Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[spina1953]

Hi JonNC, What do you mean by this : the sola fide could you expound a bit on that please thanks.

 

[Donaldm]

I am saddened by the arguments in this thread. Those who argue James 2:17 as an example of Faith/Works fail to understand to whom this letter was written and when.
“1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.” This was written about 45 AD. It was addressed to the Jews.
This was written before Paul started his ministry of the Dispensation of Grace. Eph. 1:10

Apostle Paul's Timeline - Study Resources

Timeline of the Apostle Paul includes the Year, The Life of Paul, the Books Written, and Historical Events. 'The chronology and dating...are still disputed...'

www.blueletterbible.org

There is no conflict within the Bible. Conflict grows out of a misinterpreting of Scripture.
What Paul taught was what He received by revelation: Eph. 3
"3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

What Paul taught was new. Hidden in God from the beginning. A new revelation of the Age of Grace. Eph. 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;"

 

[Donaldm]

It is by Faith. Period. our “works” are nothing but the result of Christ within us: Eph. 4
"22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

That the Church and apostles were ignorant of Paul’s gospel Paul tells us himself: Gal. 1

"2 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain."

You have to let Scripture interpret Scripture and everything comes into focus. There simply is not any conflict between James and Paul.

2nd Timothy 2
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[spina1953]

If a person says he is justified because he has faith but does nothing with it no works only the faith how is he justified? If all it took was to say I have faith now I am justified anyone could say that and do whatever because it does not matter what a person does or does not do; one could around all day long committing sins of every kind but because he said I have faith in Christ I am justified. In some sense this is what I get in a way maybe not from everyone but those few who say once they have faith they are justified and need not do anything with the gift of faith they received. For me to be justified would mean more than just faith but a faith in action doing works that show faith in Christ.

 

[ajcstr]

“In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God.

Circumcism is a reference to works of law. Not good works. Everything you say after “I.e.” is interpretation.

 

[ajcstr]

What saddens me is that a Protestant would look at someone with faith but no works as unsaved because he does not have a saving faith. A catholic would say he isn’t saved.because he has no works.

Do we really need to argue this? We both agree there is something lacking here. This is left Twix right Twix stuff.

We should both be arguing agains the Catholic who believes he can earn salvation and the Protestant who thinks he needs no works because he said the sinners prayer. Both these individuals are out there.

 

[lanman87]

We should both be arguing against the Catholic who believes he can earn salvation and the Protestant who thinks he needs no works because he said the sinners prayer. Both these individuals are out there.

I agree. (16 character limit)

 

[spina1953]

ajcstr, I agree there are those from both side of the camp; one saying no works and the other who thinks one can earn salvation. Neither is correct in my view. One does not earn or merit or deserve salvation. Salvation is a promise not a garrantee. I really do not know if I’m justified by my faith in Christ Jesu or that any good work I do is going to save me. I know Jesus said to store up treasures in heaven and that to let good works shine so that others who see will give glory to God.I guess what I’m saying is I rely on the mercy of Christ that is I rely of Christ mercy not on my faith or any good works I do

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

“In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God.

Circumcism is a reference to works of law. Not good works. Everything you say after “I.e.” is interpretation.

Well, it isn’t my quote, but my works, if they are good, are good because of the Spirit working in me.

 

[JonNC]

We should both be arguing agains the Catholic who believes he can earn salvation and the Protestant who thinks he needs no works because he said the sinners prayer. Both these individuals are out there.

Absolutely …

 

[JonNC]

Hi JonNC, What do you mean by this : the sola fide could you expound a bit on that please thanks.

Sure. Sola fide teaches that it is by grace alone through faith alone in the saving work of Christ alone that we access justification.
Once justified, the Christian is empowered by the guidance of the Spirit to do the good works He has prepared for us to do. failure to do good works is a rejection of grace.

 

[lanman87]

We should both be arguing agains the Catholic who believes he can earn salvation and the Protestant who thinks he needs no works because he said the sinners prayer. Both these individuals are out there.

Replying again to add:

I pray that some in both camps read through the 1500+ post on this thread and realize that you can’t earn salvation by your works and you can’t be saved if the faith you claim to have hasn’t doesn’t produce a changed heart, attitude and actions (works) in their life then they need take a long hard look at their “claim to faith” because any faith that doesn’t produce works isn’t a saving faith.

I said on another thread, Faith without obedience(works) isn’t really faith and obedience(works) without faith isn’t really obedience.

 

[ajcstr]

An with this many posts, ok, not going to change anyone’s mind, but I always want to understand the other position. Soooooo

The person who is not always obedient…

We say a prayer in mass…I have sinned in my thoughts, in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do… This fits perfectly in our understanding of faith and works. The Catholic would resolve to do better in the future.

From a Protestant perspective, how would you correct the “what I have failed to do” part. Since works would flow from a saving faith, I don’t understand how the Protestant would resolve this.

