Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

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PRmerger said:
They were indeed taught and practiced by the Apostles.

We know this through Sacred Tradition.
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Don’t take this the wrong way, but how do you know that Sacred Tradition is truth?

Anyone who has ever played the gossip game knows that stories change as they are passed from one person to the next.

How do you know that those things aren’t based on legends and fictitious stories and misunderstandings that were passed around and changed to reflect peoples hopes and biases, but eventually accepted as fact? The early church fathers, especially those who came 100+ years after the Apostles were as susceptible as anyone to misinformation. Just because they believed something to be true doesn’t mean it was true.

I’m not asking that question to be snarky or combative. As someone who is trying to learn about Catholicism I think it is a fair question.
 
lanman87 said:
Don’t take this the wrong way, but how do you know that Sacred Tradition is truth?
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Well, if you can’t know that Sacred Tradition is truth then you’re in big, big trouble as a reader of the NT and believer that all of those 27 books are theopneustos.

For the ONLY way you know this is because this was handed down through…

Sacred Tradition.
 
James248 said:
Sorry I wasn’t done.

You also mentioned works. I’m not denying the necessity of faith. Faith is a seed planted within us by God, but it must bear fruit. We can’t leave it under a bushel!: With God that seed can become a tree that bears great fruit. We need to persevere in good works throughout our lives with God’s help to perfect our faith so that it may produce fruit. We see this in Abraham’s life. Abraham’s faith worked together with his works, and by them it became perfect. He went from leaving his homeland to a place he didn’t know, to cling to the promise of many descendants even though he was past the normal age, and to sacrifice his son Isaac with the firm belief that God could raise him from death. “Was not Abraham found faithful in the trial? And was it not credited to him as righteousness?”
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I’m assuming this is the post you are talking about.

I think that folks arguing Faith or Faith+works about Abraham totally miss the point. Abraham was chosen by God to be the Father of a great nation. Along the way, he was faithful in some things and unfaithful in others. He lied about his wife being his sister (well technically he didn’t but he was being deceitful). He was disobedient by having Ishmael instead of waiting on the Lord to give him a son. But God used him despite his sinfulness and fulfilled His promise to Abraham. God, of course, knew everything Abraham was going to do but chose to use him anyway. The entire story of Abraham is more about the faithfulness of God than the justification of Abraham.

Was Abraham justified because he had faith or did his works justify him? Well, I would say if he didn’t have absolute faith in God he would never have offered Issac on the alter. The purpose of James saying that Abraham was justified by placing Issac on the alter is to show us what real faith looks like. We are to be as faithful as Abraham. We are to be willing to give up everything, even our families and children if necessary, because we have faith in Christ.

I know we’ve gone round and round and that is okay. Nothing is ever solved in these types of debates. I still say the entire premise of the James passage is to exhort the readers to have such a strong faith (instead of being hears of the word and not doers) that they have the kind of life changing faith that changes the entire focus of their lives to one of being selfish to being selfless. As I’ve said elsewhere, if I see someone who says, “I have faith” but their life doesn’t show any signs of having faith then I would tell them to examine themselves to see if they really believe in Christ. You can hear the gospel and say you believe the gospel but being a Christian is living the gospel. Does that mean works justify? Maybe. Or maybe faith justifies and living the gospel is the result of being justified. I’m sure the theological battle will rage until we are all called home to Glory.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, if you can’t know that Sacred Tradition is truth then you’re in big, big trouble as a reader of the NT and believer that all of those 27 books are theopneustos.

For the ONLY way you know this is because this was handed down through…

Sacred Tradition.
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How about I re-phrase and ask how can you know ALL the sacred traditions are truth?
 
PRmerger said:
Well, if you can’t know that Sacred Tradition is truth then you’re in big, big trouble as a reader of the NT and believer that all of those 27 books are theopneustos.

For the ONLY way you know this is because this was handed down through…

Sacred Tradition…
Click to expand...
Also, we can, through history, see how the Scriptures were formed, what struggles the early church had with gnostic beliefs and the criteria used that became a consensus on what writings the church considered inspired. In other words, it is more than oral tradition, is it documented where scripture came from and how it was formed.

I’ve been looking for similar documentation for those things you mentioned.
 
