

Edit, the sermon really starts about 2 minutes into the video…
 
ajcstr said:
But there are 2 ways to view this:

1 - You have persevered, therefore you are the elect

or

2 - You are the elect, therefore you will persevere
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From the Augustinian/Thomistic standpoint–“2”. is true.
 
mackbrislawn said:
Is there a practical difference? Or semantics?
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This is the fundamental question of whether God causes us to believe and persevere because He choose and elected us (as Augustine, Bernard of Clairvaux, Anselm, Aquinas, etc. taught) vs. God electing us because He foresaw that we would work with His grace in believing and persevering.

As Augustine says:
On the Predestination of the Saints (Book I) Chp. 34 (XVII)
“Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,— not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. John 15:16”
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Chp. 98 Enchiridion - “And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.”
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Chp. 100 Enchiridion “…He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has predestined to punishment, and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has predestined to grace.”
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And as Bernard of Clairvaux says:
“With this glue hath that Divine Intuition glued us unto Himself from the foundation of the world, that we might be holy and without spot in His sight, in love. For we know that he that is born of God sinneth not, because the heavenly begetting keepeth him. And the heavenly begetting is the eternal predestination whereby God foresaw that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. Of these none sinneth—i. e. persevereth in sin; because the Lord knows those that are His, and the purpose of God remaineth stedfast. And though the mark of ever so horrible crimes bo burnt into David, and Mary Magdalene be overwhelmed with seven devils, and the chief of the Apostles be sunk in the abyss of denial, there is none that can take them out of the hand of God. For whom He hath predestinated him He hath called, and whom He hath called him He hath justified.”—St. Bernard’s Works. Paris Ed. 1640, p. 364.
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Or, as Anselm notes in his commentary on Romans 9:14:
“The grace of the Redeemer alone makes the division in the one common mass of original perdition. And whereas the whole world might justly be condemned, God has mercy upon one, and has not mercy upon another; that is, does not soften his heart,—hardens him. And in this He is not unjust. For a monarch claims the right of pardoning one criminal, and putting to death another. And this is what God does.”
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Finally, as Aquinas notes in his Summa Theologica:
"Reply to Objection 3. The reason for the predestination of some, and reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God…God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Romans 9:22-23): “What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory”…Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): “Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.’”
newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article3
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Of course, as all of the above affirm, God’s sovereignty in salvation does not contradict the responsibility of each and every individual to believe in Christ and persevere vs. rejecting and turning from Christ (nor does it remove our responsibility to do all in our power to lead others to Christ and to encourage our fellow believers to persevere and grow in their faith). Rather, it simply affirms that even as we “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling” we must attribute our faith and perseverance (and the faith and perseverance of others) entirely to God’s sovereign working.

Further, God has ordained that the actions we choose to take–for example, prayers for the salvation of others (e.g. “that all men might be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth”)–can have a real and saving impact on their souls. Conversely–He has ordained that our sinful actions or inaction can have the opposite impact on the souls of others. Consequently, while it is a mystery how it all works, God’s sovereignty in salvation by no means undermines our efforts to bring the Salvation of Christ to every creature under heaven. Rather, it can strengthen our resolve–for God is strong (as Augustine said) to overcome the wicked will of every man, so that they might repent and believe the Gospel.

Augustine–on the strength of God’s will over the will of wicked men:
Chp. 97 Enchiridion “…Our Lord says plainly, however, in the Gospel, when upbraiding the impious city: How often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! as if the will of God had been overcome by the will of men, and when the weakest stood in the way with their want of will, the will of the strongest could not be carried out. And where is that omnipotence which has done all that it pleased on earth and in heaven, if God willed to gather together the children of Jerusalem, and did not accomplish it? Or rather, Jerusalem was not willing that her children should be gathered together? But even though she was unwilling, He gathered together as many of her children as He wished: for He does not will some things and do them, and will others and do them not; but He has done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth.”
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In view of this we can fervently pray that God would have mercy in granting salvation to all those who are without Christ in this world, knowing that our faithful prayers are themselves due to God’s gracious and sovereign working in and through us (instrumentally) to accomplish His purposes.

JustaSinner

p.s. As usual–it may be a week or more before I have time to participate in this thread.
 
Hello lanman87, I saw the video you posted. Good preaching, but nothing new there. The James v’s Paul passage was worn out on the last thread. Everyone wanted to talk over each other to get their points. No one wanted to actually reason it out.

