Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[AugustTherese]

From the Lutheran perspective, the interpretation of James is not a saying that works justify.

Scripture alone: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works…You see that a person is justified by works…And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works” James 2:21,24,25 ESV

“Lutheran perspective: the interpretation of James is not a saying that works justify”

From the Lutheran perspective, the interpretation of James is not a saying that works justify.Therefore, it is not a plain saying that we are justified by Works.

First, this is begging the question (circular reasoning), i.e. the conclusion is included in the premise. Also, you are trying to prove something based from a 16th century perspective to fit a presumption that works do not justify.

We are, instead, justified by grace, not by anything we do, and we access it through faith.

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?” James 2:21

Did not Abraham do something here? You see, when you state, “justified by grace, not by anything we do”, you are separating grace from the works that God does in us, with us, and through us. Grace produces works and we are justified by what God works in us.

And from that gift of grace, we are freed to do the good works He places before us to do.

Amen!

 

[susanlo]

Hi Susanlo,

I agree with much of what you’ve said and I think you’re on the right track in terms of justification. Your words echo what Trent promulgated, “If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.”

However, we have to allow God to work through us, in us, and with us for justification in which I think you beautifully illustrated with your words paraphrasing John 15. Just remember, those works that the Vine produces in Its branches,** those are the works that justify us** as the branches can do nothing without the Vine.

But how many works does it take to become justified? Is it ok to just go to weekly worship and not do the really bad things? Or do we need to say prayers daily - or twice a day - or more often? How often do we have to outwardly demonstrate love to our neighbors? How can we ever know that we have done enough “works” to earn justification?

I don’t think we should be running around trying to do enough good things so God will love us and accept us as His children. I think because He does love us and has accepted us we should consider it a joy to serve Him. The only way our sins can be forgiven is through Jesus’ sacrifice. We as fallen humans can never be good enough to earn salvation - no matter how many “works” we do. Because of Christ’s sacrifice we can have the guilt of sin removed. If you really believe that Jesus did that for you, how could you not spend your life serving Him with a thankful heart.

I am not familiar with all that was written on faith and works at Trent. I have also not read much about what Luther wrote about Sola Fide either. I just know what Scripture as a whole teaches. Put your trust in Jesus (the vine) → be justified and forgiven → bear fruit of the Spirit (works).

 

[James248]

But how many works does it take to become justified? Is it ok to just go to weekly worship and not do the really bad things? Or do we need to say prayers daily - or twice a day - or more often? How often do we have to outwardly demonstrate love to our neighbors? How can we ever know that we have done enough “works” to earn justification?

God doesn’t put a limit on how much fruit you produce. He just wants you to produce fruit.

So don’t play yourself.

Bless up!!!

 

[rcwitness]

But how many works does it take to become justified? Is it ok to just go to weekly worship and not do the really bad things? Or do we need to say prayers daily - or twice a day - or more often? How often do we have to outwardly demonstrate love to our neighbors? How can we ever know that we have done enough “works” to earn justification?

I think those questions would demonste the false understanding of the role works play in a believer. But you know that.

I don’t think we should be running around trying to do enough good things so God will love us and accept us as His children. I think because He does love us and has accepted us we should consider it a joy to serve Him. The only way our sins can be forgiven is through Jesus’ sacrifice. We as fallen humans can never be good enough to earn salvation - no matter how many “works” we do. Because of Christ’s sacrifice we can have the guilt of sin removed. If you really believe that Jesus did that for you, how could you not spend your life serving Him with a thankful heart.

Again, you are correct, but not representing a genuine Catholic faith regarding good works. You must always place faith before works, or else their is no knowledge of Christ’s grace. And you must always place works after faith, or that faith is vain and fruitless.

I am not familiar with all that was written on faith and works at Trent. I have also not read much about what Luther wrote about Sola Fide either. I just know what Scripture as a whole teaches. Put your trust in Jesus (the vine) → be justified and forgiven → bear fruit of the Spirit (works).

