JW stopped by my house......

[PAboy57]

ACT OF FAITH
O my God, who are infallible Truth and can neither deceive nor be deceived, I firmly believe all that you have revealed and propose to my belief though your holy Church, because you have revealed it. I believe that you are one in nature and three in Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that you are the Creator of all things and that you reward the just for all eternity in heaven and punish the wicked for all eternity in hell. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God made man, that he suffered and died for my sins and rose from the dead in glory, and that it is only in him through the Holy Spirit that eternal life is given to us . I believe in all that your holy Church believes. I thank you for having called me to the true faith, and I propose that with the help of your grace I will live and die in this holy faith. Amen.

 

[dj_dave]

Joe Brown

In all charity, the Watchtower’s idea that all but the 144,000 will live in paradise apart from God for all eternity amounts to a promise of an eternal petting zoo instead of the Beatific Vision. You must reawaken in them the desire for the union with God promised to all in Christ Jesus.

HERE IS A QUESTION. Why did Jehovah give the Revelation in symbols? Rev 1:1

Answer: He knew that you NEED to understand the rest of the Bible before you can understand the Revelation. And you cannot fully understand the Bible without the Revelation.

These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.”—Revelation 14:4.

Who are the 144,000 YOU ASK?

Consider some of the hints given in the wonderful mystery. (Rev 1 :1)

(Revelation 14:1-5) …And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

WHERE? (Mt Zion Heb 12:22 (–But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,)

) …And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.
Bought how? 1 Cor 6:20 “for YOU were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in the body of YOU people.” by Jesus’ blood

VS 4. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins

Why would it say “defile themselves with women?” being with a woman is not defiling oneself

Are they literal virgins?.Remember what paul said "(2 Corinthians 11:2)

For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a *chaste virgin *to the Christ.

(Women in this case would be false idols) how do we know?

‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1,3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Ga 3:28)

WE BELIEVEThe “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5, 18:16,22,23) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.

*These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. *

Remember the covenant Jesus made with his disciples? (Luke 22:28, 29)

28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29*and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,

These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(James 1:18) Because he willed it, he brought us forth by the word of truth, for us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures. Compare Heb 3:1 “Heavenly calling”

5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

(Ephesians 5:27) that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Are the corresponding scriptures all just a coincidence? We don’t think so…the 144,000 are the members making up the “heavenly calling” Heb 3:1 the “Little Flock” (Luke 12:32)

32*“*Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom. *

Now, Who are the 24 elders?

 

[dj_dave]

dj dave

Now, Who are the 24 elders?

…

Remember, you must have the Bible to interpret the symblols in the Book of Revelation
Notice how we do that:

Who are the 24 elders? Revelation 4:4 Consider:

John knew that priests were appointed to serve in the ancient tabernacle. So he may have been surprised at seeing …: “And round about the throne there are twenty-four thrones, and upon these thrones I saw seated twenty-four elders dressed in white outer garments, and upon their heads golden crowns.” (Revelation 4:4) Yes, instead of priests, there are 24elders, enthroned and crowned like kings. Who are these elders? They are none other than anointed ones of the Christian congregation, (The 144,000) resurrected and occupying the heavenly position Jehovah promised them. How do we know that?

First of all, they are wearing crowns. The Bible speaks of anointed Christians as gaining ‘an incorruptible crown’ and attaining to an endless life—immortality. (1 Corinthians 9:25; 15:53, 54) But since these 24 elders are sitting on thrones, the golden crowns in this context represent royal authority. (Compare Revelation 6:2; 14:14.)

Also, did you notice they are playing harps?Thus they resemble the 144,000 of the holy “Israel of God,” (spoken of in my Post just before this one)…who also carry harps and sing a new song. (Galatians 6:16; Colossians 1:12; Revelation 7:3-8; 14:1-4)

This supports the conclusion that the 24 elders **portray **Jesus’ anointed footstep followers in their (future) heavenly position, for Jesus made a covenant with them to sit on thrones in his Kingdom. (Luke 22:28-30) Only Jesus and these 24 elders—not even the angels—are described as ruling in heaven in Jehovah’s presence.

This harmonizes with the promise that Jesus made to the Laodicean congregation: “To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne.” (Revelation 3:21) But the heavenly assignment of the 24 elders is not limited to governmental rule. In the introduction to the book of Revelation, John said of Jesus: “He made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father.” (Revelation 1:5, 6)

These ones are both kings and priests. “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”—Revelation 20:6.