But the preacher was right, James and Paul were not addressing the same subject.
And it’s true James was trying to correct a problem by those who did not want to make any faith-investments into good works.

But I might add that nowhere in James does he address the subject of how one receives eternal life, at all. That was not his purpose for writing. The … "Can faith save him? … " of (2:14) needs a follow up question. Save him from what? … from eternal death? or temporal?.. Hummm…

Again, James context is not eternal but temporal based on the theme found in chapter 1:21 For James it was all about the saving of the soul.=LIFE

To the contrary, Paul addressed it only in it’s eternal context every time.
The contrasted illustrations James provided were typical proverbs type: Death v’s LIFE.
Was that eternal death?.. or temporal? … hummm …

It makes for great debate, but the last thread went sower in my view.
 
mackbrislawn said:
Is there a practical difference? Or semantics?
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There is a practical difference, in the first, we must cooperate with the grace we receive and persevere in our walk with Christ. We can stumble in this one.

In the second, we cannot fail and will persevere because of grace.
 
lanman87 said:
I can’t believe I’m posting in this thread again. 🙂

However, if you want the Baptist interpretation of James 2:24 then here is a sermon by a Southern Baptist Preacher. It is about 29 minutes long but he is a good speaker so it isn’t boring. This is in line with what I have consistently been taught about this passage.

vimeo.com/227005111

Edit, the sermon really starts about 2 minutes into the video…
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Amen, but I would guess you would probably say that obedience is not a work. Again we use the same words (works) but mean different things by them. I think this sermon could have given at a Catholic Mass (without the buzzwords “saved”, “born again” etc) without a flinch - first 20 min at least.
 
ajcstr said:
Amen, but I would guess you would probably say that obedience is not a work. Again we use the same words (works) but mean different things by them. I think this sermon could have given at a Catholic Mass (without the buzzwords “saved”, “born again” etc) without a flinch - first 20 min at least.
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He did a much better job of saying things I tried to say earlier in this thread.

The question of obedience being a work is a tricky one. I think it boils down to why we are doing the works. If I’m trying to earn the gift of Grace and ultimately the Gift of Eternal Life then it is legalism. God’s gifts are free and can’t be earned by works of righteousness.

However, if I’m doing a work of righteousness because Christ has changed me, given me a new heart, adopted me… then I’m being obedient to Christ and the Holy Spirit that lives within me. I’m living in the grace and love of God given to me through my (as the pastor put it, dynamic) faith in Christ. In not trying to earn the gifts of God. Instead, I’m using the gifts God is giving me to draw others to Christ and to minister to those around me.
 
lanman87 said:
He did a much better job of saying things I tried to say earlier in this thread.

The question of obedience being a work is a tricky one. I think it boils down to why we are doing the works. If I’m trying to earn the gift of Grace and ultimately the Gift of Eternal Life then it is legalism. God’s gifts are free and can’t be earned by works of righteousness.

However, if I’m doing a work of righteousness because Christ has changed me, given me a new heart, adopted me… then I’m being obedient to Christ and the Holy Spirit that lives within me. I’m living in the grace and love of God given to me through my (as the pastor put it, dynamic) faith in Christ. In not trying to earn the gifts of God. Instead, I’m using the gifts God is giving me to draw others to Christ and to minister to those around me.
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Understood, but because we view the concept of “work” differently, “faith alone” means something different to you than it does to me. I would not call what the pastor is describing “faith alone” as you would yet we both agree with what he is saying.
 
ajcstr said:
Understood, but because we view the concept of “work” differently, “faith alone” means something different to you than it does to me. I would not call what the pastor is describing “faith alone” as you would yet we both agree with what he is saying.
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That’s true. And what does Scripture mean by faith, most every time it is used?
 
lanman87 said:
He did a much better job of saying things I tried to say earlier in this thread.

The question of obedience being a work is a tricky one. I think it boils down to why we are doing the works. If I’m trying to earn the gift of Grace and ultimately the Gift of Eternal Life then it is legalism. God’s gifts are free and can’t be earned by works of righteousness.