This thread seems to be focused on St James’ way of applying justification to the “Works of Faith”. That is to say, that works complete faith, which is obedience to the Word, and not just vain believe which has no root.

That is what Trent, and Catholic doctrine is acknowledging. Being justified Initially doesn’t do much good, unless their is conversion which moves one to repent and follow the guidance of faith. Faith is knowledge that we were justified by the merits of Christ. And that same faith calls us to do what Christ wants us to do. We should always be searching and striving to walk by faith. If we know that we are doing this, we can have confidence and a joyful hope to see Him one day. It doesn’t mean we have to believe we can never fall into grave sin, or we need to earn our salvation. It means we know that we must cling to Him, and His goodness working through and in us, if we are to be saved from the darkness of our old nature and the Devil and the world.

 

[Cathoholic]

JonNC. You mentioned . . . .

From the Lutheran perspective, the interpretation of James is not a saying that works justify.

I realize that from the Lutheran perspective (as you know my Dad was Lutheran who later became Catholic and we discussed a lot of faith items over the years).

And I realize the Presbyterians (from my Gramma) did not assert James in the context of justifying works.

And I know from Baptist Sunday School, youth groups, and Bible camp that I attended that the Baptists also don’t affirm James regarding justifying works.

Yet the passage is explicitly there stated in a way NO Protestant Bible School teacher would phrase our justification.

But I purposefully haven’t appealed to James here in this thread except to ask the question . . . .

Why say something about justification that St. Paul never says (sola fide) . . .
. . . . And ignore other things St. Paul says about the need to work . . .
And say something that EXPLICITLY contradicts James?

I purposefully haven’t appealed to James here. I specifically focused on St. Paul.

And the more I read and re-read St. Paul, the less I can see why anyone would formulate salvation by a phrase of justification by faith ALONE!

 

[Cathoholic]

Susanlo. You asked . . .

But how many works does it take to become justified?

Well how much faith does it take to become justified?

Faith “the size of a mustard seed”? Or more?

In Luke 17:5 when the Apostles asked Jesus to “increase our faith” do you think that supplication was superfluous?

We already saw Judas was implicitly described as having “little” (not “no” and not “none”) faith.

The truth is God doesn’t save us (initially) BECAUSE of our faith (or our works).

He saves us in virtue of His mercy.

But once we are saved, once we are “in the Vine”, once we are gifted with unearned “talents”, once we are IN JESUS, it’s a different story.

Then it is a situation of “to whom much is GIVEN, much will be REQUIRED.”

Once we are in Christ Jesus, we are expected by the graces He continually gives us, to GROW in faith. To grow in hope. To grow in charity.

That’s exactly WHY St. Paul says of faith, hope, and charity, ABIDE these three.

And then St. Paul says something that NONE of my Baptist teachers would ever dream of saying.

St. Paul says the GREATEST virtue of these three is not faith.

But the greatest virtue of these is . . . . charity (love) says St. Paul.

(“If you love me you will keep my commandments”–Jesus)

If we were justified by faith ALONE, St. Paul should never have said “love” or “charity” was the greatest virtue.

St. Paul SHOULD have said, of faith, hope, and charity abide these three but the greatest of these is . . . .FAITH. FAITH because after all, faith and faith ALONE is how we are justified. And what could be more important to us than our justification?

But St. Paul DIDN’T say that.

And the argument that this is a “false faith” in 1st Corinthians 13 doesn’t pursuade either because St. Paul says in that same context to “ABIDE” in it.

He would never tell us to “ABIDE” in a false faith.

Now you COULD say . . .

“OK. After we are IN Christ, how many works does it take to keep being justified?”

But it could be asked the same question about “faith” too.

But those are the wrong questions. We don’t know. That’s part of WHY we undergo judgment. God knows. But we don’t know how “much” faith it takes. We don’t know the extent of hope or charity either.

But those in Christ have a moral assurance of our salvation.

Not an apodictic certitude. Not metaphysical certainty.

St. Paul doesn’t have that himself.

