JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

[Bishopite]

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BibleSteve;2327103

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1. Why did Jesus say “that all authority has been GIVEN to me in heaven
   and on earth”? Matt. 28:18, Dan. 7:13, 14 (similar)

Phil 2:5-7

1. Why did he have godly fear? Heb. 5:7

Must be the flawed WT translation, my Bibles don’t use those words.

1. How could he learn obedience and be made perfect? Heb. 5:8-9

Another redundancy, see Phil 2:5-7 Jesus emptied Himself being born of a woman Luke 1:31

1. Why would an angel be able to strengthen him or angels minister to him?
   Luke 22:43, Matt. 4:11

Phil 2:5-7

1. Why would Satan try to tempt him if he KNEW that he was GOD?
   Matt. 4:1-11

For an example to us.

1. Jesus when sent to the earth was made to “be Lower” than the angels.
   Heb. 2:7. How could any part of a God Head EVER be lower than the
   angels?

Phil 2:5-7 I would quote the WT translation but it butchered the text so badly I can’t allow any civil person to read it.

1. Then if Jesus was the same as God, who was he being tempted to rebel
   against? Could God be tempted to rebel against himself? Matt. 4:1

Uh…Jesus could be tempted but He could yield to any sin because He was/is the same nature as God.

1. Near the end of his earthly life, Jesus cried out “My God, why have you forsaken me?” Matt. 27:46 Can God desert or forsake himself?

I’m not aware of God ever deserting Himself in sacred Scripture or sacred Tradition, but I am aware of God being three persons, one God.
THE REASON that Jesus says “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me” is because He is QUOTING Psalm 22:2; and in both instances, Jesus does not utter this quote in Greek, but in Hebrew (in Matthew’s version) and/or Aramaic (in Mark’s version). So, it is not the same term used by Thomas in John’s Gospel at all. Also, the reason that Jesus utters this quote from Psalm 22 is NOT because He is someone different from God, but rather because He is speaking as the prophesied Suffering Servant (the Jewish Messiah) Who has taken the sins of all mankind upon Himself, and so is speaking AS A MAN at this point. The words of Jesus (quoting the Psalm) are the words of every sinner like you and myself who is isolated from God (see 2 Corinth 5:21).

1. Heb. 5:8 says that Jesus learned obedience! To whom would he obey if he was GOD? And Does God need to LEARN anything?

Jesus was born in a natural birth after emptying Himself taking on the form and likeness of men, so He grew in knowledge as a human It would be something like us going to be an ant and taking on the form and nature of the ant; the only difference is Jesus was infinite coming into finite, if we became an ant (hypothetically speaking) we would only be the finite within the finite, so Jesus’ act far surpasses that as He gave up (temporarily) eternity to enter time in order to die for our sins and resurrect into heaven.

 

[Bishopite]

By the way, speaking of apostles… Here’s a little Trinity reasoning point:

Why was the word “apostle” appropriate to use for the group of men Jesus selected? What meaning did it have? Why was the same word used for Jesus?

Here’s why:

The Greek word a·po′sto·los is derived from the common verb a·po·stel′lo, meaning simply “send forth (or off).” (Mt 10:5; Mr 11:3) Its basic sense is clearly illustrated in Jesus’ statement: “A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth [a·po′sto·los] greater than the one that sent him.” (Joh 13:16) In this sense the word also applies to Christ Jesus as “the apostle and high priest whom we confess.” (Heb 3:1; compare Mt 10:40; 15:24; Lu 4:18,*43; 9:48; 10:16; Joh 3:17; 5:36,*38; 6:29,*57; 7:29; 8:42; 10:36; 11:42; 17:3, 8, 18, 21-25; 20:21.) Jesus was sent forth by God as his appointed and commissioned representative.

Jesus sent forth these men and called them apostles.

 

[Bishopite]

You do not understand the Trinity. It is your logic that is flawed because you assign to the Trinity what is not there and then speak against it.

