JW stumper

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Catholic_Diva

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Hi y’all,

I’m sure one of you lovely folks here can help me out on this one: I was dialoguing with my JW friend about the Trinity (exhaustive and more than just a little like this :banghead: Lol). I was doing ok I thought, with the Holy Spirit’s help, but then he brought up some scriptures where Jesus tells the people that the Father is greater than he is and no one is equal to the Father etc (like at the beginning of John’s Gospel when Jesus is explaining this to the pharisees). The subject may well come up again as we continue our weekly discussions and I want a clear answer in my head as to how this would not contradict the concept of the Trinity where all are equal but seperate.

All help very much appreciated as I often struggle with these attempts at apologetics! :confused:

Thank you in advance,

Diva
“Christ rox my sox!”
 
As I see it there is no point to argue each individual dogma. All one has to do is apologize the authority of the Church. Everything else hinges on that.

On another note, you could simply attack their beliefs, which is honking easy to do with JW’s, they are so stinking random.
 
Jesus Himself said " I and the Father are One" John 10:30
How can you refute that? You can’t. He is the Word Incarnate,
and True God and True Man. More proof of the Trinity:
John 1:1 Also, I like what is says at the end of Revelations,
and this is a fact Revelation:22: 18, 19 ( JW’s don’t take this into account as their Bible has been changed to suit their beliefs, and to back up their beliefs, but this scripture is powerful and it should not be overlooked) They changed John 1:1, and you know what Revelation says.
 
I have written the admin to correct the mistake of the “s”
on the Revelation. Please forgive me for putting an “s” on
it!
 
I have been told to look at places like Phil2:
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
I believe that debating the trinity doctrine is a hard one with the jw’s 😦

something like their birthday or christmas doctrine might be easier 😉

Evanescence
 
You have to realize that Christ is both completely human and completely God. There were times when he spoke from his human nature and times when he spoke as God. The statement your JW friend is quoting was Jesus speaking from his human nature. When he states that he and the Father are one, he is speaking with his authority as God. Other examples include:

“I hunger” Speaking as a human.

“I am the bread of life” Speaking as God.
 
Catholic Dude:
I have been told to look at places like Phil2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Click to expand...

Arguing as devil’s advocate, one could say that this passage is not a knock-down argument for the Deity of Christ - it is compatible with the JW position that Jesus is next after Jehovah in dignity, and is not Himself on a par with Jehovah.​

The only awkward phrase is “though he was in the form of God” - but even that is not an air-tight assertion of His Deity. Jesus could be a pre-existent creature, the Son of Man, “the man from Heaven”, higher than all other creatures, and be honoured by them - not for Himself, but so that Jehovah was being worshipped when His mighty acts in & through Jesus are acknowledged: IOW, Jesus would then have a position approximately equivalent to that of the BVM, but higher, though not strictly Divine.

Jesus would then be like Metatron in the Third Book of Enoch - a very interesting work, which unfortunately is not on the Net:

earlyjewishwritings.com/3enoch.html
 
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Evanescence:
I believe that debating the trinity doctrine is a hard one with the jw’s 😦

something like their birthday or christmas doctrine might be easier 😉

Evanescence
Click to expand...
According to the Round Table with JWs audio clip I listened to, birthdays aren’t celebrated because its “Creature worship”.

And I suppose the same would apply to Christmas…since they don’t believe Jesus to be GOD, they don’t need to celebrate his birthday? They believe him to be Michael the Archangel…
 
You know, even the JW rendering of scripture in the New World translation can still be used to discredit many of the JW teachings? 😃
 
Catholic Diva:
Hi y’all,

I’m sure one of you lovely folks here can help me out on this one: I was dialoguing with my JW friend about the Trinity (exhaustive and more than just a little like this :banghead: Lol). I was doing ok I thought, with the Holy Spirit’s help, but then he brought up some scriptures where Jesus tells the people that the Father is greater than he is and no one is equal to the Father etc (like at the beginning of John’s Gospel when Jesus is explaining this to the pharisees). The subject may well come up again as we continue our weekly discussions and I want a clear answer in my head as to how this would not contradict the concept of the Trinity where all are equal but seperate.