1st CORINTHIANS 4:2-4 2 Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

1st CORINTHIANS 9:26-27 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

“Disqualified” or “adokimos” is a word that means someone who won’t have salvation.

But St. Paul and other Catholic Christians DO have a moral certitude of our salvation.

 

[LatinRight]

I am happy to see you are “in the clear”. I love that!!!

I am a sinner but I’m glad Jesus covers me. I could not do it without Him.

I do not judge those situations, but discern and have GREAT concern for those who do not have an authentic faith. I will give you an example from my own life. I grew up in the church, went every Sunday, honored my parents, was a model child, and knew who Jesus was and what He did. So I thought I was saved until one night when I was 12, the Holy Spirit KNOCKED me to my knees and I collapsed into a heap of crying joy. After 40 solid minutes of this unbelievable joy, I had to be picked up off the alter and helped back into the front seat of the church until it subsided. Until that night, I thought I was saved but was not. Thanks to God, He showed me what it really meant to be saved. Not saying everyone has to have this experience, but prior to my salvation, I thought I was an authentic follower of Christ and was not.

**God bless Drblank and every readers of the CAF.

You said:**
“Not saying everyone has to have this experience, but prior to my salvation, I thought I was an authentic follower of Christ and was not.”

**According to Protestant theology and terminology and the Scripture: **
Your “unbelievable joy” was not your justification (Rom.5:18; Rom.3:24)/born again (John 3:7; 2 Cor.5:17).

Before your experience of “unbelievable joy” you was barn again and you was an authentic follower of Christ and you was saved (John 3:16; John 5:24; Eph.2:8; I John 5:13; etc.). – Of course if you qualified to be saved according to John 3:16; John 5:24; Eph.2:8; I John 5:13.

According to Catholic theology and terminology and the Scripture:
Your “unbelievable joy” was your ‘Personal Encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ.’

You received God’s spiritual gift of the ‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit,’ or with other words; you had a ‘Personal Encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ,’ this encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ changed your life.

This is a spiritual gift of God, not a condition of salvation.

**I can prove it for you Drblank with Catholic teachings and the Scripture.

Benedict XVI:**
As it has been said so often, the New Evangelization is not another program but, at its heart, an ENCOUNTER with a Person, and that Person is Jesus Christ.

The Church must make the “Person of Jesus Christ and a personal encounter with Him central to her thinking, knowing that He will give His Spirit and provide the force to announce and proclaim the Gospel in new ways which can speak to today’s cultures” (Lineamenta, “The New Evangelization,” No. 5).

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

Luke 24:49; … stay in the city of Jerusalem until you have been clothed with power from on high.

Matt.3:11; … He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:8; But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

Acts 2:4; All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:13; But others mocked them and said, “They are drunk on new wine!”

Fortunately to be “dunk on new wine” still continues on today in particularly in the Charismatic Catholic Churches and in the Evangelical Protestant Churches.

Most of their members of the above Churches has the ‘Personal Encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ,’ or with other words received God’s spiritual gift the ‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit’ and they are still “drunk on new wine!”

That incredible experience “unbelievable joy” what you have described in your post (encounter with Christ/baptism of the Holy Spirit) happened with me too.

It was like I burning with fire.
It was unspeakable joy, at the beginning I didn’t know what happening with me, later I know, I didn’t know how I know, but I know it is God’s gift of Baptism of the Holy Spirit/encounter with Christ (Matt.3:11; … He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.).

At that time I realized first time, there is not only natural world but a spiritual world as well, which I never knew before.

This gift of God change my life totally and in every way.

Two weeks I cried from the joy, not exactly all the time.

Just a couple of change in my life among many changes:

I loved the Bible, at that time the Bible came alive, when I read it the tears came from my eyes from the joy. – After many years sometimes still happening.

I have grown-up in Europe, real antisemitism there.

I was so much anti-Semitic, I was sorry I didn’t born Hitler’s time and I wasn’t an SS officer to kill the Jewish people, God instantly changed my heart and put into my heart ten times more love then hatred was.

