Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[pablope]

Hi Pablope

You are either asking me if I am a Calvinist or like any other Protestant would believe.

 

[JonNC]

Hi Pablope

You are either asking me if I am a Calvinist or like any other Protestant would believe. Actually your last sentience is very Protestant. So my question still stands. Why would any Christian not do good works? Whether he thinks it matters for Salvation, to be combined with faith or to just respect God. WE SHOULD DO GOOD WORKS. That is obvious, so let us do it!

The very fact that confession and Holy Absolution is available should be an indication that even good Christians fail at times to keep His commands. We should do good works doesn’t mean we are always successful. And sometimes,a Christian will find it “inconvenient” in their life to continue to follow His commands.

 

[MichaelP3]

The very fact that confession and Holy Absolution is available should be an indication that even good Christians fail at times to keep His commands. We should do good works doesn’t mean we are always successful. And sometimes,a Christian will find it “inconvenient” in their life to continue to follow His commands.

Your statement is true and I think it should make all of us stop and think for a moment. But the discussions here has not been whether we are successful.

 

[MichaelP3]

Really? I neither asked if you are a calvnist or not, and neither do I care.

Well this is very good to hear. :extrahappy:

Why not answer as you put it (And also has been the answer for 2000 years) “(Do you believe) good works are a result of an internal change in man, and the result is to do good works” to all the Catholics on here and then the matter is settled . Just a thought…

 

[LatinRight]

God bless every readers of the CAF.

The way I see the posts, both Catholics and Protestants agree; after our baptism we all should do good works. – No arguments.

The arguments is THE REASON we should do good works.

So, What is THE REASON we should do good works?

THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FORMED FAITH:

a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)

b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)

c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)

Every genuine Christian has the above God’s gift of formed faith.

We all know, genuine Christians can be deceived. – Matt. 24:4, 11, 24; etc.

For example:
A genuine Christian has the above God’s gift of formed faith.

He worked hard in all his life, but he was deceived and he worked in all his life for the wrong reason.

After he died, at the judgment of his works God rejected all his 100 % works because all his hard works done for the wrong reason.

Question:
He ended up in heaven or in hell?

**The answer **of the above question might help the reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants view on to understand the reason we should work.

Please don’t focus on he died in the state of grace or in the state of mortal sin because that would destroys the spirit of the question.

**Or, I could ask the question as follows **(no loophole and please don’t try to find one, just please focus on the spirit of the question):

If a Christian has a genuine God’s given formed faith, and he is deceived, and all his hard works done for the wrong reason and all his 100 % hard works useless works, at the judgment will be rejected by God:

Can he still die in the state of grace and end up in heaven without an iota work which is count for anything?

The answer of the above question might help the reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants view on to understand THE REASON we should work.

Thanks in advance.

God bless every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[ajcstr]

No, that faith can’t save him, because it isn’t real faith. Real faith causes a change in a person that produces works. We are back to the chicken and the egg

So there are different types of faith then?

I included the KJV because it asks “can faith save him”

 

[lanman87]

So there are different types of faith then?

I included the KJV because it asks “can faith save him”

There is genuine faith and dead faith? Genuine faith is a huge concept with all kinds of implications. The simplest way of putting it is Genuine faith is a God Given change of heart. Dead faith is faith in words only. It is saying you have faith but there has not been a change in your heart, or attitudes, or actions.

It is possible for a person to proclaim, I have faith, and not mean it at all. Genuine faith results in a change. Just proclaiming “I have faith” does not save you. I think that is the point James is getting at in the James 2 passage.

 

[James248]

No, that faith can’t save him, because it isn’t real faith. Real faith causes a change in a person that produces works. We are back to the chicken and the egg

Not all chickens produce eggs.

 

[pablope]

I did not ask for Calvinism…

Well this is very good to hear. :extrahappy:

Just a thought…

Why are you evading? The question is asked of you…not catholics…we know what the church has taught…so no need to ask us.

Maybe you cannot accept that Protestants are teaching something that only came along 500 yrs ago and it is vastly different from what the CC position is?

Maybe you cannot accept what the Catholic Church has been teaching and saying all along, can you?

 

[ajcstr]

There is genuine faith and dead faith? Genuine faith is a huge concept with all kinds of implications. The simplest way of putting it is Genuine faith is a God Given change of heart. Dead faith is faith in words only. It is saying you have faith but there has not been a change in your heart, or attitudes, or actions.

It is possible for a person to proclaim, I have faith, and not mean it at all. Genuine faith results in a change. Just proclaiming “I have faith” does not save you. I think that is the point James is getting at in the James 2 passage.

