JW's: If Jesus is the archangel Michael,then the Messiah in the OT is Michael?

[Nicea325]

FYI
According to “The Bible in Living English” Translated by Steven T. Byington, 1981 edition, page 1514 in reference to Christ Jesus:

Col 1:15-18 states “Who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation, because in him everything was created in the heavens and on earth, the visible and the invisible, be it thrones or lordships or governments or dominions-everything has been created through him and to come to him, and before everything he is, and in him everything holds together.”

This edition has been acquired, printed and distributed by the WTBTS!. Word is they signed a contract to print as is, says Jehovah all over the place & could not alter one comma! HOWEVER, it is a 180 from the New World Translation (see Jn 1:1 where Byington says it correctly on page 1365 “…and the Word was God.”); which in the end they look pretty much ASLEEP at the WT, WHATEVER!

So the JW organization uses this Bible version?

 

[Phyllo]

So the JW organization uses this Bible version?

The JW’s use a bible they wrote themselves the New World Translations. It was translated by 4 of their people. It follows what they believe. You can find out about it on the net.

 

[Nicea325]

The JW’s use a bible they wrote themselves the New World Translations. It was translated by 4 of their people. It follows what they believe. You can find out about it on the net.

I know of the NWT,but I was under the impression they might be using another printed Bible ouside their organization?

 

[Phyllo]

I know of the NWT,but I was under the impression they might be using another printed Bible ouside their organization?

I would doubt it but I’ll ask my JW friend tomorrow.

 

[Nicea325]

I would doubt it but I’ll ask my JW friend tomorrow.

I doubt it. My ex-roommate is a JW and he was told not to read anything outside their organization. How cultish.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

So the JW organization uses this Bible version?

The Bible in Living English was purchased by WTBTS from Steven Byington - says “Jehovah” all over the place. However, they FAILED TO READ THE REST OF THE BIBLE! Quotes below from the Watchtower & copyrighted 1972, with total printing as of 1981: 225,000 Copies

John 1:1 “the Word was God”

Col 1:15 "…because in him everything was created in the heavens and the earth,…

John 8:58 "Jesus said to them “Verily, verily I tell you, before there was an Abraham I am.”

to name just 3 examples.

This poses a difficult, very serious dilemma concerning trust of the Watchtower: WHICH Bible to you keep? WHICH Bible do you burn?

Result: EITHER the Watchtower is WRONG with the Byington in John 1:1 or is wrong in the NWT; you can’t have it BOTH WAYS; again, which is RIGHT? Which is WRONG? This is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of SCRIPTURE TWISTING leaving our poor brothers and sisters in a spiritual KNOT of DECEPTION.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Yes I understand,but simply because Michael means: He that is like God, does not change an iota that ALL angels of all ranks were CREATED,thus are mere creatures.

Can God appear as an angel? Yes of course! Even St.Paul says the Devil can appear as an angel of light.

Angel “Angelos” means “messenger”. Did not Christ Jesus “come to bring the Good News”? There is the Angel of Light (demonic) versus the Light of the World (Jesus). So Jesus could be called a messenger & but definitely is the Light of the World could NOT have delivered a different gospel. The “confusion” here is DELIBERATE concerning what kind of messenger - Angelic created nature, Divine uncreated nature or of Human created nature OR the DIVINE GOD-MAN.

St Michael is mentioned only 5 times in Scripture:

Daniel 10:13, 10:21, 12:1; Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7. Mighty skimpy pickings to evolve the Savior of the World into an angel.

Concerning worship of Angels, it is completely forbidden.
For what angel did God ever say, 'Thou art my Son?
Heb 1: 6 “Let all of God’s angels worship him” (see Rev 5:13-14, 14:7). This was PUBLISHED in the Zion’s Watch Tower July 1879, page 9.

See Heb 1:5 which cites Psalm 2:7; Heb 1:6 which cites Deut 32:43; Heb 1:7-8 which cites Psalm 104:4, Ps 45:6 and Ps102:25.

WT fraudulently tosses in “obeisance” which in other passages they render “Proskuneo” as worship. Interesting how same word in greek all of a sudden has a different meaning especially when Jesus is clearly the subject of worship.

(Thanks to Jason Evert’s book “Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses” pages 72 &73 -book available on this web site I’m sure!).

