JW stopped by my house......

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1 thess 4:16 describes the command of Jesus as “the archangels call” in most Bibles. Jude 9 calls the archangel Michael. What is the problem?
Are you serious? 1 Thessalonians 4:16: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” By your theory, Christ is also God.
On the cross: Did you know the cross is a religious symbol that pagans used long before Christ walked the earth. I am trying to upload (but not sure if it has worked) a photo i took in the British Museum of a carving of a 700BC Assyrian king with a cross around his neck, worshipping a trinity of his gods.
Why would the true Christians adopt pagan customs and beliefs?
I’ve worked out how to add that. Thanks.
Oh gee, you found someone in pre-Christian history wearing a cross (which is an ankh, from Egypt)…you’ve just destroyed it all. As for a trinity of gods…the Assyrians were henotheists, with many gods. If one place depicts the king worshipping three at a time, it means nothing. I guess you think the Christians were doing archaeology and decided to rip off a civilization that ended 350 years earlier
 
What’s your comment being a JW, that the watchtower and JW leadership was a member of the United Nations all along, and it was a secret that no member knows?
Wow. I stirred up a hornets nest! Check out all the angry posts from an Assyrian wearing a cross the Catholic Church adopted! Sorry if the truth offends you.

On this UN thing. They weren’t a memeber " all along". you said in your earlier post it was 1992 they became an “Associate member of the United Nations Department of Public Information” (whatever that is) and then resigned or something in 2001! (All along?)
It isn’t a secret. I vaguely remember hearing about it at (a meeting I think). something about the Wt society signing up and later resigning when they realised it was official UN stuff.
We keep seperate from the political world, so couldn’t be attached to that. I know very little about it.
I see from your link there are lots of Catholic groups signed up. Jesus said his Kingdom was no part of the world.(John 18:36) Why are they so involved?

But I don’t doubt you are right. Somehow the religion I belong to logged on to a United Nations political media thing for several years before realising their mistake.
What shall I do brother?
Shall i resign? - and join a religion that signed a deal with the Nazi government in 1933?
The concordat between the Third Reich and the Vatican, which was concluded July 20, 1933. Signed by the future Pope no less. (I am interested. Did the Catholic church ever resign from that agreement?)
Hmmm. Difficult decision:
JW’s clumsily signed up to UN media thing for a few years or indefinate support of the Nazi party? Which?

Ha ha. Don’t get me started!
 
First, Christ himself used the cross and the apostles used it as much as saying that “we proclaim christ crucified” that’s why we use the cross to proclaim christ. This is an apostolic teaching.
New Catholic Encyclopedia: “The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion.”—(1967), Vol. IV, p. 486.

What changed?

The Imperial Bible-Dictionary: “The Greek word for cross, [stau‧ros′], properly signified a stake, an upright pole. ... Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.

So it probably wasn’t a cross Jesus was executed on anyway. Why adopt a pagan religious symbol? I don’t understand?
 
Oh gee, you found someone in pre-Christian history wearing a cross (which is an ankh, from Egypt)…you’ve just destroyed it all. As for a trinity of gods…the Assyrians were henotheists, with many gods. If one place depicts the king worshipping three at a time, it means nothing. I guess you think the Christians were doing archaeology and decided to rip off a civilization that ended 350 years earlier
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

No, not the Christians. The apostasy Jesus and Paul prophesied was well established by the time a Trinity was adopted. We can’t really call them Christians when they have confused the very relationship between Jesus and God.

"Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”
 
Or perhaps you would prefer a non-Catholic encyclopedia.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). ... The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. ... By the end of the 4th century ... the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

Sorry.
 
Did you know (like Islam) we believe there is only one God, the creator. Not a trinity as most of Christendom teaches. The Bible doesn’t teach that, and we base all our beliefs on what the Bible prophets say. Especially Jesus.
First of all hail brave Jehovah’s Witness!! I offer you warm welcome and my utter respect for seeking the truth and walking your talk; having the courage of your convictions! I think JW’s are great and wish more would come here and discuss God in earnest! Well done!!

Now, the first thing that struck me was the comment I have quoted above! Would you mind if I had a go at it?

OK–The core of the Christian message consists in the Mystery of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Himself understood His coming as a manifestation of the Father. Through Him all are made to share in the life and light of God. Hence the Christian doctrine about God is the foundation of the Church’s faith.

