Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[spina1953]

I agree with rcwitness that faith and works are a grace. Did not Jesus say that we are to be a light that shines so that others who see our good deeds give praise to God the Father? We are instruments of God in other words partners in that we allow God to do His works through us. Good works originates from God first I think then whatever good work or deed that God wills to do through us is done.

Did not Jesus also say that the servant does  not get credit for doing what the master desires? So doing good works in and of itself with the thought that it is us, that is originates with us seems to be a false pride when in fact one can't do any good work or deed unless God wills it and the person allows God to do that work or deed though that person.

It seems to me that to be justified is an act of God whereby humankind is absolved of guilt or sin. That is to declare one innocent. So then its not faith or good works or deeds that justify but God who justifies a person according to His will. God justifies because on is doing God's will without looking for merit, praise, recognition, but does the will of God out of love.

Faith is believing and act. believing in something that can’t be proved as in one can’t prove God exists or not exist; one either believes or one does not. Good works can be done by one who does not believe since God can do any good work or deed through a person if that person is open to to it.Faith is not required. That being said, when one has faith one naturally will do good works or deeds receiving grace which is freely given by God, grace is love that God offers to all. In that way we becomes justified because one is doing Gods will out of love and accepts God’s will and enters into partnership with God. Does that make any sense? or not?

 

[ajcstr]

But how many works does it take to become justified?

A man died and was standing before Peter at the gates of Heaven. Peter pulled out a book and told the man that there was a point value for each good work and the man needed 100 points to get into Heaven. He then asked the man “what were your works?”

The man responded, Well, I never missed Mass and I read scripture and prayed daily. Peter thumbed through the book and said “1 point”

The man said Well, I was married to the same woman for 45 years and I never cheated or even looked at another woman. Peter responded “1 point”

The man, starting to get a little nervous said … I ran a soup kitchen for the homeless for 20 years, all from my own funds. Peter responded “2 points”

The man threw his hands up and said… At this rate, I will only get into Heaven by the grace of God. Peter smiled and said “100 points, come on in!”

 

[lanman87]

They all therefore were glorified and magnified, not through themselves or their own works or the righteous doing which they wrought, but through His will. And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the Almighty God justified all men that have been from the beginning; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.What then must we do, brethren? Must we idly abstain from doing good, and forsake love? May the Master never allow this to befall us at least; but let us hasten with instancy and zeal to accomplish every good work.

Just something to think about

 

[ajcstr]

Today’s Gospel reading:

Jesus said to his disciples:
“This is my commandment: love one another as I love you.
No one has greater love than this,
to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
You are my friends if you do what I command you.
I no longer call you slaves,
because a slave does not know what his master is doing.
I have called you friends,
because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father.
It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you
and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain,
so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you.
This I command you: love one another.”

 

[JonNC]

OK

Lets jump off the theology for a minute and look at a practical example…

I write a check for $200 and send it to XYZ charities.

Now, if done properly (I’m not doing it for a tax deduction or anything like that), am I not responding to grace? I can think about writing the check for two weeks and never do it, but today I thought about it and today I am doing it. I can’t boast about what a wonderful person I am because I realize its the grace that’s moving me. I am not watching my hand write the check and saying “What’s happening, why am I doing this??? OH its that grace again, I hope it checked my account balance before doing this” No, I am fully cooperating with the grace and producing a fruit.

Does this make sense or am I just rambling?

Certainly we have the free will to reject grace, so it isn’t like we are puppets. Yes, we interact with grace .

 

[AugustTherese]

What kind of guy will make you look at him thinking “YUP, that person is doing good works”? All I see here is that we need to do good works? I would like to know what that is?

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” - Matthew 6:1-4 ESV

What would constitute a good work compared to what is expected? Like I asked at a company. What would give you a normal rating or what would give you an exceptional rating?

“For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me’.” - Matthew 25: 35-40 ESV

Anything done out of genuine love for God and for neighbor is a good work.

 

[ajcstr]

Certainly we have the free will to reject grace, so it isn’t like we are puppets. Yes, we interact with grace .

I believe Luther would disagree with your second statement and Calvin would disagree with both.

 

[drblank1]

Faith needs to be supplemented with virtue. Jesus is talking about those who didn’t supplement their faith with virtue.

This is not the moral at all. It’s all about genuine faith in the Gospel.

