Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[Cathoholic]

Sy Carl. In post 402 you said . . .

My understanding is that Catholics view justification, sanctification and salvation as basically the same thing. In Reformed churches, at least, this is not the case.

Unfortunately. This is not entirely correct what you’ve said about the Catholic Faith.

CCC 2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

The Council of Trent taught the same basic thing . . . .

**COUNCIL OF TRENT SESSION VI (Decree on Justification) CHAPTER VII. **

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

You also said:

Justification is when we are declared righteous. We are not made righteous . . . .

Do you affirm God ACCOMPLISHES what He declares?

ISAIAH 55:11 11 so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

I have no problem with God “declaring” us as “righteous”. But if you are positing that it is a declaration “ALONE” I am going to take issue with that.

You went on with . . . .

Justification is when we are declared righteous. We are not made righteous as righteousness in God’s eyes requires perfection while we still have part of our old nature that wars with us.

But that’s part of WHY justification is a process SyCarl.

Justification is a lifelong process.

Being “born again” or “Born of water and the Spirit” is just the beginning of that process.

 

[Cathoholic]

MichaelP3. You asked in post 388 . . . .

So my question still stands. Why would any Christian not do good works? Whether he thinks it matters for Salvation, to be combined with faith or to just respect God. WE SHOULD DO GOOD WORKS. That is obvious, so let us do it!

Let’s focus on the first part.

So my question still stands. Why would any Christian not do good works?

Before I answer that, remember, people CANNOT do “good works” apart from the grace of God at work in us and through us in charity. (That would be Pelagianism)

So the outward appearance of “works” may LOOK identical.

If I hold the door for a little old lady IN THE SPIRIT, and this is initiated by God and moved by God and cooperated with by me this is good and meritorious.

But if I am no longer in a state of grace, if I have lost friendship with God, if I have chosen to be removed from the Vine and not “REMAIN” . . . “IN Jesus” . . . through serious sin . . . . . then my holding the door for the little old lady is nothing but mere “natural virtue”.

Natural virtue is good, but natural virtue is not “good enough” to merit me anything.

In order for me to have supernatural charity, I must have REMAIN in the Vine.

JOHN 15:4-5 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

So let’s look at the question again . . . .

Why would any Christian not do good works?

Because if a Christian “falls from grace” **he is UNABLE to do “good works”. **

At least “good works” in the Spirit.

His works are reduced to mere “natural virtue” instead of the supernatural grace of God at WORK in you.

Our works MUST be “together with him”.

If we fall from grace we CANNOT work “together with Him”. We would have accepted the grace of God in vain if we do not REMAIN in the Vine.

St. Paul warns us of this problem this way . . . . .

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

What are the types of things that can take me out of a state of grace? Things like “mortal sin” that St. John warns us about in 1st John 5:16-17 (here).

St Paul gives us some examples of sin that is potentially “mortal” or “deadly” to the life of grace concerning people who have already been “washed” or “baptized” too (here is one such passage—there are others) and now have dwelling in them the “Spirit of our God” . . . .

1st CORINTHIANS 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

MichaelP3. You also asked (here) . . .

(Do you believe) good works are a result of an internal change in man . . . .

Yes I do. (And I bet your Minister doesn’t believe this if you ask him/her. Ask him if "we are internally changed by God when we are saved OR are we merely “covered with Christ”.

I’ll bet he says you are merely “covered” like snow over dung or some such thing.)

But the question then becomes . . . . the “result of WHAT internal changes in man”.

And the answer to that is NOT faith ALONE but supernatural faith, hope, and charity (love).

That’s WHY St. Paul tells us faith WORKING in love DOES avails us something for example.

GALATIANS 5:6 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Faith, hope, and love are the “internal changes”.

And we must abide ALL these three.

And we also recognize St. Paul tells us the GREATEST of these three supernatural virtues is charity as St. Paul tells us in 1st Corinthians 13:13.

If we “love” God (or have this “charity”), we will keep His commandments He tells us in John 14 and John 15.

That is one of our measuring sticks to know if we are in Christ. To KNOW we are saved. To know we are making our “calling and election sure” (NIV) as St. Peter tells us.

2nd PETER 1:3a, 5a, 8a, 10a (RSVCE) 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness . . . 5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, . . . . 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful. . . .10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election. . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

SyCarl. You said in post 402 concerning Abraham . . .

So Abraham was not justified by works before God.

If you are intimating justification by faith ALONE . . . .

• WHY say something about Abraham, that St. Paul never says (faith “ALONE”).
• And WHY ignore other things about Abraham?
• And WHY say something that contradicts what St. James says?

