karma

[Montalban]

Karma is false, and it is unmerciful.

From memory of objections to it made by Whelton, and by Fr. Seraphim Rose, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, on both counts

There’s an extensive article here on false religions - from an Orthodox standpoint

 

[rossum]

was just wondering what you guys think about karma.

From the Buddhist point of view it is just that your actions have consequences. If you don’t want the consequences than don’t do the actions.Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

(Dhammapada 1 vv 1-2)

but isnt our god a forgiving god??

In Buddhism there is no sin so there cannot be forgiveness of sin either. This means that Buddhists need to be careful of what they are doing all the time.

rossum

 

[paarsurrey]

hi there…
was just wondering what you guys think about karma.
thanks… am a little confuse
i know that you reap what you sow, but isnt our god a forgiving god??

Hi

This was the fourth question asked from the representatives of different religions in an inter-religious conference held in 1896. The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 answered this question, for which please access alislam.org/books/philosophy/4q1.html
This would be useful for preparation of your thesis, I think.

I give hereunder an excerpt for benefit of the members here:

The Operation of the Practical Ordinances of the Law in this Life and the Next

We have already stated that the effect of the true and perfect Divine law upon man’s heart in this life is that it lifts him from a savage Condition and converts him into a human being, and thereafter invests him with high morals, and finally makes him godly. One of the effects of the practical ordinances of the law is that a person who follows the true law progressively recognises the rights of his fellow beings and exercises his faculties of equity, and benevolence and true sympathy, on their proper occasions.

Such a one shares with his fellow beings, according to their respective ranks, the bounties with which God has favoured him, like knowledge, understanding, wealth and means of comfort. He sheds his light like the sun upon the whole of mankind, and like the moon, acquiring light from God conveys it to others. Being illumined like the day he shows the paths of virtue and goodness to others, and like the night he covers up their weaknesses and provides comfort for those who are weary.

Like the sky he provides shelter under his shade for everyone who is in need, and pours down the rain of grace at its proper time. Like the earth, out of utter humility. He becomes like a floor for everyone’s comfort and gathers them close to afford them security, and offers them diverse types of spiritual fruits. Thus, he who adheres to the perfect law discharges his obligations to God and to his fellow creatures to the utmost. He loses himself in God and becomes a true servant of His creatures. This is the effect of the practical ordinances of the law on his life here.

Their effect in the hereafter is that a person who adheres to them will observe his spiritual relationship with God as a manifest reality. The service that he rendered to God’s creatures out of his love for Gods which was stimulated by his faith, and his yearning for righteous action, will be manifested to him as the trees and rivers of paradise.

In this context God Almighty has said: We call to witness the sun and its light; and We call to witness the moon when it follows the sun and obtains its light from it and conveys it to people; and We call to witness the day when it manifests the light of the sun and shows up the paths; and We call to witness the night when it darkens and envelops everything within itself; and We call to witness the heaven and the purpose for which it has been created; and We call to witness the earth and the purpose for which it has been spread out like a floor; and We call to witness the human soul and its quality which makes it equal to all these other things; that is to say all those qualities which are found dispersed among the other bodies that have been mentioned are all comprehended in the soul of the perfect man.

As these bodies serve man in diverse ways, the perfect man performs all that service by himself. Then He says: That one will be delivered from death and will attain salvation who purifies his soul, that is to say, who serves God’s creatures out of his devotion to God like the sun and the moon and the earth.
It should be kept in mind that in this context life means life eternal, which will be bestowed upon perfect man.

This is an indication that the fruit of conforming to the practical ordinances of the law will be the eternal life of the next world, which will be sustained for ever by the vision of God. Then it is said that he who corrupts his soul and does not acquire the qualities for which he was bestowed appropriate capacities and goes back after spending an unclean life, shall be ruined and shall despair of life eternal.