No Christian thinks the Son is the Father. The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are not confused. You really need to know what you’re talking about before attempting to antagonise. You just look like a dolt when you do this. You deny the Trinity, so be it. But under no circumstances are you to attempt to mock anyone who believes in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Suggested readings:
Saint Pope Leo the Great’s (famous) Tome to Flavian (See item 3 in the link)

Tertullian’s Apology

BibleSteve tries to argue against the Trinity using modalistic illogic that’s why he keeps asking how can Jesus pray to the Father if He is God? Well, again Steve, the Trinity is three *persons…ONE God.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

What would happen to a peaceful person, who simply didn’t believe in the Trinity from 325 BC until the late 1800’s.? Why did Isaac Newton hide his view the Trinity was false?

Steve

Funny, I have read his correspondance, he did not hide his view of the trinity during his life time as you say.

You can locate the following through worldcat,

Paradoxical questions concerning ye morals and actions of Athanasius and his followers. Author: Newton, Isaac, Sir, 1642-1727. Publication: 1690

Certain philosophical questions : Newton’s Trinity notebook /
Author: McGuire, J. E.; Tamny, Martin.; Newton, Isaac,

Correspondence of Sir Isaac Newton and Professor Cotes :
including letters of other eminent men now first published from the originals in the library of Trinity College, Cambridge; together with an appendix, containing other unpublished letters and papers by Newton; with notes, synoptical view of the philosopher’s life, and a variety of details illustrative of his history /
Author: Newton, Isaac, Sir, 1642-1727.; Edleston, J.; Cotes, Roger,

An historical account of two notable corruptions of Scripture :
in a letter to a friend : published entire from a ms. in the author’s hand-writing in the possession of the Rev. Dr. Ekens, Dean of Carlisle / Author: Newton, Isaac, Sir, 1642-1727.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jehovah or Yahweh?

Is “Jehovah” the correct translation of God’s name? Let’s consider what a variety of resources have to say about this rendering.

Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary: “Jehovah” – False reading of the Hebrew YAHWEH.(8)

As I recall their Kingdom Interlinear has an article that documents that Jehovah is a mistranslation, and that the correct translation is in fact Yahweh.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Dear Catholic Dude (nice name by the way!).

You’ve brought up Heb 1:8 as a proof that Jesus is God. Have you compared this scripture against other translations? By doing so, you will see there is translational ambiguity, with disagreement between translators. Since I have a large library of 50+ translations, I’ve noticed something interesting…

[qoute]
Robertson’s Word Pictures of the New Testament

O God (o qeo߼/B>). This quotation (the fifth) is from Psalms 45:7. A Hebrew nuptial ode (epiqalamium) for a king treated here as Messianic. It is not certain whether o qeo߼/B> is here the vocative (address with the nominative form as in John 20:28 with the Messiah termed qeo߼/B> as is possible, John 1:18) or o qeo߼/B> is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: “God is thy throne” or “Thy throne is God.” Either makes good sense. Sceptre (rabdo߼/B>). Old word for walking-stick, staff (Hebrews 11:21).

Steve, how do you understand,

Hebrews 1:5a “For to which of the angels did God ever say”

The clear answer is God never said, “you are my son” to an angel which clearly proves that the Son of God was NEVER an angel.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I do not recognize these abbreviations…please provide the full names of each version.

Thanks.

I am guessing that “Mo” maybe Moffat, no idea on AT or TC. In standard biblical scholarship TC is a journal of textual criticism.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Why not follow Bible Steve’s “natural”, “common sense” logic and see if it collaborates with the rest of scripture. Here’s my feeble attempt. I know very little scripture for reference, so please feel free to correct me.

Assume Jehovah and Jesus are not “equal”, “the same”. JW’s will tell you that Jehovah is true God and Jesus…well he’s just “a god” notice (small g). JW’s will also tell you that Jehovah God and him alone will you worship.

But later in the NT, in one of St. Paul’s letters (see I told you I couldn’t reference scripture), we read that when Jesus comes in glory all in heaven, on earth and under the earth will fall to their knees and worship and proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Now if Jesus gets some worship, which is only and solely reserved for Jehovah God, we have a problem. The Christian faith has gone from Monotheistic to Polytheistic. This in turn invalidates the Bible and the New World Translations completely.

Think about it.

You know you bring up a good point that JW’s have two gods, thus are polytheists.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Let’s return to the third phrase in John 1:1,…
from spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/deity.htm

Also, check out, The Apologists Bible Commentary
forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1.htm
forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1_ov4.htm

it explains that the “word was God” is the correct translation in that it is teaching that the word is God or divine in nature.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

How many translation do you think exist that don’t say “The Word was God?” Take a guess.