What is significant about the number 24, in that John sees 24 elders around the throne?

In many respects, these were foreshadowed by the faithful priests of ancient Israel. The apostle Peter wrote to anointed Christians: “You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.’” (1 Peter 2:9) Interestingly, that ancient Jewish priesthood came to be divided into 24 divisions.

Each division was assigned its own weeks in the year to serve before Jehovah, so that sacred service was rendered without a break. (1 Chronicles 24:5-19) It is fitting, then, that there are 24 elders depicted in John’s vision of the heavenly priesthood because this priesthood serves Jehovah continually, without ceasing.

When completed, there will be 24 divisions, each with 6,000 conquerors, for Revelation 14:1-4 tells us that 144,000 (24 x 6,000) are “bought from among mankind” to stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Since the number 12 signifies a divinely balanced organization, 24 doubles—or strengthens—such an arrangement.

Now back to the original question: Why did Jehovah give the Revelation in symbols?

He wants to see whos heart is really seeking his treasures where our TRUE motives are. Compare Prov 2:1-6 with Ps 40:8 and Philp 1:9; Col 1:9,10 Remember Luke 10:21

 

[dj_dave]

Oh I most certainly recommend it as an Apologetic strategy. The Disciples were first called Christians in Antioch so the name JW is nowhere to be found in the NT. If that is God’s Divine name for his people under the New covenant, why would God wait almost 2,000 years to suddenly start using the JW name? Doesn’t this mean that 1st century Christians were not know as JW?

Why are JW’s called JW’s and not Christians? since Jw appeal to Isaiah 43:12, 44:8 for Scriptural support that they should be called this, then what was the new name prophesized in Isa 62:2? Can’t be JW, for God already used it 20 chapters earlier.

Acts 15:14; Rev 1:5

 

[dj_dave]

OneTrueCathApos;
If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many “Witnesses” left the faith afterward?

I just answered that.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5860073&postcount=90

 

[Regardless]

Remember, there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. The Catholic church. There are 30,000 denominations out there and sorry, you are one of them. The Catholic church is universal, mentioned 2,000 years ago. also remember that ALL the other off-shoots are man-made except for the Catholic church…unless you call Jesus the Man.

We agree there is only one true religion Jesus started. (Ephesians 4:5)

Though quickly after the death of the Apostles different factions started developing. Even while the Apostles were still alive different sects were developing.So obviously lots of different variations of belief.

It was prophesied by Jesus and his Apostles that after they went there would be an apostasy (leaving of true worship) . The Roman empire couldn’t accept this radical new religion (Christianity) and persecuted it fiercely several times.
yet then in the 4th century suddenly adopted it and merged lots of customs and festivals.

How are you so sure the Catholic Church was the true faction?
(especially when we read encyclopedias and Catholics admit core beliefs weren’t finalised untill hundreds of years later.)
Do you at least understand our reasoning and concern?

 

[planten]

We agree there is only one true religion Jesus started. (Ephesians 4:5)

Though quickly after the death of the Apostles different factions started developing. Even while the Apostles were still alive different sects were developing.So obviously lots of different variations of belief.

It was prophesied by Jesus and his Apostles that after they went there would be an apostasy (leaving of true worship) . The Roman empire couldn’t accept this radical new religion (Christianity) and persecuted it fiercely several times.
yet then in the 4th century suddenly adopted it and merged lots of customs and festivals.

How are you so sure the Catholic Church was the true faction?
(especially when we read encyclopedias and Catholics admit core beliefs weren’t finalised untill hundreds of years later.)
Do you at least understand our reasoning and concern?

I admired the good behaviour and peaceful attitude of JW’s. Also their critical (intence) study of the bible. That goes in their favor. Also they have some organisation and they believe in peaceful preaching. What could be better !!

 

[dj_dave]

The 144,000?

As to the question of those left on earth, Jesus never speaks of having two flocks, an earthly and heavenly class of followers. Jesus has one bride, and she is not divided into two camps. Those with their name in the book of life enter the New Jerusalem (Rv 21:27) and those whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire (Rv 20:15). This does not leave room for a middle class. All of God’s people are together in the New Jerusalem, not part here and part there.

 

[Regardless]

I admired the good behaviour and peaceful attitude of JW’s. Also their critical (intence) study of the bible. That goes in their favor. Also they have some organisation and they believe in peaceful preaching. What could be better !!

