JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

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One more…just to completely discredit you…

“The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being.” (Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907

Again, a direct quote from your list of “scholars” and “theologians”. Here is the complete hit response from Google.

AnsweringAntiMormons.com
Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907, “The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being.” 44. Bohmer, 1910, "It was strongly linked to God, yes itself divine …
www.answeringantimormons.com/John%201-1.htm - 42k - Cached - Similar pages
Foros de Antesdelfin.com - Jehovah Es Rey.
Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907, “The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being.” Bohmer, 1910, "It was strongly linked to God, yes itself divine …
www.theologyweb.com/campus/archive/index.php/t-20207.html - 358k - Cached - Similar pages
Jo.1.1
Yep, just you and the Mormons again…who is Curt Stage?

Wow. These are some impressive folks you’ve arrayed against me, Steve…

:rotfl:
 
Randy_Carson said:
Just as one example, I typed the following into Google:

“a God/god was the Logos/logos” (Jurgen Becker, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1979)

This is a cut and paste on one of your quotes. Do you know how many hits I got? Five. That’s right, five hits out of billions of pages avaiable on the web.

One of them was a site defending Mormonism and citing Jurgen Becker’s translation - the same as you!

Two were obviously JW threads and the other two were in a foreign language but appeared to be similar to the three in English.

It seems that Mr. Becker has not had much exposure to the Internet. Is he a real person? Who knows?

Like I said, I have no interest in chasing down obscure quotes from no-name scholars who are championed only by JW’s and Mormons.
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Well, if you looked a little closer at the list, you’d see some other folks like Jesuits, Archbishops, and other well know translations…

But, I simply provided you with the link in case you were the type of person who’s interested in actually looking at information…

If you don’t want to look at 50 variations of John 1:1 and simply believe the NWT is the only one out there like this… then go right ahead…

Steve
 
One last point i’d like to make to you steve.

please, do not take this as offensive because it is not intended that way. The society has misquoted scriptures to suit their belief system. they have changed Bible verses to suit their belief and to perpetuate that belief. the society has no credibility at all. none.
iam not trying to attack your belief, only to point out facts to you so that you can question your own beliefs with facts and not blindly believe what they tell you is truth when in fact it is not.

here are some things for you to consider. the society has lied many many times about the dates for armageddon, and lied about the generation not passing away until these things occured as stated in their watchtower years ago, and that did not come to pass now did it? no.

another thing to consider for you is there is no untruth with God. none. The society has made many false predictions about the end. With God, there is no falsehood. they cannot claim to speak for God when in fact they don’t. period. the society is not God’s mouthpiece. God would not have a lying organization for His mouthpiece.

Here is another thing to consider. your not even allowed to question the doctrines of the society to the elders, and your not even allowed to comment on the false predictions of the end of the so called system of things because that would be calling them out on it, and they’d have to answer to you now wouldn’t they?

so what do they do? they tell you that if you DARE to question the society your an apostate or an opposer. that is emotional blackmail. period. they threaten you with eternal anilaltion by God
if you dare to question what the society believes and practices.

You do not have to believe the garbage they teach. you have a right to question anything they teach! you have a fundamental right to question them! if they refuse you then what does that say about them? that they do not want to be proven wrong and they don’t want to have to face up to facts!

how can you believe anything that they say? i don’t. iam not misled either believe me. i know how they operate and i know what they teach and iam not fooled for one single second.

they are not of God becase God is truth, and the watchtower organization is not true at all. take for instance the Bible specifically states that no one knows the hour or the day when
Christ will return. your organization claims He returned in 1914
invisibly. well, that is erroneous.That would invalidate that scripture. Your society is lying about that. they do not know when Christ will return nor do they have a right to state so.

The Bible also says that when Jesus returns that EVERY eye will see Him. not as your society claims, “invisibly”. It will actually be Christ VISIBLE to us all. your society tries to invalidate that scripture as well.

do your homework on your society steve. don’t be fooled by them.
get the facts and when you do, question your elders and don’t let them try to hornswaggle you and try to manipulate you or threaten you with apostate status or anything like that. stick to your guns and don’t back down.
 