Steve

Since, those that translate like the NWT are either from an occultist ( Johannes Greber.), christadelphian, unitarian or arian, it does not matter how many exists.

Those that translate, “the word was divine”, refer to the divine nature of the word, note that divine ah means “God”.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

May I get your comment on these scriptures first?

(Psalm 82:1) God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges:

(Psalm 82:6) “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High.

John 10:22-39 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.

24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

If Jesus, was merely saying that he was one in mind or purpose with God the Father, the Jews would not have reacted the way they did.

John 5:18-19 (King James Version)

18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that **God was his Father, making himself equal with God. **

19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Steve, do you think Jesus was a poor communicator? Then why on more than one occasion did the Jews pick up stones to kill him for claiming to be God?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jehovah didn’t think very highly of these judges or “gods,” even if they were supposed to be his representatives. See Psalm 82: 5 and 7 We would certainly not equate Jesus to one of these gods, would we?

amen I am breaking at post 76 on page 6

 

[trucho]

Hi Steve! Hi Everyone!

If you want to search the Catholic thought and the concept of Trinity down to its origins, you must go to our first fathers.
The JW claim that the concept of Trinity appeared after the Council of 325 A.D. and that none of the early Christians knew about it. (“Should you Believe in the Trinity?” Spanish (ti-S) F.W. Franz Watch Tower Society), which of course is completely false.

First you have to remember what the word “logos” meant in Greek, which is usually translated as “word” but actually meant much more than that. It was a word or a speech, but also a thought and was usually related to breathing. Therefore the words you thought became speech by your breath, they came with the air that came out of you, so your “logos” was indeed a part of your self. Under the concept of “Logos” your Words where indivisible from your thoughts and from yourself.

Once again I think you should go to Saint Justin Martyr and see what the first Christian communities believed in. Also you can go to Irenaeus.
www.earlychristianwritings.com
Justin Martyr first apology Chapter LXIII where you can see that Jesus is Jehovah
Chapter XXI where you can see that “Jehovah” is not a name.

Irenaeus of Lyons book IV Chapter XX very interesting thoughts about the Wisdom of God, which he believed to be the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bishopite]

Originally Posted by BibleSteve
What would happen to a peaceful person, who simply didn’t believe in the Trinity from 325 BC until the late 1800’s.? Why did Isaac Newton hide his view the Trinity was false?

Steve

Merely being “peaceful” doesn’t get one into heaven with God because we are all sinners (Rom 3:23). What gets us into heaven is grace, faith, baptism and good works (Eph 2:8-10, John 3:5, Titus 3:5, Mark 16:16, John 3:16). If a person doesn’t believe in the Trinity because he/she has never heard of it or has never been presented with it as the truth, they aren’t culpable of it before God, for He judges us in what we all know to be true and whether we followed what He has revealed to us by His grace (Luke 12:48).

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Wow,

At this point we have to give Steve some credit, he has been willing to come in here and defend himself, even when there are 10 different questions he has to deal with at a time.

It is cool that a JW has actually wanted to come in here and go head to head with us Catholics…I cant remember this happening before.

Steve says he is not counting his time here, so I have to believe him. But usually a JW would be counting every minute they spend on this forum as field service time and it would be recorded on their time slips. Also if the JW has already spoken to you once then the next time it is counted as a ‘return visit’. after three return visits you might even be able to stretch it into being counted as a Bible Study. So an average thread like this could be very productive (on paper) for a JW. How do I know? I did it.
Ravyn

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I’m glad you are cracking yourself up.

Let’s see if your statement “you’re alone there” with regard to John 1:1 is correct or false. Will you retract that statement as incorrect, or just immediately attack all these other translators?
…

“The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being.” (Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907)

In John 1:1c “the word was divine or God” --the word “God or divine” is not a proper name; it is a noun which means “Deity”. Any way you slice it, John portrays Jesus as divine or God by nature.

John 12:41says that Isaiah saw Jesus, referring to Isaiah chapter 6. YHWH is clearly the referent there.