Thank you friend. And you were right in your analysis in post 33.
You should ask the Witnesses for a free home Bible study next time they call. There might be other things you agree with in our understanding of the Bible.

I met alot of Muslims in England. I found them all very sincere people and respectful people.

Where are you in the world?

 

[yellowbird]

You make a fair point.

Yet the witnesses don’t claim to be prophets, so they can hardly be false ones.

”

Actually they have claimed to be prophets - several times. If you do a google search of “Did Jehvoah’s Witnesses claim to be prophets” you can actually read copies of the actual Watchtower magazines where it’s right there in black in white. One article was entitled, “A Prophet Among Us” and it clearly states JW are modern day prophets for Jehvoah. Also, during a trial the President of the WTS, when asked who authored the literature produced by the Watchtower Society his response was, “Jehovah Himself.” It’s all there on the internet…

So ummm… yeah. All those claims of this and that will happen prior to this year or most definitely by this date… or this generation will NOT pass away… millions living will NOT die… or my personal favorite… the one where some men from the Old Test. will be ressurected and move into a really ritzy house in California… all those prophecies? They didn’t happen which = False Prophets. That’s not my opinion… it’s Jehovah’s, recorded right there in the book of Deut.

See, you can’t claim to be a prophet and then when ALL your prophecies fail insist you aren’t a prophet. Who’d fall for that?

 

[yellowbird]

You make a fair point.

Yet the witnesses don’t claim to be prophets, so they can hardly be false ones.

Straight from the Watchtower - claiming that Jehovah puts words into their mouths… if that isn’t a prophet, I don’t know what is?

“Who will be Jehovah’s prophet to the nations, to speak to them everything that He should command? Who will be the modern Jeremiah? Jeremiah prophesied forty years in the time of the end of the kingdom of Judah. So who will prophesy with his message in the time of the end of the nations of this world? … Whom has God actually used as his prophet? By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them… It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths …” (“Watchtower”, Jan 15, 1959 Pages 40-41)

 

[Joe_Brown]

Straight from the Watchtower - claiming that Jehovah puts words into their mouths… if that isn’t a prophet, I don’t know what is?

*“Who will be Jehovah’s prophet to the nations, to speak to them everything that He should command? Who will be the modern Jeremiah? Jeremiah prophesied forty years in the time of the end of the kingdom of Judah. So who will prophesy with his message in the time of the end of the nations of this world? … Whom has God actually used as his prophet? By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them… It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths …” *(“Watchtower”, Jan 15, 1959 Pages 40-41)

:manvspc::clapping:

 

[dj_dave]

QUOTE=yellowbird;5864147]Actually they have claimed to be prophets - several times. If you do a google search of “Did Jehvoah’s Witnesses claim to be prophets” you can actually read copies of the actual Watchtower magazines where it’s right there in black in white. One article was entitled, “A Prophet Among Us” and it clearly states JW are modern day prophets for Jehvoah. Also, during a trial the President of the WTS, when asked who authored the literature produced by the Watchtower Society his response was, “Jehovah Himself.” It’s all there on the internet…

Here ARE the actual articles (Proverbs 18:13)

users.picknowl.com.au/~hepburn/prophecy.htm#INTRO#INTRO

So ummm… yeah. All those claims of this and that will happen prior to this year or most definitely by this date… or this generation will NOT pass away… millions living will NOT die. (THE ACTUAL TITLE of the talk Yellowbird, was "Millions Now Living May Never Die").

…Also, that talk was last given in 1926, therefore and there are still millions that are still alive: So you can’t really say that the talk was wrong. But, we are getting close

"Among the older population, those
85 years and over showed the
highest percentage increase.
In 2000, there were 18.4 million people
ages 65 to 74 years old, representing
53 percent of the older population"—U.S. Department of Commerce
Economics and Statistics Administration
U.S. CENSUS BUREAU

Also, with regard to "“A Prophet Among Us” you neglected to mention that we explained what a prophet was --again go to users.picknowl.com.au/~hepburn/prophecy.htm#APROPH#APROPH

and get the real story! it includes the articles “WHAT IS A PROPHET?” and “A PROPHET IS AMONG US” and "1874 1914 1925 1975 "

 

[dj_dave]

Straight from the Watchtower - claiming that Jehovah puts words into their mouths… if that isn’t a prophet, I don’t know what is?