The earliest professions of faith are Christological and expressed in three concise formulas:

‘Jesus is the Christ’ (cf. Acts 2:36; 10:36; Col 2:6)

‘Jesus is the Lord’ (1 Cor 12:3; Rom 10:9; cf. Acts 2:36; Phil 2:11)

‘Jesus is the Son of God’ (cf. Acts 9:20; 13:33; Rom 1:4; Heb 4:14)

These formulae are developed in 1 Cor 15:3-4; Phil 2:6-11; 1 Tim 3:16.

The next step is the introduction of a Trinitarian profession of faith, a natural evolution as it was already latent in the Christological confession (cf Acts 2:33) and implied in the early kerygma (cf. Acts 2:14-39; 3:12-26; 4:8-12; 5:29-32; 10:34-43; 13:16-41). The Trinitarian profession of faith in the New Testament is best witnessed to by Mt 28:19-20 and 2 Cor 13:13; it corresponds to the Trinitarian teaching of the Apostle (cf. Eph 1:3-14).

The first Christians knew that God was one (cf. Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”) and yet Jesus was also God by His own word (cf. Jn 10:30). How do we explain this?

Does this make any sense? Do you want me to go on and show you where the Trinity is in the Old Testament?
 
On the cross: Did you know the cross is a religious symbol that pagans used long before Christ walked the earth.
Yes, it dates back to neolithic times as a symbol, but I can’t help thinking you’re missing the point. We preach Christ crucified (1 Corinthians 1:23) from the Latin cruci fixus meaning “(one) fixed to a cross”.

Perhaps the cave drawings, Ankh’s, and other uses for this geometrical figure consisting of two lines or bars perpendicular to each other, dividing one or two of the lines in half in some way pre-figured the most momentous event in history–the coming of God in real historical reality, but even if they didn’t, they are just geometrical figures consisting of two lines or bars perpendicular to each other, dividing one or two of the lines in half.

But we preach Christ crucified. The Cross is not important other than that it was the way the Roman’s killed people and Jesus was one of those people. I don’t know why you guys get so hung up on it!
 
the Catholic Christian concept of the Trinity is quite unique to world religions, not copied from another faith but progressively revealed by God in Sacred Scripture.

read more here: geocities.com/athens/acropolis/5743/trinity.html
I read more. What nonsence. There is no mention of the word “Trinity”. (that was made up centuries later) None of those scriptures mention three people. Just references to them being called ‘theos’ (god). If that is your arguement Paul was (theos) a god (Acts 28:6) and so was Moses (Exodus 4:16) and Satan (1 Corinthians 4:4)
Should we add them and make it a Hexinity?
Stick with the Bible. Don’t get influensed by Greek philosophy. You will end up believing the earth is the centre of the universe and have to threaten astronomers with heresay.

Do you realise how many scriptures a Bible student could quote proving Jesus is not God?
 
I read more. What nonsence. There is no mention of the word “Trinity”. (that was made up centuries later) None of those scriptures mention three people. Just references to them being called ‘theos’ (god). If that is your arguement Paul was (theos) a god (Acts 28:6)
St. Paul is bitten by a snake and doesn’t die. The people think he is a god (like Zeus or Apollo).
and so was Moses (Exodus 4:16)
This is about Moses being God’s prophet. No confusion there.
and Satan (1 Corinthians 4:4)
“My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.” I can’t even begin to see how you got anything from that, sorry!
Stick with the Bible. Don’t get influensed by Greek philosophy. You will end up believing the earth is the centre of the universe and have to threaten astronomers with heresay.
I think this is an understandable and common fallacy. The Early Christian Fathers were not Hellenised. They used Hellenic philosophical terms to preach the Gospel to the Greek speaking world. the message they brought was the Gospel message.
Do you realise how many scriptures a Bible student could quote proving Jesus is not God?
I would love to know! Do you know how many can be quoted to demonstrate that HE IS (deliberate pun on the Tetragrammaton there for any who got it! :p)
 
Now, the first thing that struck me was the comment I have quoted above! Would you mind if I had a go at it?
Please do.
OK–The core of the Christian message consists in the Mystery of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Himself understood His coming as a manifestation of the Father. Through Him all are made to share in the life and light of God. Hence the Christian doctrine about God is the foundation of the Church’s faith.