God instantly gave me incredibly faith and love, also gave me His spiritual gift to speak and pry in tongues (1 Cor.12:9-10).

God has given me incredibly love and zeal to tell the message of the Bible to everyone (Acts 1:8). – Still have the same zeal.

Pope Benedict XVI
There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ.
There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him.

**Pope Benedict XVI **
The evangelization of the person and of human communities depends TOTALLY on this encounter with Jesus Christ.

God bless Drblank and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[MichaelP3]

If you are talking about Calvin’s perseverance of the saints, not all Protestants hold to it.

Didn’t mean anything specifically. Was just a tongue in cheek comment. I tend to think CAF is the wrong place if outright agreement is expected.

 

[MichaelP3]

Why do you call them, “[Y]our good works”, as if they are solely mine through my merit alone? You are referring to a heresy knows as Pelagianism that was anathematized in the sixth century.

God produces good works in us, through us, and with us. They are his merits, not ours. We simply allow Him, through our freedom of will, to produce works in us:

“Lord, You will establish peace for us, For You have also done all our works in us.” (Isaiah 26:12 NKJV)

“make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ.” (Hebrews 13:21 NKJV)

“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6 NKJV)

“it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20 NKJV)

“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” (Philippians 4:13 NKJV)

Yea I am aware of the Council of Carthage that condemned this. I always thought the canons from that Council is pretty much the essence of the reformation. Here they are.

1.Death did not come to Adam from a physical necessity, but through sin.
2.New-born children must be baptized on account of original sin.
3.Justifying grace not only avails for the forgiveness of past sins, but also gives assistance for the avoidance of future sins.
4.The grace of Christ not only discloses the knowledge of God’s commandments, but also imparts strength to will and execute them.
5.Without God’s grace it is not merely more difficult, but absolutely impossible to perform good works.
6.Not out of humility, but in truth must we confess ourselves to be sinners.
7.The saints refer the petition of the Our Father, “Forgive us our trespasses”, not only to others, but also to themselves.
8.The saints pronounce the same supplication not from mere humility, but from truthfulness.

Anyway, you answered my question as I expected. Which is why I added a bit to it which you seem to have missed. There is this big chicken and egg discussion here but my question is rather, what are those good works. What kind of guy will make you look at him thinking “YUP, that person is doing good works”? All I see here is that we need to do good works? I would like to know what that is? What would constitute a good work compared to what is expected? Like I asked at a company. What would give you a normal rating or what would give you an exceptional rating?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC. You mentioned . . . .

I realize that from the Lutheran perspective (as you know my Dad was Lutheran who later became Catholic and we discussed a lot of faith items over the years).

And I realize the Presbyterians (from my Gramma) did not assert James in the context of justifying works.

And I know from Baptist Sunday School, youth groups, and Bible camp that I attended that the Baptists also don’t affirm James regarding justifying works.

Yet the passage is explicitly there stated in a way NO Protestant Bible School teacher would phrase our justification.

But I purposefully haven’t appealed to James here in this thread except to ask the question . . . .

Why say something about justification that St. Paul never says (sola fide) . . .
. . . . And ignore other things St. Paul says about the need to work . . .
And say something that EXPLICITLY contradicts James?

I purposefully haven’t appealed to James here. I specifically focused on St. Paul.

And the more I read and re-read St. Paul, the less I can see why anyone would formulate salvation by a phrase of justification by faith ALONE!

I don’t think James contradicts Paul at all. Paul says we are justified by grace through faith, and not of ourselves. He also says that what avails before God is a faith that works through love. James re-iterates that by confirming that faith without Works is dead. He is making clear to those he is speaking to that the justified must do good works.

But I want to get back to a statement I’ve made more than once in different ways, and I don’t think a Catholic has responded to. I’ve said that I reject the Catholic phrase “faith and works”, unless they clearly state that good works are as much a gift of grace as faith itself.
If justification is a work of the living God in us, as the JDDJ states, and if works justify in the way Catholics believe, then either works like faith are a gift of grace, or justification is not a gift, but instead something we can earn. And if they are a gift of grace ( meaning we are capable of performing good works - good in God’s sight -only because of the Spirit’s work in us), then the merit still belongs to Christ, and our reward in Heaven for our good works is for His sake.