So following this reasoning, genuine faith must include works?

 

[lanman87]

So following this reasoning, genuine faith must include works?

A genuine change of heart (for lack of a better word) brought on by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the life of believer produces works. If a person doesn’t have works, at least to some degree, then he probably hasn’t been indwelled by the Holy Spirit. If he hasn’t been indwelled by the Spirit then he doesn’t have genuine faith.

 

[pablope]

A genuine change of heart (for lack of a better word) brought on by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the life of believer produces works. If a person doesn’t have works, at least to some degree, then he probably hasn’t been indwelled by the Holy Spirit. If he hasn’t been indwelled by the Spirit then he doesn’t have genuine faith.

But if this person was baptized…wasn’t he already indwelled by the HS at that point?

And if he did not produce good works…what happens to the indwelling of the HS?

It somehow disappeared or the HS abandoned the person?

 

[SyCarl]

I believe much of the difference between Catholics and most Protestants is one of semantics.

My understanding is that Catholics view justification, sanctification and salvation as basically the same thing. In Reformed churches, at least, this is not the case.

Salvation consists of four parts, regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification.

Regeneration is where we are changed. Our sins are forgiven, we are given a heart of flesh instead of our heart of stone, and we are given a new spirit. We become able of wanting to please God and of trying to please Him. As the Westminster Confession of Faith states:

All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html

Justification is when we are declared righteous. We are not made righteous as righteousness in God’s eyes requires perfection while we still have part of our old nature that wars with us.

Sanctification is where we work out our salvation. We strive to become holy and this is where works come in. This process is not completed in this life. Again from the Westminster Confession:

They who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened, in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Glorification is after death when we are with Christ and are truly righteous.

With respect to James 2:24, this has to be viewed in conjunction with what Paul says in Romans 4:1-2 since Scripture cannot contradict Scripture…

What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified ]by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

So Abraham was not justified by works before God. When James says that Abraham was justified by works, he must mean before men and not God. In other words we show ourselves to be justified by the works we do. This fits with the context of the rest of what James says. He asks of a person who says he has faith but no works. Can that faith save him? This is one place the distinction between justification and sanctification comes in. A person can be justified by faith but being saved also involves the works of sanctification. Again James contrasts one trying to prove he has faith without works while he shows his faith by his works.

This showing our faith by our works has support in the early church.

Bede says:

Abraham had such a vibrant faith in God that he was ready to do whatever God wanted him to. This is why his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness, and it was in order that we might know the full meaning of this that God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son. It was by his perfect accomplishment of God’s command that the faith which he had in his heart was shown to be perfect.

(Concerning the Epistle of James) (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 32.)

Salvian the Presbyter

Good works are witnesses to the Christian faith, otherwise a Christian cannot prove that he has that faith. If he cannot prove it, it must be considered completely nonexistent.

(On the Goverance of God 4.2 Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 30.)

Symeon the New Theologian

Faith is shown by deeds like the features of the face in a mirror.

(Discourses 29.4, Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 30.)

 

[lanman87]

But if this person was baptized…wasn’t he already indwelled by the HS at that point?

And if he did not produce good works…what happens to the indwelling of the HS?

It somehow disappeared or the HS abandoned the person?

Well, at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Because I don’t believe that being baptized and being indwelled with the Holy Spirit are the same thing. I think that baptism is a symbol or picture of being indwelled with the Holy Spirit but does not cause the actual indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only responding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit in faith causes a person to be filled with the Holy Spirit. That is why we Baptist teach believers baptism.

Calvinist believe that when someone places genuine faith in Christ they are indwelled with the spirit and that seal is irrevocable. Armenians belief that if a person falls into a sinful lifestyle and loses his faith then God will take the Holy Spirit from that person. I tell folks that if you Love Jesus and live for Him then don’t worry about it.

 

[ajcstr]

I believe much of the difference between Catholics and most Protestants is one of semantics.

Agreed - but I think the biggest difference is the Catholic notion of synergism where we participate in our salvation through our works. We never earn our salvation but we must cooperate with the grace we receive.

My understanding is that Catholics view justification, sanctification and salvation as basically the same thing. In Reformed churches, at least, this is not the case.

Close but Catholics consider sanctification as part of justification but not interchangeable.

Salvation consists of four parts, regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification.

The Catholic model (my understanding at least) would be salvation consists of initial justification (free gift), then sanctification/progressive justification (through works) and final justification (at death).

