JW's and CHRIST'S RESURRECTION

[Yerusalyim]

BibleSteve,

You still did not answer the question, you talked circles around it. Jesus said if the temple were destroyed in three days he would rebuild it and was talking about the temple of his body. So, let’s replace the word “temple” with the word “body.”

“Destroy this BODYand in three days I will raise it THIS BODY]up.”
But he was speaking about the temple of his body.
Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they came to believe the scripture and the word Jesus had spoken. John 2:20,22

So, quite obviously, just would rebuild his body…it was a spiritual body in that his flesh was no longer corruptible, no longer subject to time or space, but just as obviously, physical.

You’re also mistaken in your assumption that Jesus gave up being spirit, Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. He had body, soul and spirit.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Read Eze 18:4 and Ecc 9:5, 10… then report back…

(Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

Read some more Scripture - try Revelation where the elders sit before God while the prayers of those on earth are offered to Him.

Try the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The Rich Man and Abraham are concious and discussing his brothers who are still on earth.

As for Ecclesiastes look at it in context.

 

[b_justb]

(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

What then do we do with ECCLESIASTES 12:7

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[excaliber]

Did you not know that Jesus and michael being the same is not taught by sacred scripture, but by Jw sacred tradition LOL (just jokeing)

But now seriously…Jw’s come to conclusions on scripture by mentaly reasoning in there minds as to what different scripture’s mean. That is why we do not teach that Christ brought his body to haven. Because it dose not logicly make sence that flesh and blood could enter heaven.
Did Jesus have a perfct spirit body that Could be brought to heaven?
Jw don’t know. How would we…we were not there?
Imortality of the soul…The Holy Trinity…and Christ having a phisical body don’t make sense to our limited mind, and THAT is why it is not taught.
Keep in mind those making decisions have NO degrees in any nationaly recognized schools of theology. Just simple human reasoning that is all.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

St. Paul certainly expected his SOUL to be alive with Christ after his physical death.

**From Philippians 1:20-24 **(New Revised Standard Version).
Note that Paul is talking about being torn between TWO
desires (( not three - the NWT bible mistranslates this so as
to make Paul say that what he really desires is the RELEASING
of Jesus at the 2nd coming, which would be a third thing,
but Paul is only talking about two things, as the context
makes unmistakably clear):
It is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be put to shame in any way, but that by my speaking with all boldness, Christ will be exalted now as always in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, living is Christ and dying is gain.
If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me; and I do not know WHICH I prefer. I am hard pressed between the TWO: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. (capitalizations mine for emphasis).

In other words, Paul wants to die and go into the presence of the Lord Jesus, but the Corinthians need him here on earth exhorting and teaching them. Nothing complicated about that.
There are several other scriptures which could be cited******, but the Society explains them away, preferring instead to focus on things like Ecclesiastes, which is written from a man writing from a fleshly and nihilistic point of view. The JWs simply misunderstand much of the bible, but have the Chutzpah to tell the Christian Church that it’s been wrong since 33 A.D.
The Jewish people know Ecclesiates up, down, sideways, and backwards. It’s part of their Hebrew bible and they study it.
The Jewish people also believe – correctly – that they have souls.
Even in Jesus’s day, the vast majority of Jews knew that they had souls. The ONLY Jews in Jesus’s day who denied the existence of the spiritual soul of man, were the Sadduccees.

**Hebrews 12:22-23 also strongly affirms that even in apostolic times, the New Jerusalem in heaven was already inhabited by the SPIRITS of RIGHTEOUS MEN who had been made perfect.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[inJESUS]

Now, there is an abundance of Scriptural testimony to the effect that, as the apostle Peter expresses it regarding Jesus, “he [was] put to death in the flesh, but [was] made alive in the spirit.”

 

[inJESUS]

Yes, good point…

Although Jesus rarely spoke of himself as God’s Son, he did acknowledge that he was. (Mark 14:61,*62; John 3:18; 5:25,*26; 11:4) Almost invariably, however, he said that he was “the Son of man.” By identifying himself this way, he highlighted his human birth—the fact that he was truly a man. Thus he also revealed himself to be that “son of man” whom Daniel had seen in vision appearing before Almighty God—“the Ancient of Days.”—Matthew 20:28; Daniel 7:13.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I think JWs don’t consider deeply enough
that Jesus is not only our sacrifice, our offering for sin,
but he is also mankind’s high-priest. Even NOW.
Now, a priest must be a MAN.
This is why Jesus, the high priest according
to the order and manner of Melchizedek, was
resurrected as the God-Man, not as a pure spirit.
His body was transformed just as St. Paul says in Corinthians.
A caterpillar is not the end product.
A ceterpillar lives, then goes into a cocoon, and
emerges not in the original form of a caterpillar, but as a
beautiful butterfly. But it is still the same essence or nature
of what it was when it went into the cocoon.
Jesus’s pure body still had to be glorified.
The Transfiguration in front of Peter, James, and John
was a showing-forth in advance of what Jesus’s glorified body was like. No mere perfect man could transfigure like that.
When Jesus was placed into the sepulchre, he was like a seed being planted in the ground. The seed “dies” in a sense in that what comes up out of the seed is much more glorious than the bare seed, it is a Plant. In the same way, Jesus’s natural but pure, sinless body went into the tomb in it’s natural state but emerged in it’s glorifed spiritualized state while still retaining continuity with it’s original essence. This spiritual body, united to his soul and Divinity, was fitted for heavenly life. But it was still in it’s essence a man. A glorified man, but still of human essence.
Otherwise, he could not serve in heaven as our eternal high priest and the REAL bridge between God and Man. Angels are not priests and can never be priests. Pure spirits cannot serve as priests. Jesus is the Priest after the order and manner of Melchizedek. Not only that, but he himself is the offering. By resurrecting physically, he did not take back the ransom price at all, but continues to offer himself in his glorified body as the pleasing sacrifice to God. The bloody death was over on Good Friday. But Jesus himself is the sacrifice, and he is risen. His sacrifice is perpetual. Just by BEING in the heavenly holy of Holies Jesus is our sacrifice because like Isaac (who could have resisted Abraham’s plan to sacrifice him), Jesus too gives himself over completely to the Father as our holy and now ever-living sacrifice, for when a person sacrifices, the sacrifice consists first of all in the self-giving attitude of the person’s heart.