TraditionalCath said:
do your homework on your society steve. don’t be fooled by them.
get the facts and when you do, question your elders and don’t let them try to hornswaggle you and try to manipulate you or threaten you with apostate status or anything like that. stick to your guns and don’t back down.
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Dear TraditionalCath,

I have probably read more anti-JW books than everyone here combined. I have also procurred every Watchtower magazine and book written by the WTS going back to the late 1870’s so I could check all the viscious claims against JWs and the WTS.

I’d say I’ve done my homework. I disagree with your assessment.

But all the best to you,

Steve
 
The Word of Speech was a God" (John Crellius, Latin form of German, The 2 Books of John Crellius Fancus, Touching One God the Father, 1631)

“and was himself a divine person” (Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768)

“a God” (Joseph Priestley, LL.D., F.R.S. [Philadelphia: Thomas Dobson, 1794], 37).)

1631? 1776?

You’re citing these guys as examples of the best that Greek scholarship has to offer?

By the way, your boy, John Crellius Fancus, got a whopping five hits…yeah, you and the Mormons again.

Why is it the only place I can find any of these famous translators quoted is on chat boards from this same list of quotes that is being posted over and over and over again by JW’s?

Why is it that no one else has ever quoted any of these noted scholars?

Just you. And the Mormons.
 
Well, then i can only say to you, so be it. i have proven to you that the society has lied and lied and lied many times over. if your convinced that they are for real, well, there is nothing i can do to tell you otherwise. i just feel bad for you because your misled.

you have a fundamental right to question what the governing body does and you have a right to speak to them about the false predictions of the end of the system of things, you also have a right to question them about everything they believe.

i had witnesses come to my door and i spoke with them about the claim that 1975 was the end, and they got mad and flustered and tried to make many excuses to me and they could not prove anything to me. i also questioned them about how many times their society made false predictions about the end and they would not even talk to me about it. all they would say is, oh, there is new light! well guess what steve?

they use the term “new light” every time one of their predictions or statements fails as a means to explain their failure in their predictions. guess what? truth does NOT change! they have changed their beliefs many times to suit themselves or when they were proven wrong. truth does not change my friend. no way.

so again, do not be fooled.
 
BibleSteve said:
I’d say I’ve done my homework. I disagree with your assessment.
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I disagree with your assessment.

I’d say you’ve drunk waaaaay too much WTS kool-aid.

It’s a cult, Steve, and they’ve lied to you.
 
Steve says he has read every piece of Watchtower literature dating back to the 1870s and finds no truth in the accusations made against the Watchtower Society.

It is possible that he has, for one reason,
namely, the Society sells CDROM reprints of all it’s old literature, but those things have been highly edited.

The Society’s leaders are habitual liars of the worst sort.
They make predictions in the name of God, and every one of their predictions has FAILED, and yet JWs still hang starry-eyed on everything these men say. And then the leaders have the added gall to publish literature claiming that they never made the false prophecies that they indeed made. How do you reason with men like this? With men whose consciences evidently have been seared as with a branding iron??

I’ll give you an example of a grotesque lie that they told, one of very many. In the 1950s WTS book JEHOVAHS WITNESSES IN THE DIVINE PURPOSE, there is a short description of Frederick W. Franz, the Society’s chief writer and later it’s President.
The statement is made that Fred Franz is a great scholar
who “carried away the honors of the University of Cincinnati.”
That’s a very flattering statement. In plainer English it means that Freddy graduated with High Honors from the University of Cincinnati.

Well, the fact is that Frederick Franz did NOT graduate,
not from the University of Cincinnati or any OTHER university for that matter. He had a couple of years of college and dropped out to serve at Bethel. He was not a scholar at all and not even a college graduate. Much less did he ever “carry away the honors of the University of Cincinnati.” Books that claim he did, and he was on the writing committees, were circulated for many years. The Society was making false claims about this man, and Fred Franz himself knew that those were false claims, designed to make him look really impressive, and yet he never had those false claims removed from those publications.

