JW came knocking

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Nelka

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I had a JW come earlier, we had a bit of a debate, he threw this at me:

John 5:19 To this Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, by himself the Son can do nothing; he can do only what he sees the Father doing: and whatever the Father does the Son does too.

What did Jesus mean by this, he used it to say Jesus was inferior to God the Father?

When I told him:

Matthew 24:35 Sky and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

He fired back:

Ecclesiastes 1:4 A generation goes, a generation comes, yet the earth stands firm for ever.

Lastly, what is he talking about Jesus being hung on a stake instead of a Cross saying the Egyptians worshipped crosses.

He was using Greek with the stake part but my Greek is awful.

Any help would be great.

Thanks.
 
Nelka said:
I had a JW come earlier, we had a bit of a debate, he threw this at me:

John 5:19 To this Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, by himself the Son can do nothing; he can do only what he sees the Father doing: and whatever the Father does the Son does too.

What did Jesus mean by this, he used it to say Jesus was inferior to God the Father?
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He has to say “Jesus is inferior to the father”, it is their doctrine. Jesus and the father are separate. But if Jesus and the father are one, as we profess, how else can it be described? If they are one; can one do something without the other? No.
When I told him:
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Matthew 24:35 Sky and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
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He fired back:
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Ecclesiastes 1:4 A generation goes, a generation comes, yet the earth stands firm for ever.
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I don’t understand the context.
Lastly, what is he talking about Jesus being hung on a stake instead of a Cross saying the Egyptians worshipped crosses.
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He was using Greek with the stake part but my Greek is awful…
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He is trying to trick you into believing you (Christians) “worship” crosses as the pagans did and subsequently making you question your faith. I don’t know, or care, if pagans worshiped crosses. I do know what the church teaches and what I worship. Its not the cross or the stake. Don’t let him make you think that worship is in an act. True worship comes from the heart.

Peace!!!
 
The JW New World “Translation” (this is not a legitimate translation, and I am only using it as an example) refers to Jesus as Jehovah in its “translation” of the New Testament, the four dudes who made this “translation” missed out on some things when butchering it up to fit their arianism.

Look at Psalm 102:27-27 in the NWT:
21 So that the name of Jehovah will be declared in Zion+ And his praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples and kingdoms Gather together to serve Jehovah.+ 23 He prematurely robbed me of my strength; He cut short my days. 24 I said: “O my God, Do not do away with me in the middle of my life, You whose years span all generations.+ 25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands.+ 26 They will perish, but you will remain; Just like a garment they will all wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. 27 But you are the same, and your years will never end.+
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Compare this with their “translation” of Hebrews 1:6-12
6 But when he again brings his Firstborn+ into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”* 7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers*+ a flame of fire.”+ 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne+ forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.* 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you+ with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”+ 10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”+
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So Hebrews in their “translation” refers to Jesus and applies to him the quote from Psalm 102 that in their “translation” refers to Jehovah. Jesus is the same as Jehovah.
 
I would have said something like…there are 3 persons in 1 God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each individual beings in 1 God.
Sort of like a man can be a father, someone’s son, and uncle all at one time.
Plus there are many other references to this closeness in the Gospel of John one can refer too.
The other one I would have left alone. I would have stuck with the new testament only.
 
DaddyGirl said:
Yes, the cross has been used as a religious symbol for a long, long time by many.
It was used to represent the god Tammuz, who was worshiped way back in Babylon days…and also, for the Egyptian goddess Sekhet…and the Greek goddess, Diana–she is often portrayed with a cross above her head much like artists later portrayed Mary.
I think that the cross began wide use in Christianity around the third century? And the actual crucifix not until 2-3 hundred years later.
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Leaving aside the pagan parallelomania, Justin Martyr (105-165), Irenaeus of Lyons (130-202) and Tertullian (157-245) mention a cross. So no, not 2-3 hundred years later, about 100. Of course the question would be where did these men get their info from, since they are some of the earliest non-Biblical sources.
He references the stake…probably because in the original Greek manuscripts (or as far back as we have them) it says he was crucified on a “xulon”–which means a stick, club, or tree…or “stauros” which means “upright stake.”
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Many doctors, archeologists, and scholars today believe he died on a simple stake, and not a cross. A full cross would have been too heavy for one man to carry on his back and also, say scientists, a person would take days to die. Whereas on a stake or pole, with one’s hands nailed above them, it would be a matter of hours.
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According to Raymond Brown in his Death of the Messiah, this was a synecdoche, using a part of something to refer to the whole, and Jesus carried the stauros to be used as a crossbeam, and it wasn’t an upright stake by which Christ was crucified.

Not sure who these many scholars are you’re referring to here…Brown would disagree at least.
 