The earliest professions of faith are Christological and expressed in three concise formulas:

‘Jesus is the Christ’ (cf. Acts 2:36; 10:36; Col 2:6)

‘Jesus is the Lord’ (1 Cor 12:3; Rom 10:9; cf. Acts 2:36; Phil 2:11)

‘Jesus is the Son of God’ (cf. Acts 9:20; 13:33; Rom 1:4; Heb 4:14)

These formulae are developed in 1 Cor 15:3-4; Phil 2:6-11; 1 Tim 3:16.
No problems so far.
The next step is the introduction of a Trinitarian profession of faith, a natural evolution as it was already latent in the Christological confession (cf Acts 2:33) and implied in the early kerygma (cf. Acts 2:14-39; 3:12-26; 4:8-12; 5:29-32; 10:34-43; 13:16-41). The Trinitarian profession of faith in the New Testament is best witnessed to by Mt 28:19-20 and 2 Cor 13:13; it corresponds to the Trinitarian teaching of the Apostle (cf. Eph 1:3-14).

The first Christians knew that God was one (cf. Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”) and yet Jesus was also God by His own word (cf. Jn 10:30). How do we explain this?
Jesus didn’t say he was God in John 10:30. He said they were “one.”
He repeated this in John 17:21, comparing it to how his diciples would be “one.” Not the same person: United
Does this make any sense? Do you want me to go on and show you where the Trinity is in the Old Testament?
Please do.

Alas, it is after midnight in my part of the world, and I MUST sleep. I won’t reply for a day.

Regardless.

I will post an interesting list I got sent you might like to pary, and then I will log off.
Good night interesting people.
 
“My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.” I can’t even begin to see how you got anything from that, sorry!
It was 2 Corinth 4:4 . Sorry. (I must sleep soon.)
I think this is an understandable and common fallacy. The Early Christian Fathers were not Hellenised. They used Hellenic philosophical terms to preach the Gospel to the Greek speaking world. the message they brought was the Gospel message.)
yeh but they got well influenced by them. In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: “We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy ... The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.”
I would love to know! Do you know how many can be quoted to demonstrate that HE IS (deliberate pun on the Tetragrammaton there for any who got it! :p)
Ok.
If Jesus is God
  1. Why is he called the “firstborn” of all creation? Col 1:15. Rev. 3:14.
  2. Why did he say he did not come of his “own initiative” but was sent? John 8:42, 1 John 4:9.
  3. Why did Jesus not know the “day and the hour” of the Great tribulation but God did? Matt 24:36.
  4. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer?
  5. How did he “appear before the person of God for us? Heb 9:24.
  6. Why did Jesus say “the father is greater than I am”? John 14:28.
  7. Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his baptism saying: “This is my son.”? Matt. 3:17.
  8. How could he be exalted to a superior position? Php. 2:9,10.
  9. How can he be the “mediator between God and man”? 1 Tim 2:5.
  10. Why did Paul say “the head of Christ is God”? 1 Cor 11:30.
  11. Why did Jesus “hand over the Kingdom to his God” and “subject himself to God”? 1 Cor. 15:24, 28.
  12. Who does he refer to as “my God and your God”? John 20:17.
  13. How does he sit at God’s right hand? Ps. 110:1, Heb. 10:12,13.
  14. Why does John say “no man has seen God at any time”? John 1:18.
  15. Why did people not die whan they saw Jesus? Ex. 30:20.
  16. How was Jesus dead and God alive at the same time? Acts 2:24.
  17. Why did he need someone to save him? Heb. 5:7.
  18. Who is being refered to prophetically at Prov. 8:22-31?
  19. Why did Jesus say “all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth”? Matt. 28:18, Dan 7:13,14
  20. Why did he have godly fear? Heb 5:7.
  21. How could he learn obedience and be made perfect? Heb 5:8,9.
  22. Why would an angel be able to strengthen him or angels minister to him? Luke 22:43, Matt 4:11.
  23. Why would Satan try to tempt him if he knew that he was God? Matt. 4:1-11.
  24. How could Jesus be made “lower than the angels”? Heb 2:7.
  25. If Jesus was God, who was he be tempted to rebel against”? Matt. 4:1.
  26. Why did he cry out: “ My God, why have you forsaken me?” Matt. 27:46.
  27. Since Jesus “learned obedience” who was he obedient to? How could God learn anything? Heb. 5:8.
  28. The ransom price was one perfect human for another. An imperfect man was too low. Ps. 49:7. If Jesus was God the price was too high.
Pretty cool huh?
It’s 1 am for crying out loud! Good night people! God bless.
 