However, if I’m doing a work of righteousness because Christ has changed me, given me a new heart, adopted me… then I’m being obedient to Christ and the Holy Spirit that lives within me. I’m living in the grace and love of God given to me through my (as the pastor put it, dynamic) faith in Christ. In not trying to earn the gifts of God. Instead, I’m using the gifts God is giving me to draw others to Christ and to minister to those around me.
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Or you can simply say, “Works done by faith justify”. If they are works done by faith, then they cannot be done for unfaithful reasons.
 
tgGodsway said:
Hello lanman87, I saw the video you posted. Good preaching, but nothing new there. The James v’s Paul passage was worn out on the last thread. Everyone wanted to talk over each other to get their points. No one wanted to actually reason it out.

But the preacher was right, James and Paul were not addressing the same subject.
And it’s true James was trying to correct a problem by those who did not want to make any faith-investments into good works.

But I might add that nowhere in James does he address the subject of how one receives eternal life, at all. That was not his purpose for writing. The … "Can faith save him? … " of (2:14) needs a follow up question. Save him from what? … from eternal death? or temporal?.. Hummm…

Again, James context is not eternal but temporal based on the theme found in chapter 1:21 For James it was all about the saving of the soul.=LIFE

To the contrary, Paul addressed it only in it’s eternal context every time.
The contrasted illustrations James provided were typical proverbs type: Death v’s LIFE.
Was that eternal death?.. or temporal? … hummm …

It makes for great debate, but the last thread went sower in my view.
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You’ll have to explain why James isn’t talking about eternal life when he mentions the demons who undergo eternal punishment.
 
tgGodsway said:
Okay I will soon.
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I would actually argue the opposite. Paul often Teaches about Initial Justification, which has not come to us because we were faithful, but because we were unfaithful. Jesus offers His own justification because we are unjust! We receive freely, and apart from works of righteousness we are given the righteous gift of pardon and life through Jesus.

James emphasizes the condition of abiding in His forgiveness and life.

Faith is how we see and know the spiritual realities of hope and goodness. Our salvation depends on manifesting faith in our lives. It is the difference of being faithful or simply believing in vain.

Paul addresses this many times, with expressions like “if we hold fast” and “provided we suffer with Him” and “provided we continue in His kindness”. Those are the ways Paul says what James is saying in his letter.

There is either a saving faith, or there is “disowning the faith” by not allowing faith to work in us.
 
Okay, I 'm back. I have a job, wife and family that come first.

I made the statement that James wrote his letter and offered no instructions about how one receives or maintains eternal life. I stand by my statements. His entire letter deals with the temporal including his examples of faith in action.

someone brought up the fact that demons believe and tremble therefore James does talk about the eternal. That is ridiculous. James uses his own Objector to debate himself in James 2:18, 19. You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith from your works, and I will show you from my works, my faith. You believe that there is one God; you do well. the demons also believe and tremble."

The argument which these words express appears to be a reduction ad absurdum (a reduction to absurdity.) It is heavy with irony. It is absurd. says the objector "to see a close connection between faith and works. for the sake of argument, let’s say you have faith and I have works. You can no more start with what you believe and show it to me in your works, than I can start with my works and demonstrate what it is that I believe. the Objector is confident that both tasked are impossible. The objector then offers a small illustration, "Men and demons both believe the same truth (that there is one god), but their faith does not produce the same response. Although this article of faith may move a man to do well, it never moves the demons to do well. All they can do is tremble. Faith and works, therefore, have no built in connection at all, says the objector.

None of this has anything to do with a call to eternal life nor how one maintains that life. If you begin on the premise that Justification is NOT a settled matter until your last day on earth when you die, then this issue will never be settled. It is an ongoing matter leaving much fear and insecurity in it’s wake.
 
tgGodsway said:
… If you begin on the premise that Justification is NOT a settled matter until your last day on earth when you die, then this issue will never be settled. It is an ongoing matter leaving much fear and insecurity in it’s wake.
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Maybe that’s why the Apostle has encouraged the faithful to “work out their salvation in fear and trembling”.

But I’m not suggesting we cant, or should not have confidence in our present state of justification. And His love should be what compels us to peace. We should struggle against the things which put us at enmity with our Lord.

It’s a matter of not assuming we are invincible from falling away from His grace, and manifesting the works of the Spirit Whom justifies us.
 
That’s just it. Justification is not a state of being, it is a Standing, a spiritual position unearned, a gift. We work out what God has worked in us. Sanctification is a state, a condition, a level in God.
 
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