 

[Phyllo]

I doubt it. My ex-roommate is a JW and he was told not to read anything outside their organization. How cultish.

I spoke to my JW friend and she told me that the Watchtower only prints what it writes. So I would doubt that the WT is printing that bible.

 

[T_More]

I spoke to my JW friend and she told me that the Watchtower only prints what it writes. So I would doubt that the WT is printing that bible.

Your friend is flat out wrong. “Their” interlinear, called “The Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures” is in fact a interlinear produced by Westcott & Hort and the WT does not hide that within. Your friend has probably never laid eyes on one of these beauties. I just had a couple of priests from a religious order at my home for dinner very recently and I showed them a copy of this. They were blown away at the deception.

Another book they printed themselves is called “The Emphatic Dialgott”, of which they acquired printing rights from Benjamin Wilson’s heirs after his death, who owned the copy rights.

 

[Nicea325]

Your friend is flat out wrong. “Their” interlinear, called “The Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures” is in fact a interlinear produced by Westcott & Hort and the WT does not hide that within. Your friend has probably never laid eyes on one of these beauties. I just had a couple of priests from a religious order at my home for dinner very recently and I showed them a copy of this. They were blown away at the deception.

Another book they printed themselves is called “The Emphatic Dialgott”, of which they acquired printing rights from Benjamin Wilson’s heirs after his death, who owned the copy rights.

I cannot for the life of me understand how JW’s do not catch on?

 

[Nicea325]

Angel “Angelos” means “messenger”. Did not Christ Jesus “come to bring the Good News”? There is the Angel of Light (demonic) versus the Light of the World (Jesus). So Jesus could be called a messenger & but definitely is the Light of the World could NOT have delivered a different gospel. The “confusion” here is DELIBERATE concerning what kind of messenger - Angelic created nature, Divine uncreated nature or of Human created nature OR the DIVINE GOD-MAN.

St Michael is mentioned only 5 times in Scripture:

Daniel 10:13, 10:21, 12:1; Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7. Mighty skimpy pickings to evolve the Savior of the World into an angel.

Concerning worship of Angels, it is completely forbidden.
For what angel did God ever say, 'Thou art my Son?
Heb 1: 6 “Let all of God’s angels worship him” (see Rev 5:13-14, 14:7). This was PUBLISHED in the Zion’s Watch Tower July 1879, page 9.

See Heb 1:5 which cites Psalm 2:7; Heb 1:6 which cites Deut 32:43; Heb 1:7-8 which cites Psalm 104:4, Ps 45:6 and Ps102:25.

WT fraudulently tosses in “obeisance” which in other passages they render “Proskuneo” as worship. Interesting how same word in greek all of a sudden has a different meaning especially when Jesus is clearly the subject of worship.

(Thanks to Jason Evert’s book “Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses” pages 72 &73 -book available on this web site I’m sure!).

Exactly!

 

[Phyllo]

Your friend is flat out wrong. “Their” interlinear, called “The Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures” is in fact a interlinear produced by Westcott & Hort and the WT does not hide that within. Your friend has probably never laid eyes on one of these beauties. I just had a couple of priests from a religious order at my home for dinner very recently and I showed them a copy of this. They were blown away at the deception.

Another book they printed themselves is called “The Emphatic Dialgott”, of which they acquired printing rights from Benjamin Wilson’s heirs after his death, who owned the copy rights.

Interesting.
She has seen the KIT because she gave one to me so I guess she doesn’t know the inside workings of the WT. I wonder if she knows about “The Emphatic Dialgott”. I wouldn’t mind getting my hands on a copy of that just to see what it is about. I have heard of it.

 

[Phyllo]

I cannot for the life of me understand how JW’s do not catch on?

I guess they have the WT interpretation of the scriptures and listen with a deaf ear to what any one else has to say. They will argue with you until you are blue in the face and just won’t hear the truth. According to them they have the truth and that is that. Every one else in is error and from Satan. More is the pity.

 

[Nicea325]

I guess they have the WT interpretation of the scriptures and listen with a deaf ear to what any one else has to say. They will argue with you until you are blue in the face and just won’t hear the truth. According to them they have the truth and that is that. Every one else in is error and from Satan. More is the pity.