There are many, many, many examples I and others could cite of blatant lies published in the Watchtower Society’s publications. Lies about what real scholars say about their bible, lies about what the early church fathers like Justin Martyr taught about the full deity of Christ (Justin Martyr explicitly taught that Jesus was God Almighty, the Society claims he taught that Jesus was a created angel), and on and on and on. What would be the point?

If people want to believe in the Watchtower Society, repeat its libels and blasphemies against historic Christianity, and spread that spiritual filth throughout our neighborhoods, well, let them do it. There are none so blind as those who WILL not see.

Good night & God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
BibleSteve said:
I understand there was a hearing. However, I question whether it was a fair hearing, or whether it was settled by Holy Spirit or with violence. My studies regarding Athanasius and how he imposed his views on others is concerning.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius

“Some modern historians suggest that the tactics of Athanasius were a significant factor in his success. He did not hesitate to back up his theological views with the use of force. In Alexandria, he assembled a group that could instigate a riot in the city if needed. It was an arrangement "built up and perpetuated by violence.”[12] Along with the standard method of excommunication he used beatings, intimidation, kidnapping and imprisonment to silence his theological opponents. Unsurprisingly, these tactics caused widespread distrust and led him to being tried many times for “bribery, theft, extortion, sacrilege, treason and murder.[13] While the charges rarely stuck, his reputation was a major factor in his multiple exiles from Alexandria. **He justified these tactics **with the argument that he was saving all future Christians from hell. Athanasius stubbornly refused to compromise his theological views by stating, “What is at stake is not just a theological theory but people’s salvation.”[14] He played a clear role in making the Constantinian shift a part of the theology of the church.”

Also, I’m concerned over information like this:

“Throughout most of his career, Athanasius would be haunted by allegations of defiling an altar, selling Church grain that had been meant to feed the poor for his own personal gain, and for suppressing dissent through violence and murder.[9] It cannot be claimed, beyond all doubt, if any or all of these specific allegations were true, but Athanasius almost certainly employed violence when it suited his cause or personal interests,[10] and his administration of the Alexandrian see has even been likened to an “ecclesiastical mafia”.[11] Serious questions also surround the reliability of his historical accounts. Athanasius seems to have severely misrepresented his own life and events, in order to warp the truth behind his own actions, and those of his enemies; especially when discussing his theological opponents, the Arians.”

Also, it seems curious this “Trinity” doctrine was demanded and enforced with the threat of death (burning at the stake) and eternal damnation from the time of Athanasius until the late 1600’s.

I wonder if this Trinity doctrine the result of direction by the Holy Spirit, or the violent iron will of a man bent on having his own way?

Lastly, I wonder about burning people at the stake for questioning the Trinity doctrine…

This seems outside what I’d expect for the leading of the Holy Spirit and Jesus command to “love your enemies and pray for them”?

Can you understand my concern over this?

Steve
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Steve,
By looking into history with twenty-first century lense it becomes difficult to see how Christians treated heretics/heterodox. Heresy was seen in midevil and ancient societies as killing, not just the mind of the person but moreover, killing the soul, so to lead someone into heresy was in effect to send them to eternal damnation. This is why so many societies in antiquity saw heresy as a direct threat to them as a population. John Calvin acted as did the Catholic church against who he deemed as heretical as did Zwingli during the reformation with violence.
And to say that the Catholic church is wrong because Athanasius acted against heretics, even though this type of behavior was common in that era (as it was with God in the Old Testament) is illogical. Your argument is like saying we should make null and void the Old Testament books e.g., Dueteronomy, Exodus, Leviticus, where God explicitly asks the Isrealites to kill those (heretics) who would threaten their survival as a people even though God directed them to do so. JW’s are passivists so it is difficult for them to see the killing of heretics in ancient times as “normal” for that time. Surely we Christians in our time condemn that type of behavior for the ends don’t justify the means.
 