 

[AugustTherese]

So Abraham was not justified by works before God. When James says that Abraham was justified by works, he must mean before men and not God. In other words we show ourselves to be justified by the works we do. This fits with the context of the rest of what James says. He asks of a person who says he has faith but no works. Can that faith save him? This is one place the distinction between justification and sanctification comes in. A person can be justified by faith but being saved also involves the works of sanctification. Again James contrasts one trying to prove he has faith without works while he shows his faith by his works.

“And He said to them, ‘You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God’.” Luke 16:15 NKJV

“For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.” Galatians 1:10 KJV

“But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.” Galatians 6:4 KJV

“Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.” 1 Corinthians 15:58 NIV

“But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.” John 3:21 NIV

"Therefore let no man glory in men."1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." Matthew 6:1-6 ESV

“Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.” 2 Corinthians 10:12 ESV

“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” Romans 2:13 ESV

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi LA

You didn’t ask me but I would like to add. I commend some posters on CAF that made me look into this a bit more. I will admit I never really understood baptism before. I can blame my “Sunday school” but thinking back, they actually tried. I was just one of those kids who would like to go home and play before school next day. But after going into this I understood I am basically the same with Catholics on this one. And that is also the teaching of my “Sunday School” days.

Point is, that is one of the times CAF actually helped me.

 

[lanman87]

Hi Ian.

I know you are not looking for debates and I respect that, but just wondering what your thoughts are on Jesus’ baptism? And the Holy Spirit coming upon him that very moment?

Seems that biblically, the Catholic Church is on point that the Spirit comes upon us at Baptism, but it also can occur through desire, w/o water such as the thief on the cross.

Can it occur, in your opinion, in both cases as the CC teaches??

Your right that I don’t like to debate on internet forums. I find that it rarely changes someones opinion about anything. However, I do find reading some of these debates and the reactions of what I post interesting. I’m in the process of trying to narrow down the difference between what I was taught and what the RCC teaches. I was amazed about how much is the same but I’m also amazed about how much is different.

One of the big differences is on Baptism and the Holy Spirit. From what I’ve read, the RCC teaches that the Holy Spirit indwells someone when they are baptized. I was taught that the Holy Spirit indwells someone when they place faith in Christ. And that the Holy Spirit is the “change agent” in a persons life.

As for the answer to your question. I believe the Holy Spirit can indwell someone before baptism, during baptism, or after baptism. There are examples of all three in the New Testament. I do think that the normal way it happens, both today and in the New Testament, at least after Cornelius was baptized, was someone believes(is indwelled with the Spirit) and is then baptized.

Here is what I was taught about Salvation.

That when someone without faith hears the Gospel then the Holy Spirit moves upon that person and convicts them of sin and their need for Christ. That person can either accept or reject the conviction of the Spirit. If that person accepts the conviction of the Spirit then they are moved to place faith in Christ. When they place faith in Christ they are immediately indwelled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit adopts them into the family of God, pours the Love of God into their hearts, imputes the righteousness of God into them, starts the process of sanctification which compels them to be conformed to the image of Christ, compels them to “good works” and produces the fruit of the spirit.

From what I can tell, Catholics would agree with everything except when the Holy Spirit comes upon someone and that the Holy Spirit imputes the righteousness of God into us, therefore we don’t rely on our own righteousness but on on God’s righteousness that He has given us.

 

[lanman87]

Ianman87. In post 381 you mentioned . . .

“Real faith” may do that.

But “real faith” may NOT do that too.

I’ve already shown you an example from St. Paul where a guy had “real faith”.

Real faith that “moves mountains”.

Real faith that a guy would be willing to give his body up to be “burned” with.

Real faith that St. Paul tells us we must “abide in”.

Yet if it is not accompanied by charity this “real faith” that he has, gains him “nothing” much less Heaven.

You’ve gotta have faith working through love or charity.

That’s WHY St. Paul tells us . . . .

Charity not faith is the principal source of merit in us before God.

That is WHY St. Paul says of faith, hope, charity, the greatest of these is charity in 1st Corinthians 13.

The Catholic Church puts that same concept this way (emphasis mine) . . . .

Yes faith has a role too. But you need charity as well. That’s one reason why faith ALONE cannot justify.

When we are Baptized, we have supernatural faith, hope, and charity infused into us.

We are Baptized into Christ’s life, death, and Resurrection as St. Paul suggests in Romans 6:3-5.

THEN when we are in Christ, we are EXPECTED to GROW IN Christ as we have been given so great a gift. And to whom much is GIVEN, much is REQUIRED (Luke 12:48).

