JW's: If Jesus is the archangel Michael,then the Messiah in the OT is Michael?

[Nicea325]

Publisher:

I understand the “flaws” in JW theology as an “orthodox” person sees it…whether I count it as serious a “flaw” as you do is what seems to be our sticking point…what one does and how one conducts his life and treats others…even to the point of representing their beliefs honestly and accurately is more important FOR ME than what they believe.

Well unfortunately my friend, I am not the only one who finds JW theology seriously lacking logic.

I have known extreemly kind, generous, merciful JW’s…by no means a large amount as I have not had many JW friends…they may believe wrong according to your tradition…

Not just my tradition my friend, the Christian tradition held by Catholics,Orthodoxs,Anglicans,Lutherans,Methodist,Baptist,etc. Well do not let their “kindness” and 'generous" image fool you. Remember what Jesus said: Wolves dressed in sheeps clothing. No…I am not saying they are bad folks and I understand they are teaching what they believe,but it does include the fact it is false and not just according to me.

but their life conduct and love for others speaks for itself…I have known “orthodox believers” that can state and claim all the “right beliefs”…yet are hateful, spiteful, rude, and miserable people…“though I speak with the tongue of men and angels…understand all mysteries…have all knowledge…and have not love…it profits me nothing”…

Again…do not let that fool you,because let me tell you, a former roommate of mine was a JW and he was nothing what you presented. Far from it.

To answer one of your questions…Michael is the “creature” created directly by God…all others were created by and through the Son…that sole situation of being not only the First of Creation…but the ONLY being created directly by God gives him a uniqueness…perhaps not according to Catholic belief…and that’s great…

Jesus is GOD…period! The Creator. Jesus was NOT created. Again,plenty of scriptural evidence to debunk the JW belief Jesus is NOT God.

but only “Michael” was created by God…the rest of creation…and all creatures were created by and through him who came among us incarnate…whether “Michael” incarnated and became Jesus of Nazareth…or God the Son, second Person of the Trinity…all things in heaven, earth, under the earth was created by him as God’s agent…“Michael” seems to hold a unique place in JW thought that the “other angels” do not share…how I view that isn’t an issue…but JW’s view “Michael” differently than you are portraying…IMO.

Again…Michael and ALL other creatures whether angelical,human,dog,cats,etc were created at one point in time. ONLY God is ETERNAL. No where does the OT or NT teach or reveal that God would allow Michael an angel to incarnate, be WORSHIPED and redeem humanity…no where!

 

[cath4alltime]

How do we know Micheal was create, is not that an assumption.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher:

Well unfortunately my friend, I am not the only one who finds JW theology seriously lacking logic.

Not just my tradition my friend, the Christian tradition held by Catholics,Orthodoxs,Anglicans,Lutherans,Methodist,Baptist,etc. Well do not let their “kindness” and 'generous" image fool you. Remember what Jesus said: Wolves dressed in sheeps clothing. No…I am not saying they are bad folks and I understand they are teaching what they believe,but it does include the fact it is false and not just according to me.

Again…do not let that fool you,because let me tell you, a former roommate of mine was a JW and he was nothing what you presented. Far from it.

Jesus is GOD…period! The Creator. Jesus was NOT created. Again,plenty of scriptural evidence to debunk the JW belief Jesus is NOT God.

Again…Michael and ALL other creatures whether angelical,human,dog,cats,etc were created at one point in time. ONLY God is ETERNAL. No where does the OT or NT teach or reveal that God would allow Michael an angel to incarnate, be WORSHIPED and redeem humanity…no where!

Again…you seem to be of the opinion I am defending their doctrine…I am seeking to relay what they believe honestly and accurately. I am not drawing conclusions…to state what others believe is not to agree nor is it to condone…something I get from your posts that is somehow “lost” on you concerning my posts.

I may be wrong…but we seem to be going in circles…so…with that…I will bow out of this thread…we don’t seem to be getting any where close to a mutual understanding…and that may be my “relativistic” understanding of such things.