Mark 4:15 - Hearing the Gospel but not accepting
v16. hears with Joy but no root
v18 - hears but cares of this world are more important

"Others, like seed sown on good soil,** hear the word, accept it**, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.” (Mark 4:20)

I’ve asked this question before and don’t remember seeing it answered: can anyone give me an example where Jesus said a work saved or healed them?

 

[ajcstr]

I’ve asked this question before and don’t remember seeing it answered: can anyone give me an example where Jesus said a work saved or healed them?

Luke 18:18-22

When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

 

[James248]

This is not the moral at all. It’s all about genuine faith in the Gospel.

Mark 4:15 - Hearing the Gospel but not accepting
v16. hears with Joy but no root
v18 - hears but cares of this world are more important

"Others, like seed sown on good soil,** hear the word, accept it**, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.” (Mark 4:20)

I’ve asked this question before and don’t remember seeing it answered: can anyone give me an example where Jesus said a work saved or healed them?

Response. The word grew in all of those soils. In this scenario, three souls didn’t produce fruit.

Your question is irrelevant. All the people who Jesus said their faith had saved them performed acts of faith. In Zacchaeus’s situation, his repentance, (A WORK), prompted Jesus to say, “Salvation has come to this house.” Faith made him come up the tree. His repentance gained him salvation.

 

[JonNC]

I believe Luther would disagree with your second statement and Calvin would disagree with both.

Maybe, but here is what he says of the Doctrine of Works in his Commentary on Galatians, 5:14

The Apostle exhorts all Christians to practice good works after they have embraced the pure doctrine of faith, because even though they have been justified they still have the old flesh to refrain them from doing good. Therefore it becomes necessary that sincere preachers cultivate the doctrine of good works as diligently as the doctrine of faith, for Satan is a deadly enemy of both. Nevertheless faith must come first because without faith it is impossible to know what a God-pleasing deed is.

Let nobody think that he knows all about this commandment, “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” It sounds short and easy, but show me the man who can teach, learn, and do this commandment perfectly. None of us heed, or urge, or practice this commandment properly. Though the conscience hurts when we fail to fulfill this commandment in every respect we are not overwhelmed by our failure to bear our neighbor sincere and brotherly love.

---

For all the Law is fulfilled in one word.
We can imagine the Apostle saying to the Galatians: "Why do you get so worked up over ceremonies, meats, days, places, and such things? Leave off this foolishness and listen to me. The whole Law is comprehended in this one sentence, ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.’ God is not particularly interested in ceremonies, nor has He any use for them. The one thing He requires of you is that you believe in Christ whom He hath sent. If in addition to faith, which comes first as the most acceptable service unto God, you want to add laws, then you want to know that all laws are comprehended in this short commandment, ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.’ "

Paul knows how to explain the law of God. He condenses all the laws of Moses into one brief sentence. Reason takes offense at the brevity with which Paul treats the Law. Therefore reason looks down upon the doctrine of faith and its truly good works. To serve one another in love, i.e., to instruct the erring, to comfort the afflicted, to raise the fallen, to help one’s neighbor in every possible way, to bear with his infirmities, to endure hardships, toil, ingratitude in the Church and in the world, and on the other hand to obey government, to honor one’s parents, to be patient at home with a nagging wife and an unruly family, these things are not at all regarded as good works. The fact is, they are such excellent works that the world cannot possibly estimate them at their true value.

It is tersely spoken: “Love thy neighbour as thyself.” But what more needs to be said? You cannot find a better or nearer example than your own. If you want to know how you ought to love your neighbor, ask yourself how much you love yourself. If you were to get into trouble or danger, you would be glad to have the love and help of all men. You do not need any book of instructions to teach you how to love your neighbor. All you have to do is to look into your own heart, and it will tell you how you ought to love your neighbor as yourself.

My neighbor is every person, especially those who need my help, as Christ explained in the tenth chapter of Luke. Even if a person has done me some wrong, or has hurt me in any way, he is still a human being with flesh and blood. As long as a person remains a human being, so long is he to be an object of our love.

Paul therefore urges his Galatians and, incidentally, all believers to serve each other in love. “You Galatians do not have to accept circumcision. If you are so anxious to do good works, I will tell you in one word how you can fulfill all laws. ‘By love serve one another.’ You will never lack people to whom you may do good. The world is full of people who need your help.”

I don’t know if Luther would agree that the regenerate interact with grace to do good works, but this sounds something like it to me.

 

[ajcstr]

I don’t know if Luther would agree that the regenerate interact with grace to do good works, but this sounds something like it to me.

Maybe AugustTherese can help me here but I’m under the impression that Luther believed that we are totally depraved and though we can reject grace there is no synergism involved once we accept grace.