 

[rcwitness]

But I want to get back to a statement I’ve made more than once in different ways, and I don’t think a Catholic has responded to. I’ve said that I reject the Catholic phrase “faith and works”, unless they clearly state that good works are as much a gift of grace as faith itself.

Faith and it’s works are a gift of grace.

If justification is a work of the living God in us, as the JDDJ states, and if works justify in the way Catholics believe, then either works like faith are a gift of grace, or justification is not a gift, but instead something we can earn. And if they are a gift of grace ( meaning we are capable of performing good works - good in God’s sight -only because of the Spirit’s work in us), then the merit still belongs to Christ, and our reward in Heaven for our good works is for His sake.

I agree

 

[AugustTherese]

https://outlook.office.com/owa/?realm=campus.mnsu.edu&path=/attachmentlightbox

 

[AugustTherese]

I don’t think James contradicts Paul at all. Paul says we are justified by grace through faith, and not of ourselves. He also says that what avails before God is a faith that works through love. James re-iterates that by confirming that faith without Works is dead. He is making clear to those he is speaking to that the justified must do good works.

That is Catholic theology. Protestant theology would have stated, “Paul says we are justified by grace through faith [alone]…”

 

[AugustTherese]

But how many works does it take to become justified? Is it ok to just go to weekly worship and not do the really bad things? Or do we need to say prayers daily - or twice a day - or more often? How often do we have to outwardly demonstrate love to our neighbors? How can we ever know that we have done enough “works” to earn justification?

I don’t think we should be running around trying to do enough good things so God will love us and accept us as His children. I think because He does love us and has accepted us we should consider it a joy to serve Him. The only way our sins can be forgiven is through Jesus’ sacrifice. We as fallen humans can never be good enough to earn salvation - no matter how many “works” we do. Because of Christ’s sacrifice we can have the guilt of sin removed. If you really believe that Jesus did that for you, how could you not spend your life serving Him with a thankful heart.

I am not familiar with all that was written on faith and works at Trent. I have also not read much about what Luther wrote about Sola Fide either. I just know what Scripture as a whole teaches. Put your trust in Jesus (the vine) → be justified and forgiven → bear fruit of the Spirit (works).

Please refer to post #336 in above. I could not have replied better!

 

[ajcstr]

OK

Lets jump off the theology for a minute and look at a practical example…

I write a check for $200 and send it to XYZ charities.

Now, if done properly (I’m not doing it for a tax deduction or anything like that), am I not responding to grace? I can think about writing the check for two weeks and never do it, but today I thought about it and today I am doing it. I can’t boast about what a wonderful person I am because I realize its the grace that’s moving me. I am not watching my hand write the check and saying “What’s happening, why am I doing this??? OH its that grace again, I hope it checked my account balance before doing this” No, I am fully cooperating with the grace and producing a fruit.

Does this make sense or am I just rambling?

 

[pablope]

But how many works does it take to become justified? Is it ok to just go to weekly worship and not do the really bad things? Or do we need to say prayers daily - or twice a day - or more often? How often do we have to outwardly demonstrate love to our neighbors? How can we ever know that we have done enough “works” to earn justification?

This is the wrong notion of works and the word “merit” as used in catholic teaching.

I am not familiar with all that was written on faith and works at Trent. I have also not read much about what Luther wrote about Sola Fide either. I just know what Scripture as a whole teaches. Put your trust in Jesus (the vine) → be justified and forgiven → bear fruit of the Spirit (works).

 

[JonNC]

Faith and it’s works are a gift of grace.
I agree

Amen, and I like the way you said it: “faith and its works”.

 

[ajcstr]

From section 2010 of the CCC:

Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

 

[ajcstr]

How can we ever know that we have done enough “works” to earn justification?

See this is getting into Palagianism. Nothing is earned.

See my posts 345 and 348