If the person doesn’t have charity but has faith, his faith cannot save him and thus this is a “dead faith” but it is authentic.

And if this person gets their charity back through proper repentance, then their faith will come alive again too.

What do you think of this article?

 

[SyCarl]

Do you affirm God ACCOMPLISHES what He declares?

God makes us capable of wanting to be righteous and capable of trying to be righteous. However, God’s standard is perfection. Jesus said in Matthew 5:48:

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

We are not perfect, therefore we have not been made righteous. Augustine states:

Therefore the first commandment about righteousness, which bids us love the Lord with all our heart, and soul, and mind (the next to which is, that we love our neighbour as ourselves), we shall completely fulfil in that life when we shall see face to face. But even now this commandment is enjoined upon us, that we may be reminded what we ought by faith to require, and what we should in our hope look forward to, and, “forgetting the things which are behind, reach forth to the things which are before.” And thus, as it appears to me, that man has made a far advance, even in the present life, in the righteousness which is to be perfected hereafter, who has discovered by this very advance how very far removed he is from the completion of righteousness.

(On the Spirit and the Letter, Chapter 64)
newadvent.org/fathers/1502.htm

It should also be noted that Paul indicates, in various translations, that faith is credited, reputed, counted, reckoned or accounted, as righteousness. He does not state made righteous.

I have no problem with God “declaring” us as “righteous”. But if you are positing that it is a declaration “ALONE” I am going to take issue with that.

This is part of where the matter of semantics comes in. There are changes that take place in us. However, the Reformed would place that under regeneration not justification. Therefore justification is strictly a declaration.

But that’s part of WHY justification is a process SyCarl.

Justification is a lifelong process.

Being “born again” or “Born of water and the Spirit” is just the beginning of that process.

Again this is where the question of semantics comes in. To Reformed the process by which we work out our salvation and try to be holy falls under sanctification, which is a lifelong process, not justification.

 

[rcwitness]

… I’m in the process of trying to narrow down the difference between what I was taught and what the RCC teaches. I was amazed about how much is the same but I’m also amazed about how much is different.

Yes. There are common tenants of faith for sure! And sometimes hard to see only because of language and terms.

One of the big differences is on Baptism and the Holy Spirit. From what I’ve read, the RCC teaches that the Holy Spirit indwells someone when they are baptized. I was taught that the Holy Spirit indwells someone when they place faith in Christ. And that the Holy Spirit is the “change agent” in a persons life.

How is Baptism opposed to the candidate “placing faith in Christ”? How are you able to set the two apart from each other? Or how is the Holy Spirit absent in a Baptism? He is called upon, right?

If you are referring to Infant Baptism, there are other concepts and believes that accompany that.

 

[ajcstr]

Yes. There are common tenants of faith for sure! And sometimes hard to see only because of language and terms.

How is Baptism opposed to the candidate “placing faith in Christ”? How are you able to set the two apart from each other? Or how is the Holy Spirit absent in a Baptism? He is called upon, right?

If you are referring to Infant Baptism, there are other concepts and believes that accompany that.

Dr Brant Pitre of Catholic Productions has said that infant baptism is an expression of the belief that initial justification is a pure gift of Grace.

 

[SyCarl]

SyCarl. You said in post 402 concerning Abraham . . .
If you are intimating justification by faith ALONE . . . .

• WHY say something about Abraham, that St. Paul never says (faith “ALONE”).
• And WHY ignore other things about Abraham?
• And WHY say something that contradicts what St. James says?

I am not contradicting what James wrote, I am attempting to reconcile Paul and James. Paul says that if Abraham was justified by works he had something to boast about but not before God. So Abraham was not justified by works before God. Augustine said:

“Not so our father Abraham. This passage of scripture is meant to draw our attention to the difference. We confess that the holy patriarch was pleasing to God; this is what our faith affirms about him. So true is it that we can declare and be certain that he did have grounds for pride before God, and this is what the apostle tells us. It is quite certain, he says, and we know it for sure, that Abraham has grounds for pride before God. But if he had been justified by works, he would have had grounds for pride, but not before God. However, since we know he does have grounds for pride before God, it follows that he was not justified on the basis of works. So if Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified?” The apostle goes on to tell us how: What does scripture say? (that is, about how Abraham was justified). Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.

(John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Part 3, Vol. 15, trans. Maria Boulding, O.S.B., Expositions of the Psalms 1-32, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 2 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 2000), p. 364.)

Yet James says that Abraham was justified by works. If this is not to contradict Paul, it must mean that Abraham was justified by works before someone other than God.