From the discussion above, I ahve learnt that:
  1. JW’s do not believe that Jesus is God.
  2. They do not believe in Trinity? (?)
  3. They do not honor cross.
So far so good. Cross did not belong to Jesus. It belonged to Romans and it was imposed on Jesus.It was an instrument of punishment for Jesus. I cannot happily respect the cross in my heart.

If my above assessment of 3 JW beliefs is wrong, they may please tell me. Thanks.
 
Jesus didn’t say he was God in John 10:30. He said they were “one.”
Absolutely. The Father and the Son are united in the loving embrace of the Spirit. We cannot, therefore, divide the essential unity of the Trinity when we distinguish between the three Divine Persons. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God. The original Greek reads:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Emphasis mine to show you the text uses the term LOGOS for what we translate as “Word”. The Gospel of John identifies Jesus as the incarnation of the Logos, through which all things are made. The Gospel further identifies the Logos as divine (theos). This is not disputed, this is solid fact!

Of course the NWT has

“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” which is unique to NWT…No other translation has this rendering!

John traces the origin of the Word into eternity past, where God the Son was present with God the Father before time itself began (cf. Jn 17:15). This is a direct allusion to the opening verse of the Bible. It is implied that the universe, once created through the Word of God, is now being renewed through that same Word come in the flesh as Jesus Christ. 1:14 asserts the mystery of the Incarnation. It means that Christ, who is fully divine, eternal, and equal in being to the Father, came from heaven to earth and entered history as a man. The word “flesh” signifies all that is natural, earthly and human.
He repeated this in John 17:21, comparing it to how his diciples would be “one.” Not the same person: United
In one being with the Father, you’re right, not the same person, a separate person, but the same substance (Οὐσία).

17:21 is the high priestly prayer, right? Jesus is praying and what He prays for is unity. One of the five marks of the true Church. “that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they may also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” Without reaching for any books or anything, this clearly is an allusion to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
QUOTE=dj dave;5852171]

Hi, if I may… here is a scriptual reason we visit people in our door to door ministry.

“(Proverbs 9:9-11) 9**Give to a wise person and he will become still wiser. Impart knowledge to someone righteous and he will increase in learning. 10 The fear of Jehovah is the start of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Most Holy One is what understanding is. 11 For by me your days will become many, and to you years of life will be added”.*

aAs for the “Michael” thing this may interest you.

Spare me, Dave. You do it because you are required to do it. It is you who lacks understanding. You’ve been told a lie, and you believe the lie.

And, I’m really not interested in some logical fallacy about St. Michael.

I’m sure you are a very nice person, though.
 
Absolutely. The Father and the Son are united in the loving embrace of the Spirit. We cannot, therefore, divide the essential unity of the Trinity when we distinguish between the three Divine Persons. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God. The original Greek reads:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Emphasis mine to show you the text uses the term LOGOS for what we translate as “Word”. The Gospel of John identifies Jesus as the incarnation of the Logos, through which all things are made. The Gospel further identifies the Logos as divine (theos). This is not disputed, this is solid fact!

God the Son? --NOT in the bible.

Of course the NWT has

“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” which is unique to NWT…No other translation has this rendering!