BibleSteve said:
I’m glad you are cracking yourself up.

Let’s see if your statement “you’re alone there” with regard to John 1:1 is correct or false. Will you retract that statement as incorrect, or just immediately attack all these other translators?

“and the Logos was divine (a divine being)” (Robert Harvey, D.D., Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Westminster College, Cambridge, in The Historic Jesus in the New Testament, London, Student Movement Christian Press1931)

‘the word was a divine being.’ (Jesuit John L. McKenzie, 1965, wrote in his Dictionary of the Bible: "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated . . . ‘the word was a divine being.’)

“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott)

“and was himself a divine person” (Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768)
“and the word was a god” (Newcome, 1808)

“the Word was God’s” (Crellius,as quoted in The New Testament in an Improved Version)

“and the Word was a divine being.” (La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel,1928)

"the Logos was a god (John Samuel Thompson, The Montessoran; or The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, Baltimore; published by the translator, 1829)

“the Word was divine” (Goodspeed’s An American Translation, 1939)

“the word was a god.” (Revised Version-Improved and Corrected)
“and god-ly/-like] was the Word.” (Prof. Felix Just, S.J. - Loyola Marymount University)

“the Logos was divine” (Moffatt’s The Bible, 1972)

"the Word was God*[ftn. or Deity, Divine, which is a better translation, because the Greek definite article is not present before this Greek word] (International English Bible-Extreme New Testament, 2001)

“and the Word was a god” (Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. -The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from the Greek, 1694)

“[A]s a god the Command was" (Hermann Heinfetter, A Literal Translation of the New Testament,1863)

“The Word was a God” (Abner Kneeland-The New Testament in Greek and English, 1822)

“[A]nd a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” (Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885)

“the Word was a god” (Belsham N.T. 1809)

“And the logos was a god” (Leicester Ambrose, The Final Theology, Volume 1, New York, New York; M.B. Sawyer and Company, 1879)

"the Word was Deistic =The Word was Godly] (Charles A.L. Totten, The Gospel of History, 1900)

”[A]nd was a god" (J.N. Jannaris, Zeitschrift fur die Newtestameutlich Wissencraft, (German periodical) 1901, International Bible Translators N.T. 1981)

“[A] Divine Person.” (Samuel Clarke, M.A., D.D., rector of St. James, Westminster, A Paraphrase on the Gospel of John, London)

“a God” (Joseph Priestley, LL.D., F.R.S. [Philadelphia: Thomas Dobson, 1794], 37).)

“a God” (Lant Carpenter, LL.D (in Unitarianism in the Gospels [London: C. Stower, 1809], 156).)

“a god” (Andrews Norton, D.D. [Cambridge: Brown, Shattuck, and Company, 1833], 74).)

“a God” (Paul Wernle,(in The Beginnings of Christianity, vol. 1, The Rise of Religion [1903], 16).)

“and the [Marshal] [Word] was a god.” (21st Century Literal)
[A]nd (a) God was the word" (George William Horner, The Coptic Version of the New Testament, 1911)

“[A]nd the Word was of divine nature” (Ernest Findlay Scott, The Literature of the New Testament, New York, Columbia University Press, 1932)

[T]he Word was a God" (James L. Tomanec, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958)

“The Word had the same nature as God” (Philip Harner, JBL, Vol. 92, 1974)

“And a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word” (Siegfried Schulz, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1975)

“and godlike sort was the Logos” (Johannes Schneider, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1978)

“the Word was a divine Being” (Scholar’s Version-The Five Gospels, 1993)

"The Divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was” (J. Madsen, New Testament A Rendering , 1994)

“a God/god was the Logos/logos” (Jurgen Becker, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1979)

“The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being.” (Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907)
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So, do those whom you quote deny the Trinity? Theos en ho logos is translated properly “The Word was God.”
Besides if Jesus wasn’t God then why would Thomas say in John 20:28 "Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!?”
That type of idiomatic language was NOT used in that time, so you can’t say that Thomas was saying it in an idiomatic way.
 