 

[ajcstr]

Well, it isn’t my quote, but my works, if they are good, are good because of the Spirit working in me.

Please see my last post

 

[JonNC]

An with this many posts, ok, not going to change anyone’s mind, but I always want to understand the other position. Soooooo

The person who is not always obedient…

We say a prayer in mass…I have sinned in my thoughts, in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do… This fits perfectly in our understanding of faith and works. The Catholic would resolve to do better in the future.

From a Protestant perspective, how would you correct the “what I have failed to do” part. Since works would flow from a saving faith, I don’t understand how the Protestant would resolve this.

When Lutheran, and now as Anglican, we say essentially the same Confession of sin, and receive absolution from the priest. This is entirely scriptural: if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

St Paul speaks about how the good I would do, that I do not. The wrong I would not do, that I do. This is the circumstance of being sinners. We sin. Prompted by the Spirit, we seek reconciliation through word and sacraments. What we fail to do is as much sin as what we do. So, no change

 

[lanman87]

From a Protestant perspective, how would you correct the “what I have failed to do” part. Since works would flow from a saving faith, I don’t understand how the Protestant would resolve this.

I have been taught that there are sins of commission (things we do) and sins of omission (things we should do but don’t). At almost every service in a Southern Baptist Church we are called to examine our life and hearts and repent of sins that we may be committing. Either sins of commission or sins of omission. We are also encouraged to confess our sins to God and if we are struggling with a sin to get counseling and help to overcome the sin. In addition, if we have sinned against someone we are instructed to go to that person and ask for forgiveness and reconciliation.

I’ve been in a Presbyterian service where they have moments in the service for private confession in prayer to God and opportunity is given to talk with and pray with a pastor concerning issues of faith.

Keep in mind, in most Evangelical circles we are not absolved by a priest. We go directly to God in prayer and confession of our sins. We believe that we are all priest in that we have direct access to “the throne of Grace” through the one mediator Christ Jesus. This is what we mean by “personal relationship with Christ”. So when we sin we deal directly with God concerning our sins.

 

[JonNC]

Keep in mind, in most Evangelical circles we are not absolved by a priest. We go directly to God in prayer and confession of our sins. We believe that we are all priest in that we have direct access to “the throne of Grace” through the one mediator Christ Jesus. This is what we mean by “personal relationship with Christ”. So when we sin we deal directly with God concerning our sins.

For those who confess to a priest, it might be better said that we go to a priest to make our confession to God. The priest acts to “bind or loose” as commanded in scripture. He Announces absolution. God forgives.

 

[ajcstr]

You guys may be missing my point. Here is my logic, tell me where I am off.

Since I have failed to perform a work, and since works are an extension of a saving faith, something in my faith must be lacking. Do I now need to increase/improve my faith so that more good works will be produced.

I guess my confusion is that I understand (I think) that if there is a “switch” for saved/unsaved and faith flips the switch. But the faith must be a saving faith to flip that switch - which is what I have pulled from your comments on this thread. So if I find myself with faith, but apparently not a saving faith, and my actions don’t affect that switch at all, what is the solution? I don’t think we would be into sanctification yet if the faith is not a saving faith.

The confession thing is throwing me also because confession (for Catholics at least) is expressing a failure in our actions, not necessarily our faith.

 

[JonNC]

=“ajcstr, post:1561, topic:442045, full:true”]
You guys may be missing my point. Here is my logic, tell me where I am off.

I thought I already did, but I’ll try again.

Since I have failed to perform a work, and since works are an extension of a saving faith, something in my faith must be lacking. Do I now need to increase/improve my faith so that more good works will be produced.

Would you agree that St. Paul in expressing his frustration with himself speaks for the human condition?
If so, that’s the point.

I guess my confusion is that I understand (I think) that if there is a “switch” for saved/unsaved and faith flips the switch. But the faith must be a saving faith to flip that switch - which is what I have pulled from your comments on this thread.

Okay, that confuses me, because that doesn’t even remotely relate to anything I’ve said.

So if I find myself with faith, but apparently not a saving faith, and my actions don’t affect that switch at all, what is the solution? I don’t think we would be into sanctification yet if the faith is not a saving faith.

Why does the Church offer confession to its members? Isn’t it because we are still sinful beings who make mistakes of commission and omission? Why is this and the Eucharist offered weekly? Isn’t it precisely because even people of faith fall into sin?

The confession thing is throwing me also because confession (for Catholics at least) is expressing a failure in our actions, not necessarily our faith.

Agreed. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” " If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Was confession set up for people with faith, or those without it? If for those with faith, isn’t that evidence that even people of faith falter, make bad decisions, act on their free will instead of the prompting of the Spirit. If it is for those without faith, why does the Catholic Church only offer private confession to members?

 

[ajcstr]

The “you” is collective to include lanman who has made a distinction between saving and non saving faith

And yes confession is for those with faith to confess their sins which are works related.

I guess I’ll go back to individual replies because I would guess you and lanman would not agree on several points either.