Hmmmm…notice this

The following is a list of variant translations of John 1:1:
Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott, “In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.”
Recovery Version, Living Streams Ministry, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. The New Testament, collated with the most approved manuscripts; with select notes in English, critical and explanatory, and references to those authors who have best illustrated the sacred writings. To which are added, a Catalogue of the principal Editions of the Greek Testament; and a List of the most esteemed Commentators and critics. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768,
“and was himself a divine person”
Newcome, 1808, “and the word was a god”
Crellius,as quoted in The New Testament in an Improved Version “the Word was God’s”
La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel,1928: “and the Word was a divine being.”
John Samuel Thompson, The Montessoran; or The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, Baltimore; published by the translator, 1829, "the Logos was a god
Goodspeed’s An American Translation, 1939, “the Word was divine
Revised Version-Improved and Corrected, “the word was a god.”
Prof. Felix Just, S.J. - Loyola Marymount University, “and god-ly/-like] was the Word.”
Concordant Version (Knoch) “God was the Word”
C.C. Torrey, The Four Gospels, Second Edition, 1947, “the Word was god
New English Bible, 1961, “what God was,the Word was”
Moffatt’s The Bible, 1972, “the Logos was divine”
International English Bible-Extreme New Testament, 2001, “the Word was God*[ftn. or Deity, Divine, which is a better translation, because the Greek definite article is not present before this Greek word]
Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. -The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from the Greek, 1694, “and the Word was a god”
The NET Bible, “and the Word was fully God.”
Simple English Bible, “and the Message was Deity”
Hermann Heinfetter, A Literal Translation of the New Testament,1863, [A]s a god the Command was”
Abner Kneeland-The New Testament in Greek and English, 1822, “The Word was a God”
Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885,
“[A]nd a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word”
Belsham N.T. 1809 “the Word was a god”
Leicester Ambrose, The Final Theology, Volume 1, New York, New York; M.B. Sawyer
and Company, 1879, “And the logos was a god”
Charles A.L. Totten, The Gospel of History, 1900, “the Word was Deistic =The Word was Godly]
J.N. Jannaris, Zeitschrift fur die Newtestameutlich Wissencraft, (German periodical) 1901, [A]nd was a god”
International Bible Translators N.T. 1981
“In the beginning there was the Message. The Message was with God.
The Message was deity.”
CEV, “the Word was truly God.”
Samuel Clarke, M.A., D.D., rector of St. James, Westminster, A Paraphrase on the Gospel of John, London
“[A] Divine Person.”
Joseph Priestley, LL.D., F.R.S. (in A Familiar Illustration of Certain Passages of Scripture Relating to The Power of Man to do the Will of God, Original Sin, Election and Reprobation, The Divinity of Christ; And, Atonement for Sin by the Death of Christ [Philadelphia: Thomas Dobson, 1794], 37). “a God”
Lant Carpenter, LL.D (in Unitarianism in the Gospels [London: C. Stower, 1809], 156). “a God”
Andrews Norton, D.D. (in A Statement of Reasons For Not Believing the Doctrines of Trinitarians [Cambridge: Brown, Shattuck, and Company, 1833], 74). “a god”
Paul Wernle, Professor Extraordinary of Modern Church History at the University of Basil (in The Beginnings of Christianity, vol. 1, The Rise of Religion [1903], 16). “a God”
“At the beginning of Creation, there dwelt with God a mighty spirit, the Marshal, who produced all things in their order.” 21st Century NT Free
“and the [Marshal] [Word] was a god.” 21st Century Literal
George William Horner, The Coptic Version of the New Testament, 1911, [A]nd (a) God was the word”
Ernest Findlay Scott, The Literature of the New Testament, New York, Columbia University Press, 1932, “[A]nd the Word was of divine nature”
James L. Tomanec, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958, [T]he Word was a God”

continued…
 
FightingFat;5852950 said:
Absolutely. The Father and the Son are united in the loving embrace of the Spirit. We cannot, therefore, divide the essential unity of the Trinity when we distinguish between the three Divine Persons. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God. The original Greek reads:
, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Emphasis mine to show you the text uses the term LOGOS for what we translate as “Word”. The Gospel of John identifies Jesus as the incarnation of the Logos, through which all things are made. The Gospel further identifies the Logos as divine (theos). This is not disputed, this is solid fact!

God the Son? --NOT in the bible.

Of course the NWT has

“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” which is unique to NWT…No other translation has this rendering!

We DO believe Jesus was Divine. Notice:

At Colossians 2:9 the apostle Paul says that in Christ “all the fullness of the divine quality [form of the•o′tes] dwells bodily.” Here, again, some translations read “Godhead” or “deity,” which Trinitarians interpret to mean that God personally dwells in Christ. (KJ, NE, RS, NAB) However, Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon defines the•o′tes in basically the same way it does thei•o′tes, as meaning “divinity, divine nature.” (P. 792) The Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate render this word as “divinity.”

Thus, here too, there is a solid basis for rendering thei•o′tes as referring to quality, not personality.

A consideration of the context of Colossians 2:9 clearly shows that having “divinity,” or “divine nature,” does not make Christ the same as God the Almighty. In the preceding chapter, Paul says: “God saw good for all fullness to dwell in him.” (Col 1:19) Thus, all fullness dwells in Christ because it “pleased the Father” (KJ, Dy), because it was “by God’s own choice.” (NE) So the fullness of “divinity” that dwells in Christ is his as a result of a decision made by the Father. Further showing that having such “fullness” does not make Christ the same person as Almighty God is the fact that Paul later speaks of Christ as being “seated at the right hand of God.”—Col 3:1.