Earlier Steve was “concerned” about Athanasius’ behavior and quoted Wikipedia. But what does Wikipedia have to say about the founder of the JW’s Charles Taze Russell?..

“During 1913, other matters of interest were addressed by John Jacob (J.J.) Ross, a minister from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada in his booklet entitled Some Facts about the Self-Styled “Pastor” Charles T. Russell. Russell had taken Ross to court on the charge of libel. **Ross attempted to show that when Russell was asked in trial if he possessed knowledge of the Greek alphabet he first claimed he did, then retracted the claim when cross-examined and shown the alphabet. Ross also claimed that Russell blatantly lied when asked if he was an ordained minister by answering “yes”. In answer to Ross’s accusations, Russell stated that he never claimed knowledge of the Greek language, merely the alphabet, **and that due to the Judge’s objection to the line of questioning, the book was taken away before he could even see it. He believed that his ordination was “of God” according to the biblical pattern, not requiring any denominational approval, and that his annual election as “Pastor” by over 1,200 congregations worldwide constituted him as “ordained”, or chosen, to be a minister of the gospel.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell

So, do we believe the ancient historical church who’s inception is Christ Himself? Or a new group who’s leader doesn’t even know the Greek language?
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
The Society’s leaders are habitual liars of the worst sort.

I’ll give you an example of a grotesque lie that they told, one of very many. In the 1950s WTS book JEHOVAHS WITNESSES IN THE DIVINE PURPOSE, there is a short description of Frederick W. Franz, the Society’s chief writer and later it’s President.
The statement is made that Fred Franz is a great scholar
who “carried away the honors of the University of Cincinnati.”
That’s a very flattering statement. In plainer English it means that Freddy graduated with High Honors from the University of Cincinnati. Well, the fact is that Frederick Franz did NOT graduate, not from the University of Cincinnati or any OTHER university for that matter. He had a couple of years of college and dropped out to serve at Bethel. He was not a scholar at all and not even a college graduate. Much less did he ever “carry away the honors of the University of Cincinnati.” Books that claim he did, and he was on the writing committees, were circulated for many years. The Society was making false claims about this man, and Fred Franz himself knew that those were false claims, designed to make him look really impressive, and yet he never had those false claims removed from those publications.
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Most JW-critics really don’t do the research on these claims they make. This claim calling Franz a liar is a perfect example… Here I show there was no lie. The only reason this is an issue is because some JW-critics are looking so diligently trying to find dirt where there isn’t.

The quote you mention is not found in the book “Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose” or any other Watchtower Tower Society book as you claim.

The quote is actually found in the personal memoirs of A. H. MacMillan called “Faith on the March”, on page 181, Published by Prentice-Hall, not the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

It is online here at: e-cepher.com/books/fotm/

So far, you are wrong on the book, and wrong on the publisher.

Let’s consider this “grotesque lie” you want to charge Franz with.

So, the author Macmillon writes a 293 page detailed book about his life as a JW and in 3 short sentences, he says some nice things about Franz:

“A scholar from his youth, Franz is a keen student of the Bible. Born in Convington, Kentucky, in 1893, he carried away the honors of the University of Cincinnati and was offered the privilege of going to Oxford or Cambridge in England under the Rhodes plan. Instead, in 1914, he entered the full-time ministry.”

And you are now wanting to fight over the phrase “carried the honors away” and say “The Society was making false claims about this man, and Fred Franz himself knew that those were false claims, designed to make him look really impressive”. Not hardly.

As I showed above, this information was not in any WTS publications at all. No claims where ever made by the Society on this. In fact, the first publication that ever mentioned it was in 1987.