So Abraham was not justified by works before God. When James says that Abraham was justified by works, he must mean before men and not God. In other words we show ourselves to be justified by the works we do.

This is an area of disagreement also. In James, Abraham is being justified before God by his works. Don’t see how you can argue otherwise. Also this fits into the Catholic model that justification is a process rather than a point in time because both Paul and James use Abraham as an example but point to two different points in Genesis where Abraham was justified.

 

[MichaelP3]

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Well, at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Because I don’t believe that being baptized and being indwelled with the Holy Spirit are the same thing. I think that baptism is a symbol or picture of being indwelled with the Holy Spirit but does not cause the actual indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only responding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit in faith causes a person to be filled with the Holy Spirit. That is why we Baptist teach believers baptism.

Calvinist believe that when someone places genuine faith in Christ they are indwelled with the spirit and that seal is irrevocable. Armenians belief that if a person falls into a sinful lifestyle and loses his faith then God will take the Holy Spirit from that person. I tell folks that if you Love Jesus and live for Him then don’t worry about it.

Hi Ian.

I know you are not looking for debates and I respect that, but just wondering what your thoughts are on Jesus’ baptism? And the Holy Spirit coming upon him that very moment?

Seems that biblically, the Catholic Church is on point that the Spirit comes upon us at Baptism, but it also can occur through desire, w/o water such as the thief on the cross.

Can it occur, in your opinion, in both cases as the CC teaches??

 

[MichaelP3]

Hi Ian.

I know you are not looking for debates and I respect that, but just wondering what your thoughts are on Jesus’ baptism? And the Holy Spirit coming upon him that very moment?

Seems that biblically, the Catholic Church is on point that the Spirit comes upon us at Baptism, but it also can occur through desire, w/o water such as the thief on the cross.

Can it occur, in your opinion, in both cases as the CC teaches??

Hi LA

You didn’t ask me but I would like to add. I commend some posters on CAF that made me look into this a bit more. I will admit I never really understood baptism before. I can blame my “Sunday school” but thinking back, they actually tried. I was just one of those kids who would like to go home and play before school next day. But after going into this I understood I am basically the same with Catholics on this one. And that is also the teaching of my “Sunday School” days.

Point is, that is one of the times CAF actually helped me.

 

[Techno2000]

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

“At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

“Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

“‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

“But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

“Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

“But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Could faith alone get the lamp oil for the Virgins ?

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87. In post 381 you mentioned . . .

Real faith causes a change in a person that produces works.

“Real faith” may do that.

But “real faith” may NOT do that too.

I’ve already shown you an example from St. Paul where a guy had “real faith”.

Real faith that “moves mountains”.

Real faith that a guy would be willing to give his body up to be “burned” with.

Real faith that St. Paul tells us we must “abide in”.

Yet if it is not accompanied by charity this “real faith” that he has, gains him “nothing” much less Heaven.

You’ve gotta have faith working through love or charity.

That’s WHY St. Paul tells us . . . .

GALATIANS 5:6 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Charity not faith is the principal source of merit in us before God.

That is WHY St. Paul says of faith, hope, charity, the greatest of these is charity in 1st Corinthians 13.

The Catholic Church puts that same concept this way (emphasis mine) . . . .

CCC 2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God’s gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.

Yes faith has a role too. But you need charity as well. That’s one reason why faith ALONE cannot justify.

When we are Baptized, we have supernatural faith, hope, and charity infused into us.

We are Baptized into Christ’s life, death, and Resurrection as St. Paul suggests in Romans 6:3-5.

THEN when we are in Christ, we are EXPECTED to GROW IN Christ as we have been given so great a gift. And to whom much is GIVEN, much is REQUIRED (Luke 12:48).

If the person doesn’t have charity but has faith, his faith cannot save him and thus this is a “dead faith” but it is authentic.

And if this person gets their charity back through proper repentance, then their faith will come alive again too.

COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XXVIII If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin, faith also is always lost with it; or, that the faith which remains, though it be not a lively faith, is not a true faith; or, that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Christian; let him be anathema.

**COUNCIL OF TRENT (Decree on Justification Session VI) **
**CHAPTER XV. **

That, by every mortal sin, grace is lost, but not faith.

In opposition also to the subtle wits of certain men, who, by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent, it is to be maintained, that the received grace of Justification is lost, not only by infidelity whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost; thus defending the doctrine of the divine law, which excludes from the kingdom of God not only the unbelieving, but the faithful also (who are) fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, liers with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, railers, extortioners, and all others who commit deadly sins; from which, with the help of divine grace, they can refrain, and on account of which they are separated from the grace of Christ.