While Paul does not say faith alone, the connection was still made by some in the early church.

Chrysostom

But after saying that “it was excluded,” he shows also, how. How then does he say it was excluded? “By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith.” See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.

(Homilies on Romans, Homily 7)
newadvent.org/fathers/210207.htm

For as men, upon receiving some great good, ask themselves if it is not a dream, as not believing it; so it is with respect to the gifts of God. What then was it that was thought incredible? That those who were enemies, and sinners, neither justified by the law, nor by works, should immediately through faith alone be advanced to the highest favor…Against this he contends; for it seemed to them incredible, that a man who had mis-spent all his former life in vain and wicked actions, should afterwards be saved by his faith alone. On this account he says, “It is a saying to be believed.”

(Homilies on 1 Timothy, Homily 4)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.v.iii.v.html

Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. “And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith.” From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision.

(Commentary on the Acts of the Apostles, Homily 32)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111.vi.xxxii.html

Ambrosiaster

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”

(Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VII: 1-2 Corinthians (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1999), p. 6.)

“This refers to somebody who is bound by sin and who therefore does not do what the law commands. Paul says this because to an ungodly person, that is to a Gentile, who believes in Christ without doing the works of the law, his faith is reckoned for righteousness just as Abraham’s was. How then can the Jews think that they have been justified by the works of the law in the same way as Abraham, when they see that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law but by faith alone? Therefore there is no need of the law when the ungodly is justified before God by faith alone.”

(Commentary on Paul’s Epistles (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 108.))

Marius Victorinus

Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ. For the patriarchs prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith. Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham that he had faith, so we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous.

(Epistle to the Galatians, 1.3.7. Mark J. Edwards, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 39.)

 

[rcwitness]

Dr Brant Pitre of Catholic Productions has said that infant baptism is an expression of the belief that initial justification is a pure gift of Grace.

And rightly so. But I was addressing adult Baptism, and asking how an adult, receiving Baptism, could be opposed to “placing faith in Jesus”.

 

[lanman87]

Yes. There are common tenants of faith for sure! And sometimes hard to see only because of language and terms.

How is Baptism opposed to the candidate “placing faith in Christ”? How are you able to set the two apart from each other? Or how is the Holy Spirit absent in a Baptism? He is called upon, right?

If you are referring to Infant Baptism, there are other concepts and believes that accompany that.

Baptism, for a Baptist at least, does a few things. First, it is a picture of what has already happened spiritually, it is an act of obedience to the commands of Christ, and it is sort of an initiation into the membership of the local church. To a Baptist, the Holy Spirit is already indwelling the believer before Baptism.

Before Baptism the candidate is interviewed by a pastor or other leadership to try and determine if they have actually placed faith in Christ. Then they are brought before the church as a candidate and the church votes to admit the candidate into the membership of the church. I say, “try to determine” because it is possible to profess faith and have all the right answers, yet never have had a change in heart that is brought on by the indwelling spirit. It is having intellectual knowledge of Christ but not having allowed the Holy Spirit to use that knowledge to transform the heart.

We baptist are big on God changing our heart.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Your right that I don’t like to debate on internet forums. I find that it rarely changes someones opinion about anything. However, I do find reading some of these debates and the reactions of what I post interesting. I’m in the process of trying to narrow down the difference between what I was taught and what the RCC teaches. I was amazed about how much is the same but I’m also amazed about how much is different.

One of the big differences is on Baptism and the Holy Spirit. From what I’ve read, the RCC teaches that the Holy Spirit indwells someone when they are baptized. I was taught that the Holy Spirit indwells someone when they place faith in Christ. And that the Holy Spirit is the “change agent” in a persons life.

As for the answer to your question. I believe the Holy Spirit can indwell someone before baptism, during baptism, or after baptism. There are examples of all three in the New Testament. I do think that the normal way it happens, both today and in the New Testament, at least after Cornelius was baptized, was someone believes(is indwelled with the Spirit) and is then baptized.

Here is what I was taught about Salvation.

That when someone without faith hears the Gospel then the Holy Spirit moves upon that person and convicts them of sin and their need for Christ. That person can either accept or reject the conviction of the Spirit. If that person accepts the conviction of the Spirit then they are moved to place faith in Christ. When they place faith in Christ they are immediately indwelled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit adopts them into the family of God, pours the Love of God into their hearts, imputes the righteousness of God into them, starts the process of sanctification which compels them to be conformed to the image of Christ, compels them to “good works” and produces the fruit of the spirit.

