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UnworthySoul
Guest
So I heard a Jehovah’s Witness say that they believe Jesus is also the Archangel Michael, but totally could not explain it. Any here care to try and explain that one? Boggles my mind.
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At_His_Feet
Guest
Are you saying that it was the Witness who could not explain it? Then so be it. There are many good and wonderful people among the Witnesses, but they have teachings that are difficult to support from the Bible. Sometimes they themselves don’t realize this until they are asked to do so; even then it’s hard.
That Jesus is not an angel is shown in the first chapter of Hebrews:
Hebrews 1:5-6 For to which of the angels did he ever say “You are my son, today I have begotten you?” And again , “I will be a father to Him, and He shall be a Son to me”? And when again he brings the firstborn into the world, He says, " And let all the angels of God worship Him."
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Hebrews 1:13 **But to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”?
That Jesus is not an angel is shown in the first chapter of Hebrews:
Hebrews 1:5-6 For to which of the angels did he ever say “You are my son, today I have begotten you?” And again , “I will be a father to Him, and He shall be a Son to me”? And when again he brings the firstborn into the world, He says, " And let all the angels of God worship Him."
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Hebrews 1:13 **But to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”?
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jschwehm
Guest
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space_ghost
Guest
…here’s a real good link:thumbsup:
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0241.html
http://www.thenewagesite.com/jjdewey/articles/images/jehovah.jpg
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0241.html
http://www.thenewagesite.com/jjdewey/articles/images/jehovah.jpg
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UnworthySoul
Guest
No no, you guys are misunderstanding me here, the JW made the claim but could not explain it. It is not a belief I hold. I was just amazed that someone believed that as it seemed so out there. I was doubly amazed that they believed it but couldn’t explain why they did. I was asking if anyone here knew why they made the claim. Thanks for your replies!
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At_His_Feet
Guest
OK, Unworthy Soul; I get it. That’s what I thought.
They have a line of reasoning, but some observers speculate that it is out of a need to associate Jesus’ non-Trinitarian identity (as they see it) with somebody; and well, there is Michael the Archangel.
Taking into account the scriptures that I posted above, though, should send up red flags anytime that Jesus is called an angel.
They have a line of reasoning, but some observers speculate that it is out of a need to associate Jesus’ non-Trinitarian identity (as they see it) with somebody; and well, there is Michael the Archangel.
Taking into account the scriptures that I posted above, though, should send up red flags anytime that Jesus is called an angel.
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Fidelis
Guest
From what I gather one of their justifications is how they interpret 1 Thes 4:16:
Of course this breaks down since to call something “the” doesn’t mean there can’t be another of the same thing. For example to refer the Forest Service mascot as “Smokey *the * Bear” doesn’t imply that there are no other bears.
Now as to why, one can only guess it is because they have a pre-supposition that Jesus is not God and here’s how you “prove” it.
Their reasoning is this: they identify both “the Lord” and the “archangel” in this verse as the same person. They further believe that since Michael is the only one in the Bible identified as an archangel (Jude 1:9), there are no others: he’s the only one. Ergo, Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Sounds dopey, but there you go. :whacky:
Of course this breaks down since to call something “the” doesn’t mean there can’t be another of the same thing. For example to refer the Forest Service mascot as “Smokey *the * Bear” doesn’t imply that there are no other bears.
Now as to why, one can only guess it is because they have a pre-supposition that Jesus is not God and here’s how you “prove” it.
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UnworthySoul
Guest
They also claim to have proof of this loopy doctrine in the
Book of Revelation. But of course, when I asked where this came from, the JW couldn’t say.
Book of Revelation. But of course, when I asked where this came from, the JW couldn’t say.
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Joysong
Guest
Dear Jschwehm,
Thank you for posting that link. I read one of the articles which answered an old question I had about why my dialog with two of them failed. When I pointed out a discrepancy the JW’s could not answer, they replied as the article stated. Apparently, they are all trained identically. The article explains beautifully that they accept no teaching from “outsiders,” since they are not qualified or appointed to interpret God’s word — only their own elders.
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JW Article:
Also, the JW may say that he needs to show this to an elder in his congregation. If this happens it is not unusual for the JW never to return to speak to you. However, this is okay because you have planted a seed that over time can take root.
