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jville14
Guest
John 20:28-29 NWT
28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”
This is from the Watch Tower Societies website.
28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”
This is from the Watch Tower Societies website.
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jville14
Guest
Where does it say Jesus is the arch-angel Michael?
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mikeledes
Guest
I’m also waiting for a response to this post.Vewy Intwesting.
First of all, Hebrews identified Jesus as the subject of the Psalm. And the subject of that Psalm is God. Secondly, God alone created everything:
Isaiah 44:24
24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?
Here God explicitly states that he created by Himself. There is no mention of an assistant creator. He even asks “Who was with me?” The obvious answer is no one. However, according to Jehovah’s Witness theology, the angel named Michael was there.
Thirdly, you did not respond to the verse from Ephesians.
God Bless,
Michael
:coffeeread:
God Bless,
Michael
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qui_est_ce
Guest
This is a review of a book that reviews the NWT tranlation. The quote (below) from the review makes me wonder why Steve refers us to it. I’m not sure of the qualifications. I’ll have to check on this persons qualifications. I find it hard to believe there are thousands of people in the US who could translate the Bible because very few people know Aramaic, in addition to ancient Hebrew, and ancient Greek. This is what caused the “brothers of Jesus” controversy. Aramaic has no word for brother. This is something Protestants don’t recognize. And they are translating the Bible.
The Watch Tower Society will want to selectively quote BeDuhn’s book because he compliments portions of the New World Translation. On the other hand, considering what Truth in Translation also says about the New World Translation in areas of its weakness, the Watch Tower Society will need to proceed cautiously when quoting Truth in Translation. BeDuhn devoted an entire appendix (The Use of “Jehovah”) to the 237 occurrences of “Jehovah” in the New World Translation Greek Scriptures (New Testament). In that appendix he essentially denies the most prominent feature of the New World Translation’s Greek Scriptures when he disputes the appropriateness of using Jehovah in the New Testament. We will consider that subject in the Appendix comments
The Watch Tower Society will want to selectively quote BeDuhn’s book because he compliments portions of the New World Translation. On the other hand, considering what Truth in Translation also says about the New World Translation in areas of its weakness, the Watch Tower Society will need to proceed cautiously when quoting Truth in Translation. BeDuhn devoted an entire appendix (The Use of “Jehovah”) to the 237 occurrences of “Jehovah” in the New World Translation Greek Scriptures (New Testament). In that appendix he essentially denies the most prominent feature of the New World Translation’s Greek Scriptures when he disputes the appropriateness of using Jehovah in the New Testament. We will consider that subject in the Appendix comments
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mikeledes
Guest
In addition to this verse:
Isaiah 44:24
**24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? **
Isaiah 45:12
12 I myself have made the earth and have created even man upon it. I—my own hands have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of them I have commanded.
God denies having any partners in the creation of the world and emphasizes that he created the world with his own “hands.” This contradicts the JW notion that Jesus was a created partner in creation.
God Bless,
Michael
Isaiah 44:24
**24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? **
Isaiah 45:12
12 I myself have made the earth and have created even man upon it. I—my own hands have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of them I have commanded.
God denies having any partners in the creation of the world and emphasizes that he created the world with his own “hands.” This contradicts the JW notion that Jesus was a created partner in creation.
God Bless,
Michael
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BibleSteve
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Mike,
Yes, Jehovah made statements he was the only Creator, however, you should also note he said the same thing about being the only Savior. And then the Bible goes on to show him sending other people as “saviors”… How are we to understand him saying he’s the “only” savior? I view it that he takes full credit for the role, but uses others, or delegates to others to achieve that for him. Jehovah used the same method in Creation. He takes full credit but achieved this through Jesus Christ who in turn gives credit to his Father.
(Colossians 1:15-17) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created** through him and for him**. 17 Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made to exist,
(Revelation 3:14) “And to the angel of the congregation in La•o•di•ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness,** the beginning of the creation **by God,
Note this discussion on him being the “only” savior.
A Savior is one who preserves or delivers from danger or destruction. Jehovah is identified as the principal Savior, the only Source of deliverance. (Isa 43:11; 45:21) He was the Savior and Deliverer of Israel, time and again. (Ps 106:8, 10, 21; Isa 43:3; 45:15; Jer 14:8) He saved not only the nation but also individuals who served him. (2Sa 22:1-3) Often his salvation was through men raised up by him as saviors. (Ne 9:27) During the period of the Judges, these special saviors were divinely selected and empowered to deliver Israel from foreign oppression. (Jg 2:16; 3:9, 15) While the judge lived, he served to keep Israel in the right way, and this brought them relief from their enemies. (Jg 2:18) When Jesus was on earth, Jehovah was his Savior, supporting and strengthening him to maintain integrity through his strenuous trials.—Heb 5:7; Ps 28:8.