All help very much appreciated as I often struggle with these attempts at apologetics! :confused:

Thank you in advance,

Diva
“Christ rox my sox!”
Click to expand...
Diva,

I’d like to post on this later, if there’s anything I can add, but I like to think of the Bible as the best source of defense in regards to our Trinitarian belief. The verses the JW’s typically use are “ours” that help us understand aspects of the Godhead, It’s nature and operation.

So that’s probably not very helpful, but remember - verses they use are helpful in understanding the Trinity, and should not be used to destroy one’s Trinitarian understanding of God!!

If you are dealing semi-regularly with JW’s, I would highly recommending getting a copy of Jason Evert’s “Answering Jehovah Witnesses” I think I got mine from Catholic Answers. There’s other good books too, but that one I’ve read and he is very thorough and covers plenty of topics.
 
‘Jehovah’s Witnesses answered verse for verse’ is also a great read.
 
The JW logic only holds up if you forget that the trinity is 3 individuals, but one essence. Thus it is possible for one of the individuals, in this case the Son, to lower himself to something (a man capable of being tempted and killed) less than the other individuals with whom He shares an essence. This makes sense when you realise that one of the purposes of the incarnation was for Christ to demonstrate to man the best way to live. Since the best life for a man is one of submission to God, it was necessary that Jesus humble himself to the point where He could be in a position of submission to His Father and thus demonstrate to us His children what true submission to God looks like (i.e. always giving the glory to God, relying upon God for all things, spending much time in prayer etc…) Furthermore there is much mystery in the nature of the trinity and it is probably impossible for us to perfectly understand the complex relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit from this side of eternity 🙂
 
My argument is that Jesus, being both fully human and God, was speaking from his assumed human nature when he talked about the Father being greater than he.
 
Gottle of Geer-
Arguing as devil’s advocate, one could say that this passage is not a knock-down argument for the Deity of Christ - it is compatible with the JW position that Jesus is next after Jehovah in dignity, and is not Himself on a par with Jehovah.
Click to expand...
What would they say about:
the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The name above every name? What about Jehovah? What about people bowing, isnt Jehovah supposed to be bowed down to? Every thing in heaven? Earth? Under earth?
I guess v11 could be misused though as you show below.
The only awkward phrase is “though he was in the form of God” - but even that is not an air-tight assertion of His Deity. Jesus could be a pre-existent creature, the Son of Man, “the man from Heaven”, higher than all other creatures, and be honoured by them - not for Himself, but so that Jehovah was being worshipped when His mighty acts in & through Jesus are acknowledged: IOW, Jesus would then have a position approximately equivalent to that of the BVM, but higher, though not strictly Divine.
Click to expand...
Do you know what that passage is in greek? It would be interesting to know how that passage works out in greek.

So thats why every tongue would confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father?

What is a good proof text passage that they have a hard time with?
 
Catholic Dude:
Do you know what that passage is in greek? It would be interesting to know how that passage works out in greek.
Click to expand...
JW’s don’t care about the greek. That’s plain enough to see when you see what they have changed in the New World Translation.
 
Catholic Dude (from post #17) :

**The name above every name? What about Jehovah? **

The NWT apparantly gets around this difficulty by inserting the word “other” at Phillipians 2:9 as in:

For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name (Phillippians 2:9 NWT).

**…It would be interesting to know how that passage works out in greek. **

There is a discussion of Phillipians 2:5-11 (which includes a discussion of what is meant by “in the form of” (2:6) here:
biblecentre.net/comment/nt/giff/giff-Index.html

They’ve also freely used the bracketed [other] at Colossians 1:16-20 to harmonize with their belief system:

“…16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.” (Colossians 1:16-19 NWT)
 
Hi Diva the President of the US is greather than I authority wise, but we are both equal nature wise.

authority wise the father is above the son who is above the spirit, nature wise they are equal.
 
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