*“Who will be Jehovah’s prophet to the nations, to speak to them everything that He should command? Who will be the modern Jeremiah? Jeremiah prophesied forty years in the time of the end of the kingdom of Judah. So who will prophesy with his message in the time of the end of the nations of this world? … Whom has God actually used as his prophet? By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them… It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths …” *(“Watchtower”, Jan 15, 1959 Pages 40-41)

UOTE]

Straight from the Watchtower - claiming that Jehovah puts words into their mouths… if that isn’t a prophet, I don’t know what is?

There is much more to that article Yellowbird. Here is some more of that article notice what we REALLY mean by “prophet”

*** w59 1/15 p. 41 par. 14 Down with the Old—Up with the New! ***
Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. All the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries and islands of the sea they confess has been, not by help of a military army, nor by human power, but by God’s spirit, his invisible active force. (Zech. 4:6, AV) It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths. It has evidently been because he commissioned them to be over the nations and over the kingdoms. Happy are all those who have seen what the work of Jehovah God for now is and who have volunteered to do it.

*** w59 1/15 p. 41 par. 17 Down with the Old—Up with the New! ***
That is the work that Jehovah’s witnesses have been doing during these past forty years. In all that work they have not meddled in politics, subverted any governments or raised a violent hand against any of the institutions or political structures of any nation of the world. How, then, have they fulfilled Jehovah’s commission to them? Our guide to the right answer is found in the answer to the question, **How did our pattern, Jeremiah, fulfill his commission to do such things? He did this by declaring the judgments, the judicial decisions and the purposes of Jehovah God, which, when pronounced over Jehovah’s own name, are as good as accomplished. **Thus he “calls the things that are not as though they were.” (Rom. 4:17) Not one of his judgments and purposes has gone unfulfilled.

ALSO THIS:

*** w59 1/15 p. 41 par. 15 Down with the Old—Up with the New! ***
]Individuals have **not been foreordained **for God’s work, as in Jeremiah’s case.

The work was the thing foreordained. Christendom may fail to do the foreordained work, but it will be done just the same. We must harmonize with the work, not decide for ourselves what God’s work should be at this time and then ask his divine blessing on what we decide. This latter course is one of lawlessness against God, no matter how loudly and insistently one claims to be a Christian. God offers the foreordained work to Christians, as these claim to have given themselves to him through Christ to do the divine will. Thus God lets Christians live up to their claims, if they want to, by accepting the work he foreordained for Christians in this day. Regardless of the names of the individuals, a remnant of consecrated, anointed witnesses of Jehovah rejoiced to be freed from their captivity during World War I and to carry out their dedication to God by taking up the foreordained work. Hundreds of thousands have since seen the opportunities of the work and have joyfully joined the anointed Jeremiah class in doing the work.

Quite different than an actual Bible Prophet.

 

[yellowbird]

You claim the word “prophet” means someone who will do Jehovah’s preaching work… regardless, your message has a track record of being 100% WRONG. Obviously it is NOT a message Jehovah put on your lips… all those claims of the Society being Jehovah’s spokesman on earth… the organization HE chose to carry out work… ? You’d think if he CHOOSE you, he’d make sure you were saying the correct things? Why choose a group of people and then sit back for over 100 years and allow them to preach a false message in your name? Seriously… does that even make sense to you??

 

[yellowbird]

. All the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries and islands of the sea they confess has been, not by help of a military army, nor by human power, but by God’s spirit, his invisible active force.

 

[mangy_dog]

…,so they sacrificed themselves for the love and obedience to God, Compare Rev 2:10,

Do you love your wife (husband) enough that you would be willing to risk your life for her (him)? ... There are also men who risk their lives for their country, and they are viewed as heroes, aren’t they?Compare (Luke 4:5-8; 1 John 5:19 and the future REV 19:17-18)

But there is someone who is greater than any person or thing here on earth, and that is God. Would you risk your life because of love for him and loyalty to his rulership?’ (2)*‘The issue here really is loyalty to God. It is God’s Word that tells us to abstain from blood. (Acts 15:28, 29)’ ) (Leviticus 17:10-11)…really, suppose it said to “abstain from alcohol”

would there be any reason to take it into your body?

Oh but “cow blood” products is ok huh?

Check the latest updates of the JW blood policy… you may find that what’s good for the gooose is not good for the gander.