Along with his role as Savior, Jehovah is also the “Repurchaser.” (Isa 49:26; 60:16) In the past he redeemed his people Israel from captivity. In delivering Christians from sin’s bondage, he does the repurchasing through his Son Jesus Christ (1Jo 4:14), Jehovah’s provision for salvation, who is therefore exalted as “Chief Agent and Savior.” (Ac 5:31) Accordingly, Jesus Christ can rightly be called “our Savior,” even though he performs the salvation as the agent of Jehovah. (Tit 1:4; 2Pe 1:11) The name Jesus, given to God’s Son by angelic direction, means “Jehovah Is Salvation,” for, said the angel, “he will save his people from their sins.” (Mt 1:21; Lu 1:31) This name points out that Jehovah is the Source of salvation, accomplished through Jesus. For this reason we find the Father and the Son spoken of together in connection with salvation.—Tit 2:11-13; 3:4-6.
Salvation is provided by Jehovah through Jesus Christ for “all sorts of men.” (1Ti 4:10) He saves them from sin and death (Ro 8:2), from Babylon the Great (Re 18:2, 4), from this world under Satan’s control (Joh 17:16; Col 1:13), and from destruction and everlasting death (Re 7:14-17; 21:3, 4). “A great crowd” is shown at Revelation 7:9, 10 attributing salvation to God and to the Lamb.
The ransom sacrifice is the basis for salvation, and as King and everlasting High Priest, Christ Jesus has the authority and power “to save completely those who are approaching God through him.” (Heb 7:23-25; Re 19:16) He is “a savior of this body,” the congregation of his anointed followers, and also of all who exercise faith in him.—Eph 5:23; 1Jo 4:14; Joh 3:16, 17.
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DobleGG
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BibleSteve -
Can the very same response you just gave above be supported using the original bible as put together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Or does your explanation only conform to what is written in the NWT?
Can the very same response you just gave above be supported using the original bible as put together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Or does your explanation only conform to what is written in the NWT?
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BibleSteve
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The book, written by a non JW, is a critical look at many popular translations, along with the NWT. The author gives the pro’s and con’s for each translation.
This biggest disagreement with the NWT was the inclusion of the Divine Name in the NT.
However, he does an exhaustive review of all the other typical complaints about the NWT and finds the NWT is actually one of the most accurate translations on these other controversial verses where the NWT is typically charged with making changes.
I don’t just post links that are 100% pro-JW. The purpose of the link is to bring balance to all the charges that JW’s change the Bible to suit their doctrine.
This non-JW author verifies there is very good reason to translate these tough verses as JW’s do.
Steve
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BibleSteve
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I believe if you check multiple, non-JW translations, you’ll see the point is still valid… Please check it out and tell me what you find.
Steve
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BibleSteve
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The Watchtower comments there is no specific scripture that says that, however, they provide an “implied” argument, that various scriptures point to Jesus.
It is a subjective conclusion. I have provided the reasoning in another thread under Jesus/Michael Archangel… please do a search.
I don’t debate things like this as they are subjective vs. objective.
Steve
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DobleGG
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I believe you see where I’m going with this item. The point I’m making is that as a Catholic I don’t believe the NWT, when properly interpreted, can support the Catholic belief that Jesus is God. By the same token the Catholic Bible cannot support and does not teach that Jesus is just “a god” and therefore not God.
In other words, neither side is playing on the same field. Accordingly, there can be no agreement with regards to this discussion or any other discussion on which Catholics and JW’s differ.
In other words, neither side is playing on the same field. Accordingly, there can be no agreement with regards to this discussion or any other discussion on which Catholics and JW’s differ.
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BibleSteve
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The argument seems reasonable at first glance. However, looking just a little deeper we see that Jesus authorized his apostles to forgive sin also. Certainly, when they forgave sin, it didn’t make them Jehovah, did it? Thus, the argument that Jesus **MUST **be God, because we forgave sin, falls apart.
(John 20:19-23) Therefore, when it was late on that day, the first of the week, and, although the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May YOU have peace.” 20And after he said this he showed them both his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord. 21Jesus, therefore, said to them again: “May YOU have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending YOU.” 22*And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If YOU forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if YOU retain those of any persons, they stand retained.”