Unquote

Thanks

 

[Montalban]

In Buddhism there is no sin so there cannot be forgiveness of sin either. This means that Buddhists need to be careful of what they are doing all the time.

rossum

SO how do you end up regressing (or not progressing)- if there’s no sin?

 

[notself]

SO how do you end up regressing (or not progressing)- if there’s no sin?

There are skillful and unskillful volitional actions which respectively have good and bad results.

 

[Montalban]

There are skillful and unskillful volitional actions which respectively have good and bad results.

Seems like you’re just trying to re-label something that’s sinful

 

[notself]

Seems like you’re just trying to re-label something that’s sinful

How can you have sin without a God to sin against?

The term skillful and unskillful is appropriate to Buddhist philosophy of training. One develops a skill through repetition. The goal is to develop one’s skill in moral action through repetition the way an athlete develops skill in his or her field through effort, practice and analysis of action.

 

[Montalban]

How can you have sin without a God to sin against?

Easy. You just rebadge ita s you did in your previous post

The term skillful and unskillful is appropriate to Buddhist philosophy of training. One develops a skill through repetition. The goal is to develop one’s skill in moral action through repetition the way an athlete develops skill in his or her field through effort, practice and analysis of action.

Well, it’s simply to re-badge sin

 

[notself]

Easy. You just rebadge ita s you did in your previous post

Well, it’s simply to re-badge sin

 

[Montalban]

That’s all you seem to be doing; sin has negative consequnces. Your version does.

Unless there’s more detail that makes a difference.

 

[notself]

That’s all you seem to be doing; sin has negative consequnces. Your version does.

Unless there’s more detail that makes a difference.

As I understand the Catholic belief. Sin is a stain on the soul. This stain can be removed by the grace of God through the sacrament and ritual of confession and penance.

Do I have a correct understanding?

 

[Montalban]

As I understand the Catholic belief. Sin is a stain on the soul. This stain can be removed by the grace of God through the sacrament and ritual of confession and penance.

Do I have a correct understanding?

I don’t know. Hopefully some Catholic will answer that.

Orthodox believe sin is a means of separating, or defying God which has consequences, logically enough, separating oneself from God.

From what I see about Karma is that it too is an action of separation - from one’s true path.

And, it has consequences.

What makes for ‘bad’ consequences for you is as yet unstated by you.

For us its defiance of God.

 

[dolphinlove]

Sin is forgiven once we go to confession.
But when we do confess, we are also making a promise to try and not do it again.

 

[notself]

I don’t know. Hopefully some Catholic will answer that.

Orthodox believe sin is a means of separating, or defying God which has consequences, logically enough, separating oneself from God.

From what I see about Karma is that it too is an action of separation - from one’s true path.

And, it has consequences.

What makes for ‘bad’ consequences for you is as yet unstated by you.

For us its defiance of God.

Well, your explanation does explain that the Orthodox concept of sin is close to kamma. I prefer the Pali word kamma for two reasons. First, the tradition of Buddhism I follow uses Pali so I am more used to using this word. Second, Hindus and Jains use the word karma with a different meaning than the Buddhist use of the word.

You were close in your statement that unskillful action does separate or distract one from the path. Kamma however just means volitional action. Vipaka is the result of this action. Kamma can be skillful, unskillful or neutral. The result (vipaka) can be good, bad, or neutral. Conditions must be right for the result to come to fruition. For example, one could be born with a genetic predisposition for composing music. If one is never exposed to music, this talent does not ripen.

If one performs a bad act, such as stealing, the result of that bad act may not meet the right conditions for the result to ripen immediately. You may not be caught. On the other hand you may be caught immediately. Kamma is not a straight line cause and effect. Kamma isn’t everything. For example storms, perfect weather, genetics, social convention are not kamma. Kamma is only volitional action and in the common use of the term, the results of volitional action (vipaka).