Carole**
Thank you for posting that link. I read one of the articles which answered an old question I had about why my dialog with two of them failed. When I pointed out a discrepancy the JW’s could not answer, they replied as the article stated. Apparently, they are all trained identically. The article explains beautifully that they accept no teaching from “outsiders,” since they are not qualified or appointed to interpret God’s word — only their own elders.
**
JW Article:
Also, the JW may say that he needs to show this to an elder in his congregation. If this happens it is not unusual for the JW never to return to speak to you. However, this is okay because you have planted a seed that over time can take root.
Carole**
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carol_marie
Guest
At His Feet:
CM
Excellent verses that I will use the next time they come to my door! Welcome to the forums.
CM
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mj330
Guest
At His Feet:
Isaiah 42:8 “I am the Lord, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor my praise to carved images.”; and
**John 17:5 **“And now Father, glorify Me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
May I add that Jesus Himself claims that He is God by a comparison of these two verses:
Isaiah 42:8 “I am the Lord, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor my praise to carved images.”; and
**John 17:5 **“And now Father, glorify Me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
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JenMM
Guest
My thoughts on this are:
As other respondents have pointed out, Hebrews 1 is a detailed refutation of Jesus being the Archangel Michael or any other angel. They call him an angel as they see angels as also being ‘gods’ and see Jesus as being a ‘god’.
Daniel 12:1 - At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people. The JWs say this refers to jesus. However Daniel 10: 13,20, makes it clear that Michael is the Angel Guardian of the nation of Israel, just as Persian and Greece have the Angel Guardians of their nation. Revelation 2-3 show that each Christian community has an Angel Guardian (although some commentators say this refers to the bishop), and we all have our own angel guardians (Psalm 91:11, Matt 18:10)
Revelation 12:7-10 - again, the JWs again make this refer to Jesus for some reason. They mention Michael’s name - who is like (compared with God)? Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the likeness of God’s glory, the very imprint of his being. So Jesus is compared with God.
The other mention of Michael comes in Jude 9, where he is disputing with the devil over the body of Moses (from *The Assumption of Moses. *The later account has Michael going to bury Mose’s body but was challenged by the devil). Note that Michael says ‘May the Lord rebuke you.’ he cannot rebuke the devil in his own authority, as Jesus always does (cf Matt 17:18). Jude’s point is that even if an archangel refrained from rebuking even the devil, how wrong it is for mere human beings to revile glorious beings (angels). Jesus is far greater than an archangel, with the power to rebuke the devil by his own authority. He has no need to pray to God to rebuke the devil, because he can do it himself!
It is all a ploy by the JWs to avoid accepting the divinity of Christ.
As other respondents have pointed out, Hebrews 1 is a detailed refutation of Jesus being the Archangel Michael or any other angel. They call him an angel as they see angels as also being ‘gods’ and see Jesus as being a ‘god’.
Daniel 12:1 - At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people. The JWs say this refers to jesus. However Daniel 10: 13,20, makes it clear that Michael is the Angel Guardian of the nation of Israel, just as Persian and Greece have the Angel Guardians of their nation. Revelation 2-3 show that each Christian community has an Angel Guardian (although some commentators say this refers to the bishop), and we all have our own angel guardians (Psalm 91:11, Matt 18:10)
Revelation 12:7-10 - again, the JWs again make this refer to Jesus for some reason. They mention Michael’s name - who is like (compared with God)? Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the likeness of God’s glory, the very imprint of his being. So Jesus is compared with God.
The other mention of Michael comes in Jude 9, where he is disputing with the devil over the body of Moses (from *The Assumption of Moses. *The later account has Michael going to bury Mose’s body but was challenged by the devil). Note that Michael says ‘May the Lord rebuke you.’ he cannot rebuke the devil in his own authority, as Jesus always does (cf Matt 17:18). Jude’s point is that even if an archangel refrained from rebuking even the devil, how wrong it is for mere human beings to revile glorious beings (angels). Jesus is far greater than an archangel, with the power to rebuke the devil by his own authority. He has no need to pray to God to rebuke the devil, because he can do it himself!
It is all a ploy by the JWs to avoid accepting the divinity of Christ.
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Topher
Guest
This is very simple. The book of Hebrews says that Christ is above the angels and worshiped by the angels. Therefore he cannot be St. Michael who is an angel.
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b_justb
Guest
Why don’t we as Catholic’s (as applicable) just understand the complete wobble headed nature of anything the JW’s put out? Every swinging tenant they have is just complete and utter nonsense. I speak as one who came out it more than 20 years ago and then struggled through the various angst related with dealing with my parents that were and are still involved.