What did Franz actually say about this? Here’s the 5/1/87 Watchtower Biography by Franz:

“My parents allowed me to go on with my educational career, so I entered the University of Cincinnati, taking the liberal arts course. I had now decided that I was going to become a Presbyterian preacher.To the continued study of Latin, I now added the study of Greek. What a blessing it was to study Bible Greek under Professor Arthur Kinsella! Under Dr. Joseph Harry, an author of some Greek works, I also studied the classical Greek. I knew that if I wanted to become a Presbyterian clergyman, I had to have a command of Bible Greek. So I furiously applied myself and got passing grades.”

Passing grades? Doesn’t sound like he’s doing any big boasting here… Let’s continue….

“In addition to studying Greek and Latin at school, I got interested in learning Spanish, which I found to be quite similar to Latin. Little did I realize at the time how much I would be able to use Spanish in my Christian ministry.”

“A high point in my academic life was when Dr. Lyon, the university’s president, announced to an assembly of students in the auditorium that I had been chosen to go to Ohio State University to take competitive examinations with others to win the prize of the Cecil Rhodes Scholarship, qualifying me for admission to Oxford University in England. One of the contestants outranked me with regard to field athletics, but because of my comparable grades, they wanted to send me, along with him, to Oxford University. I appreciated that I had measured up to the requirements for gaining the scholarship, and, normally, this would have been very gratifying.” (continued)
 
(continued)

Then, he goes onto describe how he learned about the Bible and decided to quit to go into the full time ministry…

“I have never regretted that, shortly before the announcements by the educational authorities regarding the outcome of the examinations for the Cecil Rhodes Scholarship, I wrote a letter to the authorities and advised them that I had lost interest in the Oxford University scholarship and that they should drop me from the list of contestants. This I did even though my professor in Greek at the university, Dr. Joseph Harry, informed me that I had been chosen to receive it.”

In 1993, someone named Mr. Russo wrote to try and verify this story. The Rhodes trust said they didn’t keep records of people who were offered, just those who are elected and actually enter. And so, they couldn’t help with this question. However, they corroberated his story that he “took and passed the qualifying exam”. (see letter below)

Anyone know how tough the Oxford Rhodes entry exam is to pass?

A letter dated January 13, 1993, from the American Secretary of The Rhodes Scholarship Trust, to one Frank Russo stated:
adam.com.au/bstett/JwFranzFred29.htm

Dear Mr. Russo
The only information kept by this Office of the Rhodes Scholarship Trust relating to Frederick W. Franz states that he took and passed the qualifying examination for the Rhodes Scholarship in 1913. We have no information whether or not he was offered a Rhodes Scholarship; we keep records only for those who are elected and enter Oxford University.
Yours sincerely,
David Alexander
American Secretary

Conclusions:

Franz told the truth. Critics simply want to attack and are digging looking for any little word or sentence in any publication they can use for calling JW’s liars.

This is completely unfair and shows really negative motive and intention on their part.
 
Bishopite said:
So, do we believe the ancient historical church who’s inception is Christ Himself? Or a new group who’s leader doesn’t even know the Greek language?
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I’m not sure measuring a person’s academic knowledge in Greek is what Jesus had in mind for us in determining who is acceptable to him. Nor are the degrees they have… Peter and John were “unlettered” and “ordinary”… Jesus said it was a matter of “doing” the will of his Father.

(Acts 4:13) Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus;

(Matthew 7:21-23) “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
 
BibleSteve said:
(Matthew 7:21-23) “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
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That quote from the Bible has nothing to do with Bishopites statement to you about Charles T. Russel. I don’t know why you quoted that.Precisely why did you quote this scripture to him? What has that got to do with what he posted about Russel not knowing greek? please elaborate.

I’d like to ask you one question, did you know that Russel sold “miracle wheat”? and that Rutherford was an alcoholic? He thought that some from the OT would come back and wear top
hats? i mean come on, you can’t possibly think these guys were
speaking for God when they make such silly claims can you?
The “miracle wheat” would make your crops go larger? and that some from the old testament would come back and wear top hats? good grief. what about that house that rutherford built in california for them too? pffft.