By being in heaven as a glorified man, Jesus is our Priest and himself our offering, perpetually making intercession on our behalf before the Father. As he is both Deity and Man, he is the true
One Mediator between God and Man, forever, for he bridges both, having both natures in himself.

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Delraek]

Did you not know that Jesus and michael being the same is not taught by sacred scripture, but by Jw sacred tradition LOL (just jokeing)

But now seriously…Jw’s come to conclusions on scripture by mentaly reasoning in there minds as to what different scripture’s mean. That is why we do not teach that Christ brought his body to haven. **Because it dose not logicly make sence that flesh and blood could enter heaven.**Did Jesus have a perfct spirit body that Could be brought to heaven?
Jw don’t know. How would we…we were not there?
Imortality of the soul…The Holy Trinity…and Christ having a phisical body don’t make sense to our limited mind, and THAT is why it is not taught.
Keep in mind those making decisions have NO degrees in any nationaly recognized schools of theology. Just simple human reasoning that is all.

Just out of curiosity, what do you suppose happened to Elijah? He was still flesh and blood when he was lifted up to heaven in a whirlwind… (and he did show up later in the transfiguration.)

 

[BibleSteve]

Just out of curiosity, what do you suppose happened to Elijah? He was still flesh and blood when he was lifted up to heaven in a whirlwind… (and he did show up later in the transfiguration.)

To which of these heavens did the prophet Elijah ascend? Evidently, he was transferred through earth’s atmosphere and placed on a different part of the globe. Elijah was still on earth years later, for he wrote a letter to KingJehoram of Judah. (2Chronicles 21:1, 12-15) That Elijah did not ascend to the spiritual abode of Jehovah God was later confirmed by Jesus Christ, who declared: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man,” that is, Jesus himself. (John 3:13) The way to heavenly life was first opened up to imperfect humans after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ.—John 14:2, 3; Hebrews 9:24; 10:19, 20.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Here is a link to a good article on Elijah. I don’t think the
author is Catholic. Apparently, Elijah’s letter to Jehoram was written earlier in Elijah’s ministry, before he was taken up in the Chariot.

abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/people9.htm

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Here is an article under the topic Alleged Discrepancies,
which discusses Jesus words to Nicodemus vis-a-vis the statement in Kings that Elijah was taken up to heaven.
It may be helpful. This article was written for skeptics, not
for Jehovah’s Witnesses, but for people who believe the Bible
is a mess of contradictory nonsense. But it is still germaine to this discussion:

apologeticspress.org/

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I’m sorry Steve (and everybody else).
The link above was only to alleged discrepancies,
not to the specific article.
Below is the link to the specific article.
Enjoy!!

apologeticspress.org/articles/523

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Since “the dead know nothing” taken from Ecclesiates figures in strongly to Watchtower and Seventh Day Adventist views on life after death and the soul, here is an excellent article from Jimmy Akin examining the book of Ecclesiastes:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2005/06/the_dead_know_n.html

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I guess maybe quoting a verse or two out of context from Ecclesiastes and about Elijah, just won’t hold up after
consideration of the above articles.

InJESUS, what are your thoughts?

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I guess maybe quoting a verse or two out of context from Ecclesiastes and about Elijah, just won’t hold up after
consideration of the above articles.

InJESUS, what are your thoughts?

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

There is WAAAY too much emphasis put on Ecc 9:5.
This is not to mention the fact it was Old Testament when issues of Heaven and Hell were not as developed as New Testament times when they are laid down explicitly.

 

[SerenaHC]

BibleSteve,
Sorry, I can’t find the specific post I wanted to reply to.

Regarding your using Jesus’ referring to himself as the Son of Man as proof he was acknowledging that he was merely human, please see Daniel 7;13-14. The expected messiah was described as “…One like a ***son of man ***coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship, nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed.” This messianic title, Son of Man, is the only messianic title Jesus utters in the synoptic gospels (Mark, Matt., Luke.) Thus, when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, he was referring to the prophesy in the book of Daniel, to scriptures with which his fellow Jews would be familiar, and was identifying himself to them as their messiah. This was not a statement of his fleshly nature but, rather, of his messianic role. Hope this helps.

Serena