From what I can tell, Catholics would agree with everything except when the Holy Spirit comes upon someone and that the Holy Spirit imputes the righteousness of God into us, therefore we don’t rely on our own righteousness but on on God’s righteousness that He has given us.

Thank you.

Yes our understanding of justification differs. Upon baptism a soul is 100% clean and prepared for heaven. So if they die in that state they go straight to heaven.

Of course most go on living and sinning. So they need to be cleaned up. Luther says we are dung covered snow. The CC essentially says that God takes dung and transforms it into flowers. No dung in heaven(Rev 21:27)…clean up here or do it in purgatory 1 Cor 3:15.

God bless.

 

[rcwitness]

Baptism, for a Baptist at least, does a few things. First, it is a picture of what has already happened spiritually, it is an act of obedience to the commands of Christ, and it is sort of an initiation into the membership of the local church. To a Baptist, the Holy Spirit is already indwelling the believer before Baptism.

Before Baptism the candidate is interviewed by a pastor or other leadership to try and determine if they have actually placed faith in Christ. Then they are brought before the church as a candidate and the church votes to admit the candidate into the membership of the church. I say, “try to determine” because it is possible to profess faith and have all the right answers, yet never have had a change in heart that is brought on by the indwelling spirit. It is having intellectual knowledge of Christ but not having allowed the Holy Spirit to use that knowledge to transform the heart.

We baptist are big on God changing our heart.

We don’t deny the work of the Holy Spirit converting a person to belief before Baptism. An adult must already be drawn by God to desire Baptism. Baptism brings personal forgiveness of sins and reception into the Body of the Church. Baptism of desire is about those who lack knowledge or ability to receive the Sacrament, yet still receive the gift of faith, hope and charity. What you seem to be doing, is denying a real and efficacious act that occurs at the moment of Baptism.

So Baptism in necessary for those who understand it, and are not prevented against their will from receiving.

Also, Baptism does not guarantee one’s final state of justification. Consider Simon the Magician, in Acts.

 

[lanman87]

We don’t deny the work of the Holy Spirit converting a person to belief before Baptism. An adult must already be drawn by God to desire Baptism. Baptism brings personal forgiveness of sins and reception into the Body of the Church. Baptism of desire is about those who lack knowledge or ability to receive the Sacrament, yet still receive the gift of faith, hope and charity. **What you seem to be doing, is denying a real and efficacious act that occurs at the moment of Baptism. **

So Baptism in necessary for those who understand it, and are not prevented against their will from receiving.

Also, Baptism does not guarantee one’s final state of justification. Consider Simon the Magician, in Acts.

Yes, baptist and most protestants understanding about Baptism is that it does not convey the forgiveness of sins, the Holy Spirit, or Grace. But that faith/belief conveys those things and Baptism is a act of obedience and a symbolic picture of having received those things.

It amazes me how these threads jump in rabbit trails

 

[rcwitness]

Yes, baptist and most protestants understanding about Baptism is that it does not convey the forgiveness of sins, the Holy Spirit, or Grace. But that faith/belief conveys those things and Baptism is a act of obedience and a symbolic picture of having received those things.

It amazes me how these threads jump in rabbit trails

I’m under the impression that most Protestants (Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist) do have the same beliefs as Catholics about Baptism. No?

 

[lanman87]

I’m under the impression that most Protestants (Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist) do have the same beliefs as Catholics about Baptism. No?

I don’t know about Lutheran and Anglican. I guess my view is shaped by the fact I live in the South and just about everyone I know is Baptist, Pentecostal or Methodist. The Church of Christ do believe that Baptism gives forgiveness of sins. There are a lot of those in my area.

My wife was United Methodist and they also taught believers Baptism, however, they think sprinkling or pouring are valid forms of baptism and Baptist do not.

 

[rcwitness]

I don’t know about Lutheran and Anglican. I guess my view is shaped by the fact I live in the South and just about everyone I know is Baptist, Pentecostal or Methodist. The Church of Christ do believe that Baptism gives forgiveness of sins. There are a lot of those in my area.

There is a great big world of Christianity outside “the South”…

My wife was United Methodist and they also taught believers Baptism, however, they think sprinkling or pouring are valid forms of baptism and Baptist do not.

If Baptism isn’t efficacious, but only a symbol of what has already happened, then what would the significance of “valid” or “invalid” be?

 

[lanman87]

There is a great big world of Christianity outside “the South”…

If Baptism isn’t efficacious, but only a symbol of what has already happened, then what would the significance of “valid” or “invalid” be?

It is just being true to the New Testament Example. It is the belief that baptisms in the New Testament were by immersion.