 

[Kc906]

That is absolutely correct but in the JW “translation” of the bible, they stick the word ‘other’ in that verse to make it seem like Jesus was also created.

Yes, they do insert the word [other] in their NWT in Colossians 1 and Philippians 2 without the word appearing in the Greek. By stating that the term “firstborn” means that Jesus was created by God Almighty in Colossians 1, they of course run into other problems.

One of these problems: Would Michael the Archangel create all things for himself? Obviously as a “creature;” which is anything or anyone that had a beginning, he would have created everything for the Father, the One True God. But Colossians says the pre-incarnate Word created All things for himself. So if the pre-incarante Word was indeed Michael the Archangel, then one must also conclude that Michael created everything that came into existence for himself, not God.

To answer the OP’s question; from what I know the JW’s would have to conclude that anytime the name Michael was used in the Old Testament it was referring to the “same being” that was to become incarnate as Jesus.

 

[Nicea325]

Again…you seem to be of the opinion I am defending their doctrine…I am seeking to relay what they believe honestly and accurately. I am not drawing conclusions…to state what others believe is not to agree nor is it to condone…something I get from your posts that is somehow “lost” on you concerning my posts.

I may be wrong…but we seem to be going in circles…so…with that…I will bow out of this thread…we don’t seem to be getting any where close to a mutual understanding…and that may be my “relativistic” understanding of such things.

My dear friend, I said I understand your position,but I am showing you the JW errors in their belief an angel incarnated as a man. I never said you defended JW theology,but I personally pointed out their errors and it does not take much effort to debunk it.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes, they do insert the word [other] in their NWT in Colossians 1 and Philippians 2 without the word appearing in the Greek. By stating that the term “firstborn” means that Jesus was created by God Almighty in Colossians 1, they of course run into other problems.

One of these problems: Would Michael the Archangel create all things for himself? Obviously as a “creature;” which is anything or anyone that had a beginning, he would have created everything for the Father, the One True God. But Colossians says the pre-incarnate Word created All things for himself. So if the pre-incarante Word was indeed Michael the Archangel, then one must also conclude that Michael created everything that came into existence for himself, not God.

To answer the OP’s question; from what I know the JW’s would have to conclude that anytime the name Michael was used in the Old Testament it was referring to the “same being” that was to become incarnate as Jesus.

Exactly! As I told Publisher,if Jesus is NOT God,then wouldn’t it follow in the NT all the Apostles and authors of the NT would make it very clear Jesus is NOT God,but Michael incarnate?

 

[Publisher]

My dear friend, I said I understand your position,but I am showing you the JW errors in their belief an angel incarnated as a man. I never said you defended JW theology,but I personally pointed out their errors and it does not take much effort to debunk it.

Then I am pleased we have reached an agreement.

Peace to you friend.

 

[Nicea325]

Then I am pleased we have reached an agreement.

Peace to you friend.

Likewise…my friend. I am here to express charity and respect for others beliefs.

 

[Angelsflight]

I have studied angels for years, so I have many books on them. I have heard in a few of them it is thought that Michael was born into this earth…but as Adam, not Jesus.

Considering they are just books, not taken from the bible, we must question the source…but I thought it an interesting idea.

 

[Publisher]

I have studied angels for years, so I have many books on them. I have heard in a few of them it is thought that Michael was born into this earth…but as Adam, not Jesus.

Considering they are just books, not taken from the bible, we must question the source…but I thought it an interesting idea.

I believe that the LDS believe Adam was Michael.

 

[Angelsflight]

I believe that the LDS believe Adam was Michael.

Ok…perhaps that is where I heard it also…I was LDS for a short time in my early 20’s

 

[Phyllo]

How do we know Micheal was create, is not that an assumption.

I don’t think so. Michael is an angel therefore created by
God

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by cath4alltime
How do we know Micheal was create, is not that an assumption

No it is no assumption. If Michael was not created,it would conclude an angel is also Eternal. God alone is Eternal.