John 12:33-41

33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

34The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

35Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Isaiah 6

1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

12And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

13But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I’m still interested in finding out how many translations state “the Word was God.”

Frankly, Claude, I am more interrested in how the church fathers who are authoritive translate John 1:1c.

Augustine,

Tractate 1 (John 1:1-5)

1. When I give heed to what we have just read from the apostolic lesson, that “the natural man perceives not the things which are of the Spirit of God,” 1 Corinthians 2:14 and consider that in the present assembly, my beloved, there must of necessity be among you many natural men, who know only according to the flesh, and cannot yet raise themselves to spiritual understanding, I am in great difficulty how, as the Lord shall grant, I may be able to express, or in my small measure to explain, what has been read from the Gospel, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;” for this the natural man does not perceive.

newadvent.org/fathers/1701001.htm

Irenaeus ( 115 - 142 )

For that according to John relates His original, effectual, and glorious generation from the Father, thus declaring, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1 Also, “all things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.” For this reason, too, is that Gospel full of all confidence, for such is His person.

newadvent.org/fathers/0103311.htm

clement, ( died 215 )

You have, then, God’s promise; you have His love: become partaker of His grace. And do not suppose the song of salvation to be new, as a vessel or a house is new. For “before the morning star it was;” and “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1 Error seems old, but truth seems a new thing.

Whether, then, the Phrygians are shown to be the most ancient people by the goats of the fable; or, on the other hand, the Arcadians by the poets, who describe them as older than the moon; or, finally, the Egyptians by those who dream that this land first gave birth to gods and men: yet none of these at least existed before the world. But before the foundation of the world were we, who, because destined to be in Him, pre-existed in the eye of God before,—we the rational creatures of the Word of God, on whose account we date from the beginning; for “in the beginning was the Word.” Well, inasmuch as the Word was from the first, He was and is the divine source of all things; but inasmuch as He has now assumed the name Christ, consecrated of old, and worthy of power, he has been called by me the New Song. This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal. For, according to that inspired apostle of the Lord, “the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Titus 2:11-13

newadvent.org/fathers/020801.htm

The Fathers:

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans (C. 110 A.D.):

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the greatness of the Most High Father and in Jesus Christ, His only Son: to the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of Him that has willed everything which is: to the Church also which holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans…To those who are united in flesh and in spirit by every commandment of His, who are filled with the grace of God without wavering, and who are filtered clear of every foreign stain, I wish an alloyed joy in Jesus Christ, our God.”

Tatian the Syrian, Address to the Greeks (C. 165 - 175 A.D.):

“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man.”

St. Melito of Sardes, Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai (C. 177 A.D.):

“The activities of Christ after His Baptism, and especially His miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the Deity hidden in His flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, He gave positive indications of His two natures: of His Deity, by the miracles during the three years following after His Baptism; of His humanity, in the thirty years which came before His Baptism, during which, by reason of His condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God existing before the ages.”

theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book1.htm#THE%20DIVINITY

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

You are right, it was Randy in post #59. My apologies to you.

I would expect the majority of translations would read as the Catholic church insisted they should under the death penalty. 1300’s years of that type of pressure gets the point across to anyone who sees things differently.

Whats your proof of this? Please simply list standard histories and primary sources. I am more than happy to visit a bible school library.

In fact, Schaff History of the Christian Church is online. If you quote it, please use links too.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Two were obviously JW threads and the other two were in a foreign language but appeared to be similar to the three in English

In google, simply click on “translate site” to see it in English.

One of his sources, ED was clearly Christadelphian, basically bedfellows to JW’s theology wise in some cases.

Some of his sources were Unitarians.

Richard Lattimore who is well known for his translations of the Iliad and Odyssey of Homer translates John 1:1c as “and the word was God”.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I came here to specifically anwers questions raised about JW’s understanding of the Trinity. Along the way, I’ve been called a cult member, decieved by Satan, hopeless lost, naive, etc. and even insulted that we’ve changed the scriptures to meet our belief systems.
…
Steve

Steve, could you kindly outline and explain in simple terms your understanding of “Son of God”? starting with his pre-existence.

Note: Nowhere in scripture does it explicitly say that the Son of God is Micheal the Archangel. So, to prove this you need an explict statement just as you demand of others.