Can you please answer my original question about the scripture you quoted?
 
Revelation 1:8 (New International Version)

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Ah, Who is to come?

ah, Jesus
 
Here you go steve,

In San Diego, California in the 1920s, the Watch Tower Society built a house in California called Beth Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean ‘House of the Princes’. It was funded by specific donations for the stated purpose of “housing the prophets and godly men of old”, who were expected to be physically resurrected in 1925.[1] before Armageddon to help with Christ’s Millennial reign over the earth. Rutherford resided at the villa in his last years of ill health until his death in 1942. In 1948 the villa was sold. Soon after, the The Watchtower, November 1, 1950, pages 414-17 published a changed understanding of the aforementioned teaching to one where the “earthly forefathers of Jesus Christ would be resurrected after Armageddon.” [2]

After his death Rutherford’s burial was delayed for three and a half months due to legal proceedings arising from his desire to be buring at Beth Sarim. Consolation 1942 May 27 explained that “Judge Rutherford looked for the early triumph of “the King of the East”, Christ Jesus, now leading the host of heaven, and he desired to be buried at dawn facing the rising sun, in an isolated part of the ground which would be administered by the princes, who should return from their graves.”

from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Franklin_Rutherford

and a little piece on russel:

Russel’s wife sued him for divorce, see here:

In 1906, she sued him for divorce under the claim of mental cruelty as a direct result of their marriage agreement of perpetual celibacy. During the trial she indirectly alleged sexual misconduct by Charles with a Watch Tower stenographer whom they had long been caring for as a foster child. The Brooklyn Daily Eagle published what was claimed to be segments from the court transcript, which can be read by visiting this link. Maria Russell, as she was named in her obituary, died in St. Petersburg, Florida in August of 1938 from Hodgkin’s disease.

would you trust a guy who used pyramidology? i wouldn’t! see this:

Russell backed up some calculations using pyramidology. Following the view first taught by Christian writers, such as John Taylor, Charles Piazzi Smyth and Joseph Seiss, he believed the Great Pyramid of Giza was built by the Hebrews (associated to the Hyksos) under God’s direction, to be understood only in our day. He adopted and used the English phrase, referring to it as “the Bible in stone”. Based upon certain biblical texts, such as Isaiah 19:19,20, and others, the various ascending and descending passages were viewed as representing the fall of man, the provision of the Mosaic Law, the death of Christ, and the exultation of the saints in heaven. Calculations were made using the pattern of an inch per year. Dates such as 1874, 1914, and 1948 were purported to have been found through the study of this monument. A detailed review of his thoughts can be found in the appendix of “Thy Kingdom Come”.

see also this:

Russell believed that the land of Palestine belonged to the Jewish race, God was now calling them back to their land, and that they would be the center of earthly leadership under God’s Kingdom

from wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell
 
here is yet more for you steve:

On March 22, 1911, The Brooklyn Daily Eagle, a tabloid newspaper, began publishing articles accusing Russell of gaining profit from a strain of wheat named “Miracle Wheat” by its discoverer, K.B. Stoner of Fincastle, Virginia in 1903. Once other newspapers read this claim, many critics began to insist that Russell had deceived and defrauded many by selling this supposedly advanced strain of wheat for $60 a bushel, far above the average cost of wheat for the day. Throughout 1912 and 1913 the Eagle continued to report on this alleged fraud on Russell’s part. Russell sued the Eagle for libel, but lost.

In recent times, Russell has been accused of having had close ties with Freemasonry. Critics have not only attempted to connect him with any of several different rites of the Free Masons, but have also attempted to show that such associations are connected with occult practices. It has been pointed out that in later editions of his Studies in the Scriptures series a winged solar disk appears on the front cover, which some have claimed is an exclusively Masonic symbol. Another noted Masonic symbol -the slanted cross in a crown, exists on his burial pyramid -another questionable symbol, (-see “Pyramidology”, “Illuminati” and Russells’ “Chart from Divine plan of the ages”) in the Rosemont United Cemetary in Pittsburgh. Yet in his writings, Russell stated that membership in Freemasonry, Knights of Pythias, Theosophy, and other similar groups are unscriptural. He also denied having direct knowledge of Masonic practices and considered such things to be “grievous evils”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell
 
Steve, you seem like a fiarly open minded guy. have a look at these from the CAF library, and tell us what you think.