Considering the immediate context of Colossians 2:9, it is noted that in verse 8, Christians are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human tradition. They are also told that “carefully concealed in [Christ] are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge,” and they are urged to “go on walking in union with him, rooted and being built up in him and being stabilized in the faith.” (Col 2:3, 6, 7) I

n addition, verses 13 to 15 explain that they are made alive through faith, being released from the Law covenant. Paul’s argument, therefore, is that Christians do not need the Law (which was removed by means of Christ) or human philosophy and tradition. They have all they need, a precious “fullness,” in Christ.—Col 2:10-12.

Finally, at 2 Peter 1:3, 4 the apostle shows that by virtue of “the precious and very grand promises” extended to faithful anointed Christians, they “may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures, Christians are referred to as ‘sharing’ with Christ in his sufferings, in a death like his, and in a resurrection like his to immortality as spirit creatures, becoming joint heirs with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (1Co 15:50-54; Php 3:10, 11; 1Pe 5:1; 2Pe 1:2-4; Re 20:6) Thus it is evident that the sharing of Christians in “divine nature” is a sharing with Christ in his glory.
 
It was 2 Corinth 4:4 . Sorry. (I must sleep soon.)
🙂 No probs

NWT= “among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”

RSV=“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.”

This says that Satan is the god of this world; the unseen spirit who deceives men, hardens their hearts, and blinds them to the saving news of the gospel (1 Jn 5:19; Rev 20:2-3). Although defeated by Christ on the Cross (Heb 2:14), he still operates in the present age before his final demise at the end of time (Mt 25:41; Rev 20:10).
yeh but they got well influenced by them. In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: “We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy ... The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.”
Ooo that’s an interesting statement. I might begin by saying that Mr. Norton is clearly wrong, but if you disagree, please do explain the Platonic roots of Trinity! I’d love to hear that!
  1. Why is he called the “firstborn” of all creation? Col 1:15.
The theme here is the role of Christ in creation which alludes to the wisdom motifs in the OT; in Prov 3:19 wisdom is described as an agent in creation; in Prov 8:22-31, wisdom, created first, is a partner in the work of YHWH (cf Wisdom 7:22; 9:2-4).
  1. Why did he say he did not come of his “own initiative” but was sent? John 8:42, 1 John 4:9.
Yes indeed, the Father sends the Son and the Spirit proceeds from the Son. How does this affect His unity in being with the Father? The whole mission is one of obedience to the will of the Father to undo the disobedience of Adam. It is through His acceptance of the Father’s will Jesus shows us how to find perfection in our humanity; He shows us that we are unable to control our destiny and so must accept what comes, whether we want to or not. The way in which we accept these things and stay true to what we believe is what matures the vintage of our faith. The story of Adam and Eve teaches us that Adam chose trust in self rather than trust in God and that resulted in death because there is nothing, no life, outside of God—there is only death. Therefore, the way in which we defeat death is through fidelity to God, through faith; simply because it is in this that all our false pretensions to ‘immortality’ are unmasked. Faith presents us with the truth about ourselves and we can recognize how we are truly held in existence by nothing more than God’s will. In order to attain communion with God again, it becomes necessary for One to cross the threshold of death, One who is utterly pure and therefore has nothing to fear from death’s confrontation with reality. Jesus is the One who trusts God this way, He trusts God to death, He can truly obey his Father with all his heart and soul and therefore this is why he is the perfect ‘trailblazer’; he is the one who successfully goes through death into everlasting life and thus becomes the way for us. The value as redemption, reparation, atonement and satisfaction, which is conferred on Christ’s sacrifice, is because of His “love to the end”

“The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.” CCC 616

The New Testament makes clear and vigorous allusion to Christ’s death as a true sacrifice, “a supreme act of worship to be rendered to God alone.”
  1. Why did Jesus not know the “day and the hour” of the Great tribulation but God did? Matt 24:36.
Because His divine nature was hidden behind His human nature. Jesus is the God-man and has two natures, a human nature and a divine nature. While He is human, His divine glory is shielded.
  1. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer?
God the Father. Why is this confusing? They are not the same person.
 