 

[cath4alltime]

No it is no assumption. If Michael was not created,it would conclude an angel is also Eternal. God alone is Eternal.

Unless that was just a title for Him. I am leaning that way myself

 

[Nicea325]

Unless that was just a title for Him. I am leaning that way myself

Let me explain. The title “angel” is their office and spiritual is their nature/being. Make sense?

 

[Pythons]

Since “Micha-el” means “he that is like God” or “he that resembles God” along with the SDA’s they embrace this belief…but believing Michael is Jesus in his preexistence is not necessarily to mean the incarnation is denied nor the resurrection since SDA’s believe along with Catholics that Jesus is God incarnate and in his bodily resurrection.

I do know the JW’s believe in a “spiritual” resurrection…“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” and “he was raised a life giving Spriit” is a couple of “proof texts” they would use…what happened to his body according to JW’s is unknown…it was theorized his body may have disolved into gases…but that isn’t an “official” teaching from what I understand.

The name meaning is a question, “WHO is like God”?..
…It does not mean the name is like or similar to God.

 

[Nicea325]

The name meaning is a question, “WHO is like God”?..
…It does not mean the name is like or similar to God.

Exactly!

 

[jlhargus]

If the JW’s teach Jesus’ is the archangel Michael in human form,then does it mean the Messiah of the OT was a reference to Michael?

Yes. According to my understandin of the book by Ron Rhodes, Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return. Michael was born as a human being ceasing his existence as an angel.

When the MAN Jesus died the man Jesus went out of existence. He was not raised (bodily) as a human son but as a spirit son. In other words at the resurrection this spirit son Jesus was raised as Michael.

I don’t wonder why JW’s don’t bring up the subject. It’s really convoluted especially since scripture clearly tells us Jesus the MAN is in heaven.

[1Tm2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and MEN (ANTHROPOS=human being, whether male or female), the MAN (ANTHROPOS=human being) Christ Jesus,]

[Acts17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN (ANER, man=individual male) he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising HIM from the dead."]

[Mt24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE **SON OF MAN COMING in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.]

 

[Nicea325]

Yes. According to my understandin of the book by Ron Rhodes, Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return. Michael was born as a human being ceasing his existence as an angel.

When the MAN Jesus died the man Jesus went out of existence. He was not raised (bodily) as a human son but as a spirit son. In other words at the resurrection this spirit son Jesus was raised as Michael.

I don’t wonder why JW’s don’t bring up the subject. It’s really convoluted especially since scripture clearly tells us Jesus the MAN is in heaven.

[1Tm2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and MEN (ANTHROPOS=human being, whether male or female), the MAN (ANTHROPOS=human being) Christ Jesus,]

[Acts17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN (ANER, man=individual male) he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising HIM from the dead."]

[Mt24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE **SON OF MAN

COMING in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.]

Exactly! As I told a former roommate of mine who is a JW:

No offense,but JW theology is like Swiss cheese…full of wholes!

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Would the creation of the entire universe, visible and invisible, be created for anyone else other than God?

Colossians 1:16,* For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and* for Him.

So by Michael the Archangel all things (including himself) were created, and all of these things were created for him?

Everything that was created was created by God and for God; the only way this statement is true is if Jesus is God.

FYI
According to “The Bible in Living English” Translated by Steven T. Byington, 1981 edition, page 1514 in reference to Christ Jesus:

Col 1:15-18 states “Who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation, because in him everything was created in the heavens and on earth, the visible and the invisible, be it thrones or lordships or governments or dominions-everything has been created through him and to come to him, and before everything he is, and in him everything holds together.”

This edition has been acquired, printed and distributed by the WTBTS!. Word is they signed a contract to print as is, says Jehovah all over the place & could not alter one comma! HOWEVER, it is a 180 from the New World Translation (see Jn 1:1 where Byington says it correctly on page 1365 “…and the Word was God.”); which in the end they look pretty much ASLEEP at the WT, WHATEVER!