There is no kamma overseer handing out reward or punishment. Kamma is a natural force like gravity. However, unlike gravity, kamma does not work in a “what comes up must come down” directly linear manner. If the conditions and opportunity for the result, whether good or bad, do not occur, then the result will not happen. From previous actions, such as practice throwing a ball, you may have developed the capacity to become a no-hit pitcher in baseball. If you are prevented from playing baseball by what-ever circumstances, then the fruition of your actions, the no hit ball game, will not occur.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

hhmm i dont understand about god being mock. how are we mocking god? or what was happening at that time that st paul wrote the letter. i re read the chapter a few times and from what i understand, he is asking us to do good and god will reward us with the consistency of the good work we do…

One mocks God when one expects that goodness will come to him even when he himself chooses to do evil. God is, in the essence of his nature, goodness, and to do evil is therefore to mock God.

I’m not sure who the “he” is in the sentence concerning the “asking us” part. God does not ask the way you and I ask. He does not ask us to do good for his sake, but for ours. He does not, therefore, ask us to do good because of something he wants or needs for himself, but because of something we need, and therefore should want. It is not inappropriate to call it asking though, because God does not force compliance. Neither does he intervene to make the consequences of our actions disappear if we go our own way, rather than his.

We are not talking about an obligation on God’s part, in the sense of if we do X, he must do Y. No creature can place God under an obligation. His rewarding good is simply a part of his nature.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Montalban]

Well, your explanation does explain that the Orthodox concept of sin is close to kamma.

We *are *Eastern

I prefer the Pali word kamma for two reasons. First, the tradition of Buddhism I follow uses Pali so I am more used to using this word. Second, Hindus and Jains use the word karma with a different meaning than the Buddhist use of the word.

You were close in your statement that unskillful action does separate or distract one from the path. Kamma however just means volitional action. Vipaka is the result of this action. Kamma can be skillful, unskillful or neutral. The result (vipaka) can be good, bad, or neutral. Conditions must be right for the result to come to fruition. For example, one could be born with a genetic predisposition for composing music. If one is never exposed to music, this talent does not ripen.

If one performs a bad act, such as stealing, the result of that bad act may not meet the right conditions for the result to ripen immediately. You may not be caught. On the other hand you may be caught immediately. Kamma is not a straight line cause and effect. Kamma isn’t everything. For example storms, perfect weather, genetics, social convention are not kamma. Kamma is only volitional action and in the common use of the term, the results of volitional action (vipaka).

There is no kamma overseer handing out reward or punishment. Kamma is a natural force like gravity. However, unlike gravity, kamma does not work in a “what comes up must come down” directly linear manner. If the conditions and opportunity for the result, whether good or bad, do not occur, then the result will not happen. From previous actions, such as practice throwing a ball, you may have developed the capacity to become a no-hit pitcher in baseball. If you are prevented from playing baseball by what-ever circumstances, then the fruition of your actions, the no hit ball game, will not occur.

How is something then ‘bad’? (or ‘good’)

 

[notself]

Montalban

We *are *Eastern

How is something then ‘bad’? (or ‘good’)

This is what the Buddha taught his son Rahula when the boy asked this question.

“What do you think, Rahula: What is a mirror for?”

“For reflection, sir.”

"In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection.

"Whenever you want to do an action, you should reflect on it: ‘This action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful action, with painful consequences, painful results?’ If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful action with painful consequences, painful results, then any action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction… it would be a skillful action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any action of that sort is fit for you to do.

"While you are doing an action, you should reflect on it: ‘This action I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful action, with painful consequences, painful results?’ If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both… you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not… you may continue with it.

"Having done a action, you should reflect on it: ‘This action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful action, with painful consequences, painful results?’ If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it… you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction… it was a skillful action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.

This is actually the Golden Rule of Buddhism. It is not a bad practice for anyone wanting to live a moral and ethical life.

In addition to this, there are the Five Precepts (which are similar to the 10 Commandments) and numerous teachings on leading a virtuous life as a layperson.