-B.
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MEP
Guest
I find this really interesting. Does anybody here realize that Mormons believe that Adam is the Archangel Michael? (they also claim scriptural evidence in Revelation, but mostly it comes from the Pearl of Great Price)
What is it about Michael that catches the imaginations of people? Is there some particularly vague scripture reference or something that leads people to assign undue importance to him?
What is it about Michael that catches the imaginations of people? Is there some particularly vague scripture reference or something that leads people to assign undue importance to him?
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Hi, simply put the micheal doctrine is a hangover from the adventist movement. The adventist movement gave us Seventh day adventism, Armstrongism, Watchtower and so on.
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TobyLue
Guest
This is so true. My wife has a nephew who converted to JW’s because of his girlfriend, now wife. We had a discussion about 10 years ago. They started attacking the Rosary and what the bible says about repetitive prayers. I explains that Jesus was talking about prayers in vain. My wife’s nephew then said that he would have to check on it and would come back the next day with his bible and we would discuss it again. I’m still waiting for him. He and his wife come to see my m-i-law once every two years or so and just stay for a few mins but no longer discuss issues.
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At_His_Feet
Guest
gracelife: Interestingly, this is one of the “truths” that has “changed” over the years. The Watchtower-1879-November-11,-page 48 says:
"Hence it is said, “Let all the angels of God worship him;” [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] "
To verify, go here:
agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/zwt0648.htm
Then look at “r48 The Name of Jesus.” or click below
agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r48.htm
"Hence it is said, “Let all the angels of God worship him;” [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] "
To verify, go here:
agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/zwt0648.htm
Then look at “r48 The Name of Jesus.” or click below
agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r48.htm
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sara888
Guest
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Mep said:
I find this really interesting. Does anybody here realize that Mormons believe that Adam is the Archangel Michael? (they also claim scriptural evidence in Revelation, but mostly it comes from the Pearl of Great Price)
Sara says:
Yes its absurd, beyond bizzare, the only evidence they have to back their claims is their false prophet Joseph Smith with his distorted and twisted teachings. They have no biblical evidence.
What is it about Michael that catches the imaginations of people? Is there some particularly vague scripture reference or something that leads people to assign undue importance to him?
Sara says:
I concur, I see no where in scripture any reference to such scandal and misrepresentation of the gospels with regard to St Michael the ARCHANGEL and the teachings of Christ.
To reiterate, its Absurd.! beyond bizzare.
Sara**
Mep said:
I find this really interesting. Does anybody here realize that Mormons believe that Adam is the Archangel Michael? (they also claim scriptural evidence in Revelation, but mostly it comes from the Pearl of Great Price)
Sara says:
Yes its absurd, beyond bizzare, the only evidence they have to back their claims is their false prophet Joseph Smith with his distorted and twisted teachings. They have no biblical evidence.
What is it about Michael that catches the imaginations of people? Is there some particularly vague scripture reference or something that leads people to assign undue importance to him?
Sara says:
I concur, I see no where in scripture any reference to such scandal and misrepresentation of the gospels with regard to St Michael the ARCHANGEL and the teachings of Christ.
To reiterate, its Absurd.! beyond bizzare.
Sara**
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lurdes
Guest
Hi unworthysoul,up to where I know from my older sister who is a JW they belive this becuase Michael the archangel is becuse in the bible said he is the one who cast satan from heaven they also belive that Michael was made frist and after God created avrything else throgh him when Michael came to earth he got a new body who we know like Jesus and that when Jesus died God destroyed his body and he rise with a new look after going to heaven he changed to Michael the Archangel again.
Now don’t ask me how they come up with this becuase is not in the bible which they claim they only belive in the bible, my sister couldn’t explain it to me she only told me that I need it to take some studies wiht the JW to understand, I said no thanks I’m in the true universal Church of the real Jesus. I hope I have answer you question
your sister in Christ, Lurdes
UnworthySoul:
Now don’t ask me how they come up with this becuase is not in the bible which they claim they only belive in the bible, my sister couldn’t explain it to me she only told me that I need it to take some studies wiht the JW to understand, I said no thanks I’m in the true universal Church of the real Jesus. I hope I have answer you question
your sister in Christ, Lurdes
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