The WTS maintains that it is God’s reliable mouthpiece to the nations, and it claims to be God’s inspired prophet (WT, 4-1-1972, 197)—and yet its prophecies have repeatedly proven to be false. The only conclusion to be drawn is that the WTS is to be rejected as a false prophet.

the WTS predicted the following:

1889 "The ‘battle of the great day of God almighty’ (Rev 16:14) which will end in AD 1914 . . . " (Studies, Vol. 2, 1908 edition, 101).
1891 “With the end of AD 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy” (Studies, Vol. 3, 153).
1894 “The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble” (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605 and 1677).
1897 “Our Lord is now present, since October 1874 AD” (Studies, Vol. 4, 1897 edition, 621).
1916 “The six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ’s reign began in 1873” (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword).
1917 “Scriptures . . . prove that the Lord’s Second Advent occurred in the fall of 1874” (Studies, Vol. 7, 68).
1918 “Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89).
1922 “The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the scriptures than 1914” (WT, 9-1-1922, 262).
1923 “1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge” (WT, 4-1-1923, 106).
1925 “The year of 1925 is here. . . . Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year” (WT, 1-1-1925, 3).
1931 “There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah’s faithful ones on earth concerning the dates 1914, 1918, & 1925 . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates” (Vindication, 388, 389).
1939 “The disaster of Armageddon is just ahead” (Salvation, 361).
1941 “Armageddon is surely near . . . soon . . . within a few years” (Children, 10).
1946 “Armageddon . . . should come sometime before 1972” (They Have Found a Faith, 44).
1966 “Six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E” (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 29).
1968 “The end of the six thousand years of man’s history in the fall of 1975 is not tentative, but is accepted as a certain date” (WT, 1-1-1968, 271).

catholic.com/library/Stumpers_for_Jehovah_Witnesse.asp

now how can one trust the society to be the “mouthpiece for God”
when it made false predictions over and over and over again? i wouldn’t trust someone or some organization that lies and makes false predictions, neither would anyone else who cared to do their research.

If your as fair minded as i think you are, you’ll look this over and tell us why the society made these claims and why they changed their doctrine. remember, truth does not change, but the society does, and there is no truth in them because they are not of God.
 
Is Hell Real or Not?

The WTS also maintains that everlasting punishment is a myth and a lie invented by Satan. Hell is merely mankind’s common grave, and is definitely not a fiery torture, according to them.

According to Scripture, if one is in hell, “he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur . . . the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest” (Rev. 14:11). This is an “everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). Jesus tells his listeners of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man dies, and is “existing in torment . . . he sees . . . calls out . . . ‘I am in anguish in this blazing fire’” (Luke 16:19-31). As a further illustration, Jesus stated that hell is likened to Gehenna. This “Valley of Hinnom” was located southeast of Jerusalem, and was used as a garbage dump where trash and waste were continuously burned day and night in a large fire. Jesus informs the listeners that hell is like this, “where the maggot does not die, and fire is not put out” (Mark 9:42-48). It is the place where the wicked are sent, and from this “everlasting fire” (Matt. 18:8) will come “weeping and the gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12). Now if hell were “a place of rest in hope” as the WTS teaches, then it is odd that Jesus would choose such contradictory illustrations to convey this. Lastly, Revelation 20 calls hell a “pool of fire . . . [where] they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever”—all who are not in the book of life. So, if one’s name is in the book of life, one enters heaven (Rev. 21:27). If it not in the book, then a literal hell awaits.

catholic.com/library/Stumpers_for_Jehovah_Witnesse.asp
 
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