  1. How did he “appear before the person of God for us? Heb 9:24.
This is an allusion to the ritual of Atonement when the High priest entered the Holy of Holies; the presence of God. Jesus is truly our

The Letter to the Hebrews makes a lengthy comparison between this sacrifice, where the high priest enters the holy of holies to sprinkle the blood of sacrificial victims on the Propitiatory, set upon the Ark of the Covenant (cf. Heb 9:1-7), and the death of Christ and His entry into the true sanctuary, which is the presence of God. The same sacrifice is referred to by St. John, when he speaks of Jesus as “the expiation for our sins” (1 Jn 2:2) and that “God sent his Son to be the expiation of our sins” (1 Jn 4:10) as well as “the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin” (1 Jn 1:7). Another reference can be found in Romans 3:23-25, which is clear in its allusion to God as the subject, who makes Christ a sacrifice of propitiation. It is through this sacrifice that God destroys sin and thus manifests His salvific justice.

If we turn to the Catechism, we can see that the Day of Atonement was a necessary part of the Jewish year because they

“…were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts.” (CCC 578)

The Old Covenant was conditional, and it relied on humanity’s faithful observance of the Law. The Old Testament illustrates that Israel was aware of this breach and finds dramatic expression in the broken tablets at the foot of Mount Sinai. When these tablets were lost after the Exile it was obvious that this was a permanent condition; Israel could not restore the tablets, but neither could God withdraw His love. Indeed the promise of renewal; of the New Covenant was already present in the Old Covenant (in a kairological sense). Jesus is the Word made flesh; “the Law has become a person” and the will of God is revealed to all nations and it is the transgression of this will that is the basic evil from which Christ delivers us.

I’m gonna have to do the rest later!
 
Spare me, Dave. You do it because you are required to do it. It is you who lacks understanding. You’ve been told a lie, and you believe the lie.
I’m sure you are a very nice person, though.
[/QUOT

Here is just one quote from one of 20,000 articles regarding our “required to do it”
mind set

*** tp chap. 15 pp. 169-172 Why Care About Other People? ***
Loving Concern for the Eternal Welfare of Others

Paragraph # …17 Our concern for others should not be limited to their physical needs. Nor would our love be complete simply because we were kind to all sorts of people. For life to have real meaning, people need to know Jehovah and his purposes. In prayer to his Father, Jesus said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) If you have read this book from the beginning, you know how to gain that prize. You have seen for yourself what the Scriptures foretell about the “great tribulation,” and the physical evidences that confirm its nearness.

You know that God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. But does love for Jehovah and for your fellowman move you to share this vital knowledge with others?

18 When speaking of “the conclusion of the system of things,” Jesus foretold: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:3, 14)

What a privilege it is to represent the Sovereign Ruler of the universe, Jehovah himself, as one shares in this “witness”! Opportunity to take part in this special work is still open, but not for much longer.

19 When considering the prospect of sharing in this “witness to all the nations,” it is good to realize that it is, not one’s personal ability, but God who causes the message to produce results. (Acts 16:14; 1 Corinthians 3:6) If you are moved by a willing heart, Jehovah can use you to accomplish his will. As the apostle Paul said: “Now through the Christ we have this sort of confidence toward God. Not that we of ourselves are adequately qualified to reckon anything as issuing from ourselves, but our being adequately qualified issues from God.”—2 Corinthians 3:4-6.

20 We should not expect, of course, that everyone will respond favorably. Many will be indifferent. Some will oppose. Yet they can change. Saul of Tarsus, who was once a persecutor of Christians, became a zealous apostle of Jesus. (1 Timothy 1:12,*13) Whether others know it or not, they need the Kingdom message.

So we need to be concerned about them, willing to expend ourselves to further their lasting welfare. (1Thessalonians 2:7,8) Even if they do not want the Kingdom message, good is still accomplished. The witness is given, Jehovah’s name is magnified…

We truly do “love our neighbor” and belive that telling and teaching them about God’s Kingdom" (Dan 2:44) is the best way to help those “Conscience of their Spiritual need”
as well as warn them Luke 17:26-30 and 2 Thess 1:6-12

Are we false Prophets? Do not be a victim of Proverbs 18:13

*When anyone is replying to a matter before he hears [it], that is foolishness on his part and a humiliation. …get the whole story.

users.picknowl.com.au/~hepburn/prophecy.htm#INTRO#INTRO

jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html
 
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