IMHO, we Catholics and Protestants are closer than we think but we often talk past each other because we misunderstand each other. My frustration is hearing that one must have works to demonstrate their faith, but at the same time works are not necessary for justification.

 

[spina1953]

Maybe AugustTherese can help me here but I’m under the impression that Luther believed that we are totally depraved and though we can reject grace there is no synergism involved once we accept grace.

IMHO, we Catholics and Protestants are closer than we think but we often talk past each other because we misunderstand each other. My frustration is hearing that one must have works to demonstrate their faith, but at the same time works are not necessary for justification.

Hi ajcstr, I agree in that I do think we Catholic’s and Protestants speak past each other. I also think in many ways we say the same thing in different ways which may cause misunderstandings due to wanting to voice what we think is correct in the way of thinking and understanding. I sometimes also think we are not always listening to each other.

 

[JonNC]

Maybe AugustTherese can help me here but I’m under the impression that Luther believed that we are totally depraved and though we can reject grace there is no synergism involved once we accept grace.

IMHO, we Catholics and Protestants are closer than we think but we often talk past each other because we misunderstand each other. My frustration is hearing that one must have works to demonstrate their faith, but at the same time works are not necessary for justification.

Of course, it depends on the protestant. But yes, I agree that we often talk past each other, which is why I often post Akin’s article .

It isn’t so much that works are not necessary for justification, but that works do not add to justification because justification is a gift of grace works are the necessary result of regeneration, of justification.

 

[AugustTherese]

It isn’t so much that works are not necessary for justification, but that works do not add to justification because justification is a gift of grace works are the necessary result of regeneration, of justification.

Jon, intended or not, it still seems that you are attempting to separate works and grace (faith) by categorizing faith and grace as the only elements for justification, while works are merely a byproduct or result of that faith for our sanctification (regeneration).

There is no need ever to separate works from faith in dealing with justification:

“You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works.” James 2:22

His faith, “was completed by his works”, yet you say, “works do not add to justification”.

Care to explain?

 

[MichaelP3]

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” - Matthew 6:1-4 ESV

This is exactly what I meant by my question. See below.

“For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me’.” - Matthew 25: 35-40 ESV

Anything done out of genuine love for God and for neighbor is a good work.

Taking all of this into account. I really fail to see the purpose of this Chicken and egg discussion. Why would any Christian not do this as you put it “Anything done out of genuine love for God and for neighbor is a good work”" kinda thing? Seriously why not?

Regards

 

[spina1953]

This is exactly what I meant by my question. See below.

Taking all of this into account. I really fail to see the purpose of this Chicken and egg discussion. Why would any Christian not do this as you put it “Anything done out of genuine love for God and for neighbor is a good work”" kinda thing? Seriously why not?

Regards

One thing to remember jesus said to be a light that shines so that others may see your good works and give praise to God the Father. I think there is a big difference between one who looks for recognition and praise for doing what they should and those who do good works without looking for anything in return.

 

[ajcstr]

I was in a bible study once and the instructor said something like our works don’t get us to heaven but they determine what our reward in heaven will be.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

But how many works does it take to become justified? Is it ok to just go to weekly worship and not do the really bad things? Or do we need to say prayers daily - or twice a day - or more often? How often do we have to outwardly demonstrate love to our neighbors? How can we ever know that we have done enough “works” to earn justification?

I don’t think we should be running around trying to do enough good things so God will love us and accept us as His children. I think because He does love us and has accepted us we should consider it a joy to serve Him. The only way our sins can be forgiven is through Jesus’ sacrifice. We as fallen humans can never be good enough to earn salvation - no matter how many “works” we do. Because of Christ’s sacrifice we can have the guilt of sin removed. If you really believe that Jesus did that for you, how could you not spend your life serving Him with a thankful heart.

I am not familiar with all that was written on faith and works at Trent. I have also not read much about what Luther wrote about Sola Fide either. I just know what Scripture as a whole teaches. Put your trust in Jesus (the vine) → be justified and forgiven → bear fruit of the Spirit (works).

Hi susan.

If this parable is any indication, I’d say very little:

Parable of the talents
Matthew 25:14-27New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Bags of Gold
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’

21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’

23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

Seems like if the servant just deposited this in the bank then he is ok. How much effort does that take?

 

[lanman87]

I was in a bible study once and the instructor said something like our works don’t get us to heaven but they determine what our reward in heaven will be.

That is very much a Protestant Belief.