Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

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tgGodsway said:
That’s just it. Justification is not a state of being, it is a Standing, a spiritual position unearned, a gift. We work out what God has worked in us. Sanctification is a state, a condition, a level in God.
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We see justification as a process and the separation of justification and sanctification will always cause us to talk past each other.

I saw this in another thread but it definitely sums up the Catholic position well - from paragraph 1993 of the CCC:

*Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.*
 
tgGodsway said:
That’s just it. Justification is not a state of being, it is a Standing, a spiritual position unearned, a gift. We work out what God has worked in us. Sanctification is a state, a condition, a level in God.
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Ok, I’m not arguing it’s a standing. Sorry if I implied different. Still, the Apostle says “work out your salvation” not “sanctification”.

In any case, justification, salvation, sanctification can be lost to those who do not allow faith to manifest work in their life. Conversion is the first work of the Holy Spirit.
 
Okay RCwitness,

I hear you. Work out your salvation. What is salvation? Deliverance from one thing to another. Salvation is more than deliverance from hell to heaven, and the bible uses this word in more than one way. Work out the very truths that God has worked in you, Why should I do this? Why should I put my hands to work doing the things I learned in my mind? Because your good works becomes a reflection of Christ life. The idea is, don’t let your light be covered up, but put it in the center of the room for everyone to enjoy. Allow your good works to minister to others for Christ glory. Paul was instructing the saved, to do this. He was instructing the Church to go beyond “believing” for eternal life, Get on the narrow and difficult road of discipleship, it leads to LIFE.

Here is a 3-fold theological plan of salvation that might help better my points.
  1. You have been saved in SPIRIT from the PENTALTY of sin = JUSTIFICATION
  2. You are being saved in your SOUL from the POWER of sin = SANCTIFICATION
  3. You will be saved in your BODY from the PRESENCE of sin = GLORIFICATION
Note the past, present, and future tense of this salvation plan. The first stage is your POSTION in Christ. The second is your CONDITION in Christ. and lastly is your AMBITION in Christ.

In a moment of time you heard the gospel and believed it. This resulted in a regeneration of your spirit and deliverance from the penalty of sin, (which is eternal hell) to eternal life. This one time declaration of justice, was fully based on the performance of Christ alone on the cross.

Secondly, You are being saved, (not is spirit) but in your very temporal LIFE. What are you being saved from? Sin’s power that wants to rule in your body. Notice that this salvation is based on your willingness to become more than just a believer. All the faith-alone people may not like this kind of salvation because the saving of the soul, leads to justification by works unto men. James and Hebrews both talk about the saving of the soul.

Finally is the last salvation. We will be saved in BODY. Literally delivered from these death-trap bodies to a glorious new eternal body when Jesus comes again.

This outline is basic Christianity but not excepted in all circles. Each of the three points can easily be approved scripturally, though I did not take the time to do that here.

Blesssings,

tgGodsway
 
tgGodsway said:
Okay RCwitness,

I hear you. Work out your salvation. What is salvation? Deliverance from one thing to another. Salvation is more than deliverance from hell to heaven, and the bible uses this word in more than one way. Work out the very truths that God has worked in you, Why should I do this? Why should I put my hands to work doing the things I learned in my mind? Because your good works becomes a reflection of Christ life. The idea is, don’t let your light be covered up, but put it in the center of the room for everyone to enjoy. Allow your good works to minister to others for Christ glory. Paul was instructing the saved, to do this. He was instructing the Church to go beyond “believing” for eternal life, Get on the narrow and difficult road of discipleship, it leads to LIFE.

Here is a 3-fold theological plan of salvation that might help better my points.
  1. You have been saved in SPIRIT from the PENTALTY of sin = JUSTIFICATION
  2. You are being saved in your SOUL from the POWER of sin = SANCTIFICATION
  3. You will be saved in your BODY from the PRESENCE of sin = GLORIFICATION
Note the past, present, and future tense of this salvation plan. The first stage is your POSTION in Christ. The second is your CONDITION in Christ. and lastly is your AMBITION in Christ.

In a moment of time you heard the gospel and believed it. This resulted in a regeneration of your spirit and deliverance from the penalty of sin, (which is eternal hell) to eternal life. This one time declaration of justice, was fully based on the performance of Christ alone on the cross.

Secondly, You are being saved, (not is spirit) but in your very temporal LIFE. What are you being saved from? Sin’s power that wants to rule in your body. Notice that this salvation is based on your willingness to become more than just a believer. All the faith-alone people may not like this kind of salvation because the saving of the soul, leads to justification by works unto men. James and Hebrews both talk about the saving of the soul.

Finally is the last salvation. We will be saved in BODY. Literally delivered from these death-trap bodies to a glorious new eternal body when Jesus comes again.

This outline is basic Christianity but not excepted in all circles. Each of the three points can easily be approved scripturally, though I did not take the time to do that here.

Blesssings,

tgGodsway
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That’s a bunch of deep stuff you are getting into. And I’m not going to dispute everything. I think justification, salvation, sanctification have elements that are distinct, but also common ground. The Apostle does use salvation in that instance, and I agree, the Philippians he was addressing were already “saved”! I don’t think they had to “earn” their salvation. But I think they were saved into receiving the Holy Spirit. And now that they had access to that Spirit of God, it is necessary to let the Holy Spirit work in them. And that isn’t a burden, but a blessing. Still, that blessing, by nature, calls for a cooperation of mind and body. And even a submission of mind and body. This takes discipline and sacrifice. And though we might fail, at times, turning to our savior for Reconciliation and constant conversion will keep us from being lost to that salvation.