Oh I agree. I remember telling my ex-roommate who was JW on their many errors and you are right-they do not listen to anyone. Very sad!

 

[T_More]

Interesting.
She has seen the KIT because she gave one to me so I guess she doesn’t know the inside workings of the WT. I wonder if she knows about “The Emphatic Dialgott”. I wouldn’t mind getting my hands on a copy of that just to see what it is about. I have heard of it.

If you have one, great! Show her John 8:58 and ask her why the Greek in the left hand column says “I am” and the NWT in the right hand column shows “I have been”. It’s as plain as day for her.

I have the Emphatic Diaglott. It’s cool to have for additonal ammo, but if the JW can’t see the deception in the Interlinear, I’m not sure if the Diaglott will help a whole lot.

 

[Phyllo]

If you have one, great! Show her John 8:58 and ask her why the Greek in the left hand column says “I am” and the NWT in the right hand column shows “I have been”. It’s as plain as day for her.

I have tried that in the past, all though I didn’t show her the KIT, you know their pat answer to that. It is that Jesus existed before Abraham but he is not God.

I have the Emphatic Diaglott. It’s cool to have for additonal ammo, but if the JW can’t see the deception in the Interlinear, I’m not sure if the Diaglott will help a whole lot.

I wonder if she could get me one from the WT. I’ll have to ask her.

They also change the wording(among other changes)in Ex. 3:14.

 

[T_More]

I have tried that in the past, all though I didn’t show her the KIT, you know their pat answer to that. It is that Jesus existed before Abraham but he is not God.

But that’s why showing her the KIT is so powerful. Their own English words under the Greek says “I am”, and then renders it in the right hand column as “I have been”. It’s not even close.

I wonder if she could get me one from the WT. I’ll have to ask her.

Doubtful. They stop printing it in the 1940’s.

They also change the wording(among other changes)in Ex. 3:14.

**There are a ton of places where you can see the changes using the KIT. That’s why they don’t distribute it anymore and they are sought after by apologists who attempt to dialogue with them. It’s probably the single most damaging publication against them that they themselves have ever produced. I’m thankful I’ve kept the 1969 copies that I have and I was blessed to have found a 1985 copy in a library used book store for $1 over 2 years ago.

In the end, it’s still very difficult to get through to them, even using their own writings. They don’t even know when they’ve lost the debate. All one can one do at that point is leave it to the Holy Spirit to do His work.
**

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Phyllo:

I HAVE the purple covered KIT (1969 edition? I’d have to check for sure) AND the blue covered Byington “THE BIBLE in Living English” 1981 printing plus a few other gems. Found at Catholic Thrift stores for a few bucks each.

This discovery surprized me when I leafed through it going first to John 1:1 where it CLEARLY states on page 1365: “and the Word was God.” → Then I looked at the Copyright page noticing this Bible was printed by the WTBTS & was amazed by this gaffe, a 180 degree departure from their heavily promoted New World Translation! I rather think they didn’t print many more Living English editions after this 1981 edition. The JW faithful I have chatted with seem aware of the Byington but don’t seem to have reviewed an edition at their local kingdom hall; which begs the question: WHY isn’t the Byington Living English edition promoted any longer?
After all they went to the trouble to buy the rights to it from Steven Byington mainly because it says Jehovah all over the place.

A rather distressing oversight by those ASLEEP at the top of the Watchtower - no secret they lack an ounce of credibility. The WT PRINTED & PROMOTED these books - probably much to their horror when they finally put 2 & 2 together.

The announcements of the rolling “end of the world” (from 1914 to 1975) awards them FALSE PROPHET status but this blatant SCRIPTURE TWISTING really takes the cake. :tsktsk:

 

[tabycat]

I have tried that in the past, all though I didn’t show her the KIT, you know their pat answer to that. It is that Jesus existed before Abraham but he is not God. .

There is one slight problems with that answer; it is not what God or the Jews know it ment.

 

[Phyllo]

T_More:
My KIT is 1985. I am surprised that they allow their members to have the KIT. Don’t their members question the difference themselves?

I’ll have to look in a used book store then for the other book.

I was able to get my hands on a 1961 NWT but as luck would have it, the verses that I wanted to look the page was missing. I wonder how many other pages might be missing. I do have the latest one though.