Just as Jesus authorized his apostles to forgive sin, Jesus had received that same authorization from his Father, Jehovah God…
(Mark 2:7-11) “Why is this man talking in this manner? He is blaspheming. Who can forgive sins except one, God?” 8But Jesus, having discerned immediately by his spirit that they were reasoning that way in themselves, said to them: “Why are YOU reasoning these things in YOUR hearts? 9Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and pick up your cot and walk’? 10*But in order for YOU men to know that the Son of man has authority to forgive sins upon the earth,”—he said to the paralytic: 11 “I say to you, Get up, pick up your cot, and go to your home.”
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BibleSteve
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If you look up the scriptures in your Catholic Bible, you will see that YHWH says he is the only Savior. However, we see he sent people to do his saving work for him and they were called saviors.
The point is that the Bible often says, YHWH is the “only” person that does something and then we find other occurances where other people are called by the exact same title.
Check it out in your own Bible.
Steve
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DobleGG
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If Jesus is only “a god” how is he able to confer Jehovah God’s Holy Spirit upon the apostles? Only Jehovah God can confer his Holy Spirit upon others. How does Jesus have power over Jehovah God’s Spirit to do with it what he wills?
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BibleSteve
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It’s because Jehovah God authorized him to do so. The Apostles recieved similar authorization and confered the Holy Spirit on others:
(Acts 8:14-19) When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Sa·mar′i·a had accepted the word of God, they dispatched Peter and John to them; 15and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit. 16For it had not yet fallen upon any one of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then they went laying their hands upon them, and they began to receive holy spirit. 18Now when Simon saw that through the laying on of the hands of the apostles the spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying: “Give me also this authority, that anyone upon whom I lay my hands may receive holy spirit.”
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BibleSteve
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The NWT isn’t the only translation that observes there is an ambiguity in translating these two scriptures and the use of “the”
Check out this link:
tetragrammaton.org/truthintrans.htm
Specifically, the section under Chapter 8. Other non-JW translations have noted this, and included it as an “alternative option”
Steve
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BibleSteve
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b_justb
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Curriculum Vitae of Jason david Beduhn
He is obviously deeply interested in Manichaeism. I would not be suprised if it influences his thinking. An impressive Curriculum Vitae to be sure.
Here is Dr.J.Beduhn and R.Hommel: A Discussion upon the translation of John 1:1c. Where Hommel takes exception to Beduhn’s translation that favors the NWT (it’s looooooooong).
Here is Ben Rast’s article “The New World Translation: The Watchtower Society’s Corrupt Bible” not a very flattering title but it is the title. As you might guess he isn’t sympathetic to the translation.)
The reality is there are very few non-JW supporters of the NWT, but there are a notable few to include Jewish scholars. For ever pro-NWT “scholar” there are at least 20 against with lengthy well thought out, researched, and referenced reasons.
He is obviously deeply interested in Manichaeism. I would not be suprised if it influences his thinking. An impressive Curriculum Vitae to be sure.
Here is Dr.J.Beduhn and R.Hommel: A Discussion upon the translation of John 1:1c. Where Hommel takes exception to Beduhn’s translation that favors the NWT (it’s looooooooong).
Here is Ben Rast’s article “The New World Translation: The Watchtower Society’s Corrupt Bible” not a very flattering title but it is the title. As you might guess he isn’t sympathetic to the translation.)
The reality is there are very few non-JW supporters of the NWT, but there are a notable few to include Jewish scholars. For ever pro-NWT “scholar” there are at least 20 against with lengthy well thought out, researched, and referenced reasons.
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BibleSteve
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Hi Mike,
You had asked for comment about Eph 4:7
There are several examples of OT texts (regarding Jehovah), that are quoted by NT writers when referring to Jesus. This is because Jehovah sent Jesus as his representative to speak for him.
(Hebrews 1:1-2) God who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2*has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.
Eph 4:7, along with John 1:23 (Isa 40:3), Heb 1:10-12 (Psa 102:25-27) are examples of this.
Why does John 1:23 quote Isaiah 40:3 and apply it to what John the Baptizer did in preparing the way for Jesus Christ, when Isaiah 40:3 is clearly discussing preparing the way before Jehovah? Because Jesus represented his Father. He came in his Father’s name and had the assurance that his Father was always with him because he did the things pleasing to his Father.—John 5:43; 8:29.
Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one through whom God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.) It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.—Luke 11:31.
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