Only God knows these depths completely. But we can know when sins against the faith are evident in brothers. Do we know the depths of their heart? No. But we can know when someone is in grave danger, since we know what sins are gravely wrong!

It becomes compounded when a sin is addressed in a brother, and they continue in it without confessing and making efforts to turn.

So we should admonish the sinner, but not judge. And if the one trespassing refuses even the Church, they are to be judged as an effort to compel them to turn. This for of judgment is called excommunication. And it does not necessarily mean damnation, but a strong warning of the danger of damnation.

We should always hope for Reconciliation for trespassing the laws of Christ. In ourselves and our brothers. But we should never presume forgiveness without repentance.
 
tgGodsway said:
I think what you said, was well said rcwitness.
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Good. I appreciate that. I know these “justification threads” hash out things over and over, because it’s a very important topic.

I don’t ever want to give anyone the impression that, as a Catholic, I believe we can earn Justification. Ajcstr provided a good section of the Catechism concerning Justification! I hope you saw that in post #964.

If our works are from ourselves, and something done out of personal ambition, then I think we may meet the Lord, at judgment, and He say “depart from me, for I do not know you”. But if our works spring from faith, then they justify us before God, since it is not of ourselves but from His own Spirit. And then He will call us His brother, because He knows us, and we shared the same Spirit. The Spirit of the Father’s Son.

Knowing God, through faith is crucial! Evangelicals who ask “Do you know Jesus?” Are asking a very Good question! And many Catholics might assume, since they were Baptized and receive His Eucharist, they know Him. But if they are receiving these without conviction and conversion, then they don’t know Him. I don’t doubt for one minute that it goes on in every place.

I wish that all the separated brothers and sisters were worshipping, serving, and fellowshipping under one Eucharist! And we could focus on our faults, while aiding each other.
 
I am unaware of any separated brothers. There is only one body, one spirit and one savior. And there was only one Judgment over the penalty of sin. That judgement took place over two thousand years ago on a Roman cross.
 
tgGodsway said:
I am unaware of any separated brothers. There is only one body, one spirit and one savior. And there was only one Judgment over the penalty of sin. That judgement took place over two thousand years ago on a Roman cross.
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If we choose leaders (or are born into a community of leaders) who are divided from Apostolic Succession to the point of separation of Communion, then brothers are definitely separated from Jesus, though the degree may vary.
 
rcwitness said:
If we choose leaders (or are born into a community of leaders) who are divided from Apostolic Succession to the point of separation of Communion, then brothers are definitely separated from Jesus, though the degree may vary.
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I don’t understand this statement. Isn’t every non-Catholic separated from the Communion of the CC? How can we be separated from Jesus by degrees? Does separation contain a measurement of distance?
 
Confusion is understandable, Wannano, considering that on here we hear a denial that there are separated brothers, and yet the Vatican says that Protestants are our separated brothers.

Guess I’d rather believe the Vatican. 🙂
 
Peter_J said:
Confusion is understandable, Wannano, considering that on here we hear a denial that there are separated brothers, and yet the Vatican says that Protestants are our separated brothers.

Guess I’d rather believe the Vatican. 🙂
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I hate to be the one to tell you but the Vatican no longer calls us separated brothers but rather brothers and sisters in Christ…am I wrong on that?:confused:
 
Wannano said:
I hate to be the one to tell you but the Vatican no longer calls us separated brothers but rather brothers and sisters in Christ…am I wrong on that?:confused:
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That what “separated brethren” refers to: non-Catholic Christians are our brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
Peter_J said:
Calling you my “separated brother” means that you’re separated from Jesus? (Am I Jesus in this analogy?)
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No, I got that from rc’s post #971. I asked him to clarify but he may not be here tonight.
 
I go away for a few hours and y’all chop me up for dinner. I am in the body of Christ and my circle of believing friends are with me all around the world. There are tens of millions of us. We are Catholic in that sense. You use the word as a label, I use it as a concept. We do not ask Rome for permission to be in Christ nor should we. Christ body is so much bigger than the dictates of Rome.
 
Wannano said:
No, I got that from rc’s post #971. I asked him to clarify but he may not be here tonight.
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Fair enough (I do read (or “follow” as they say in social media :)) rcw’s posts, but haven’t been getting around to that too much lately).

But the way you said it made it sounded like just calling you our separated brethren means that you’re “separated from Jesus”.
 
Peter_J said:
Fair enough (I do read (or “follow” as they say in social media :)) rcw’s posts, but haven’t been getting around to that too much lately). But the way you said it sounded like just calling my our “separated brethren” means that you’re “separated from Jesus”.
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You can’t be separated from the Church and perfectly united to Christ. There are divisions.
 
Rcwitness, I’m not sure who you were addressing in your last statement, but I have no division in my heart toward any Church body. My union with Christ is alive and well. But remember Jesus loved the Pharisees even though they rejected Him and His ministry.
 
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