It was mentioned that grace might be merited through either faith or works maybe. I was taught that Christ merited the grace we receive by His death and resurrection which makes sense since none of us earn, deserve or merit graces as its freely given Am I wrong in that?
 
PRmerger said:
We’ll have to agree to disagree here, friend.

This is an obscenity/monstrosity/behemoth.

And this is only a drop in the bucket.

For it doesn’t include the independent corner churches which are popping up on every street corner in every city in the world.

Like this:

http://craphound.com/images/brooklynstorefrontchurch.jpg

And this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23987&d=1496408974

Nor does it count the independent churches which are meeting in homes. In fact, my next door neighbors have started their own church, with 5 family members, with their own “Biblical” beliefs.
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And more than likely not one can link itself to the Evangelical Catholics in central Europe that issued the formal protest against the 2nd Diet of Speyer in 1529, if they even know what it is.

Jon
 
spina1953 said:
It was mentioned that grace might be merited through either faith or works maybe. I was taught that Christ merited the grace we receive by His death and resurrection which makes sense since none of us earn, deserve or merit graces as its freely given Am I wrong in that?
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👍

And if this is the Catholic view, my issue with the Catholic Church on soteriology is, essentially, resolved.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
And more than likely not one can link itself to the Evangelical Catholics in central Europe that issued the formal protest against the 2nd Diet of Speyer in 1529, if they even know what it is.

Jon
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Link? Perhaps.

Submit to the authority of someone other than the pastor?

Not so much.

These guys are all independent in their theology, praxis, and fiscal obligations.
 
lanman87 said:
Also, we can, through history, see how the Scriptures were formed, what struggles the early church had with gnostic beliefs and the criteria used that became a consensus on what writings the church considered inspired.
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Firstly, how do you know that gnostic beliefs aren’t part of the kerygma, except through Sacred Tradition?

You can’t “We know that gnostic beliefs are wrong, so the texts which contained gnostic teachings were rejected” unless you ALREADY had the kerygma…right?

And that means, you had it through Sacred Tradition.
In other words, it is more than oral tradition, is it documented where scripture came from and how it was formed.
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I don’t understand this sentence. Could you please explain?
I’ve been looking for similar documentation for those things you mentioned.
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What documentation do you have from the Apostles that Hebrews belongs in the NT?
 
spina1953 said:
Hi JonNC, How so?
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Because you said:

It was mentioned that grace might be merited through either faith or works maybe. I was taught that Christ merited the grace we receive by His death and resurrection which makes sense since none of us earn, deserve or merit graces as its freely given Am I wrong in that?

I don’t think this is wrong at all
 
PRmerger said:
Firstly, how do you know that gnostic beliefs aren’t part of the kerygma, except through Sacred Tradition?

You can’t “We know that gnostic beliefs are wrong, so the texts which contained gnostic teachings were rejected” unless you ALREADY had the kerygma…right?

And that means, you had it through Sacred Tradition.

I don’t understand this sentence. Could you please explain?

What documentation do you have from the Apostles that Hebrews belongs in the NT?
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I don’t want to hijack this thread. I’ll start another one later this weekend.
 
Ianman87.

You said . . . .
because we have been “saved” and continue to be “saved”, by the Grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling within us.
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This is great Ianman87.

If I were to ask my Baptist teachers I had when I was younger I may have been corrected to remind me that Jesus just “covers us” and interiorly we remain dirty vile sinners.

You’ve got it (at least this part) RIGHT!

And its a big deal.

There is a lot of things I would take issue with you on here on this thread, but the INDWELLING of the Spirit of God, . . . . you IN Jesus and . . . He IN you, . . . . .is not one of them.

Maybe this will help you see THIS is how we are connected to each other too (via Christ), and being IN Christ and communing with one another in this world AND in the next (the Communion of Saints) and help you eventually better understand WHY Catholics pray for one another . . . Even in the next life.

The fact that you are at least flirting with infused righteousness, vrs. mere imputed righteousness will come back to pay enormous spiritual dividends in your theology and spiritual life.

Keep up the good theological work Ianman87!

Right now I am basically an observer, but I’ll try later to get back here in front of the computer (this is only an android device post. The computer is where I can make a better contribution in something like this).
 
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