 

[Ceil-1]

Jesus, whose word trumps all, said there is nothing unclean that goes into the mouth. Only out. The old covenant laws are no longer in effect. (Except the moral laws such as do not kill, and, do not commit adultery).

So, the JW’s ever-changing policies on blood products is an unecessary (and dangerous) burden on their members.

 

[dj_dave]

If God directed you to say that generation would not pass away, it wouldn’t have.

The generation has not passed away.

We do believe we are doing the work God foretold and that we are the only TRUE religion–otherwise we would look for another one. But, we never claimed to be* inspired*–YOU are saying that that is what the expressions (His words on your lips!!!) mean. YOU are wrong. Did you read the link I sent?

With regard to 1914: : “*We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises . . . We do not even claim that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them” *

Presence October 1879 page 38
"We do not object to *changing our opinions *on any subject, or discarding former application of prophecy, or any other scripture, when we see a good reason for the change,- in fact, it is important that we should be willing to unlearn errors and mere traditions, as to learn truth…. It is our duty to “prove all things”- by the unerring Word,- ‘and hold fast to what is good.’ " (italics original)

 

[dj_dave]

Jesus, whose word trumps all, said there is nothing unclean that goes into the mouth. Only out. The old covenant laws are no longer in effect. (Except the moral laws such as do not kill, and, do not commit adultery).

So, the JW’s ever-changing policies on blood products is an unecessary (and dangerous) burden on their members.

*** g 8/06 pp. 5-9 Transfusion Medicine—Is Its Future Secure? ***

Transfusion Medicine—Is Its Future Secure?

“Transfusion medicine will continue to be a little like walking through a tropical rainforest, where the known paths are clear but still require careful navigation, and new and unseen threats may still lurk around the next corner to trap the unwary.”—Ian M. Franklin, professor of transfusion medicine.
AFTER the worldwide AIDS epidemic cast the spotlight on blood in the 1980’s, efforts to eliminate its “unseen threats” intensified. Still, huge obstacles remain. In June 2005, the World Health Organization acknowledged: “The chance of receiving a safe transfusion . . . varies enormously from one country to another.” Why?

In many lands there are no nationally coordinated programs to ensure safety standards for the collection, testing, and transport of blood and blood products. Sometimes blood supplies are even stored dangerously—in poorly maintained domestic refrigerators and picnic boxes! Without safety standards in place, patients can be adversely affected by the blood drawn from someone who lives hundreds—if not thousands—of miles away.

Disease-Free Blood—A Moving Target

Some countries claim that their blood supply has never been safer. Yet, there are still reasons for caution. A “Circular of Information” prepared jointly by three U.S. blood agencies states on its first page: “WARNING: Because whole blood and blood components are made from human blood, they may carry a risk of transmitting infectious agents, eg, viruses. . . . Careful donor selection and available laboratory tests do not eliminate the hazard.”

Not without reason does Peter Carolan, the senior officer of the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, say: “Absolute guarantees on blood supplies can never be given.” He adds: “There will always be new infections for which at that moment there is no test.”
What if a new infectious agent were to appear—one that, like AIDS, remains in an undetectable carrier state for a long time and is readily transmitted by means of blood? Speaking at a medical conference in Prague, Czech Republic, in April 2005, Dr. Harvey G. Klein of the U.S. National Institutes of Health called that prospect sobering. He added: “The blood component collectors would be scarcely better prepared to interdict a transfusion-transmitted epidemic than they were during the early days of AIDS.”
Mistakes and Transfusion Reactions

What are the greatest transfusion-related threats to patients in developed countries? Errors and immunologic reactions. Regarding a 2001 Canadian study, the Globe and Mail newspaper reported that thousands of blood transfusions involved near-misses because of “collecting blood samples from the wrong patient, mislabelling samples and requesting blood for the wrong patient.” Such mistakes cost the lives of at least 441 people in the United States between 1995 and 2001.

Those who receive blood from another person face risks essentially similar to those undergoing an organ transplant. Immune responses tend to reject foreign tissue. In some cases, blood transfusions can actually prevent the activation of natural immune responses. Such immunosuppression leaves the patient vulnerable to postoperative infections and to viruses that had previously been inactive. It is no wonder that Professor Ian M. Franklin, quoted at the outset of this article, encourages clinicians to “think once, twice and three times before transfusing patients.”
Experts Speak Out
with blood

…cont