I have learnt to art of changing conversation,when cornered by J W’s I change subject,
Talk about politics,mowing the grass,painting the house,anything other than religion,
 
DaddyGirl said:
Yes, I know they mention the cross in their writing.
My reference to “2-3 hundred years later” was not about the cross or about crucifixion, but regarding when the crucifix became a widespread symbol in the Christian religion.
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My concern is only the instrument of execution for Jesus. The JWs are wrong about this.
John Pearson, Bishop of Chester (c. 1660) wrote in his commentary on the Apostles’ Creed that the Greek word stauros originally signified “a straight standing Stake, Pale, or Palisador”…which was used.
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Other biblical scholars who agree include:
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English Biblical scholar/theologian W. E. Vine,
theologian E. W. Bullinger,
and Christian author Henry Dana Ward (author of “History of the Cross”).
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There are dozens more, I’ll dig 'em up.
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I’m pretty sure Jesus on a stake is a fringe position and I could list literally thousands of biblical scholars, historians and archeologists who agree that he was crucified on a cross if I were inclined. But I’m not. I just thought you might be interested in how Raymond Brown (“One of the greatest scholars of the second half of the twentieth century” according to Bart Ehrman) explained the synedoche involved in the gospels here.
 
He also told me that Peter and the other apostles were Jehovah’s Witnesses which I disagreed with him.

How do I fight his bible, how do I get him to understand? You thought his bible was the most accurate, I mentioned the Vulgate but he said his bible was translated from the Vulgate.

I feel I could have stood there for hours debating but had to go to work, I just hope I made even a tiny impact but he didn’t believe Jesus was St. Michael which I thought they did.
 
Nelka said:
How do I fight his bible, how do I get him to understand?
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You can’t. Only the Holy Spirit can, via prayer.

I ask them if they are protestants and they vehemently deny it. I then ask them why they use the Protestant 66 book bible. The canon of Luther and Calvin. Ask them if they are Lutherans or Calvinists. Few frowns there. They use the protestant argument that Mary had other children. They use the protestant rule of sola scriptura. Accuse them of being “too protestant.”

I cast seed out and pray that it finds depth of soil. It may take years.
 
First sense if they are willing to talk. If they want to debate you or take command of the conversation. Nicely separate yourself from them. There will be other days and other JW.
 
DaddyGirl said:
Many doctors, archeologists, and scholars today believe he died on a simple stake, and not a cross. A full cross would have been too heavy for one man to carry on his back and also, say scientists, a person would take days to die. Whereas on a stake or pole, with one’s hands nailed above them, it would be a matter of hours…
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Two things in the crucifixion narratives would lead me to believe that it was indeed a cross, not a stake, from the above points…
  1. Too heavy for one man? Didn’t Simon of Cyrene get pressed into helping Jesus carry the cross/stake?
  2. If death was expected in hours, why were the guards sent to break his legs and take him down so he wouldn’t be on the cross/stake on the Sabbath, only to find Jesus already dead?
 
Nelka said:
He also told me that Peter and the other apostles were Jehovah’s Witnesses which I disagreed with him.

How do I fight his bible, how do I get him to understand? You thought his bible was the most accurate, I mentioned the Vulgate but he said his bible was translated from the Vulgate.

I feel I could have stood there for hours debating but had to go to work, I just hope I made even a tiny impact but he didn’t believe Jesus was St. Michael which I thought they did.
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To me, the canon has been the point of conversation I continue to explore with them assuming, as someone has said, they are actually open to true conversation. Below is an excerpt from their 1963 Watchtower “All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial” page 302. The document shows what everybody agrees with, inconsistence in the canon up to the council Carthage. In reading the commentary you get a sense of smoke and mirrors discussing tangential issues, like mentioning of the omission of one of John’s letters within the canon, which comes across as impressive to the reader, and not directly addressing how this canon actually was developed.

But, as someone has said, trying to open the eyes of those who don’t want to believe their faith is wrong or that their faith is deceiving them, is only done by the Holy Spirit. :signofcross::gopray2::highprayer:

The questions I have for them and still waiting on an answers is:
  1. What is the Council of Carthage and why is it on one of their documents and what does having it on one of their documents prove?
  2. If Jerome doubted those shown to be doubted in their document, why do they still have these books in their canon sense they agree with removing the books he (Jerome) doubted in the OT canon?
Peace!!!
 
Tell them there being watched by Aliens ,there watching , and there close by,
 
So they’re basically saying that Greek Orthodox, who are Greek speakers, who have crosses on their churches, have cruciform icons of the crucifixion, don’t know their own language? That somehow, some American knows the real English translation of stauros than the Greeks themselves?
 
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