Kasper’s response to cardinals’ protests against communion for remarried divorcees

[FollowChrist34]

It may interest CAF readers to peruse this article covering the language used in coverage of the synod by NPR.

I really don’t know which media to trust. I read this article, and it is clear (and absolutely no surprise) that NPR is slanting this toward the progressives. But I have read a lot of secular and Catholic sources. All of the secular sources basically say the same thing, in varying degrees. The Pope IS sympathetic to Cardinal Kasper and his ideas. His own statements confirm that argument. I think the Pope wants people to know that. He is a Jesuit. He’s not going to lay low. I think a lot of Catholic conservative sources are slanting all this to be seen in as favorable a “conservative” light as possible, and glossing over the slight problem with the Pope’s position. Just my opinion.

I am starting to think that the “conservatives’” could, after all, basically hold the line and emerge from this largely unscathed. But I could definitely be wrong. It seems like those who are really pushing for reforms ARE in the minority, in spite of the secular and high level support. I saw one good headline (Daily Beast, I know, I know) : Pope vs. the Church on Family Values?

thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/05/the-pope-vs-the-church-on-family-values.html (article is a bit of a waste of time - especially if you’ve already wasted time on the NPR one)

Hard to say what will happen really - the apple cart has been overturned, no question.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Hard to say what will happen really - the apple cart has been overturned, no question.

And it is excellent that it has done so.

 

[Vico]

Such double talk from this guy. How does giving divorced people communion or even accepting the orthodox view of marriage strengthen marriages indissolubility?? Why is he playing dumb? He knows that he basically wants divorce on demand. He’s just taking baby steps with the communion ruse because he knows that for one most of the bishops aren’t as radical as him and if he manages to pass this reform it will opens the gates for future acts of “tolerance”, “compassion”, and “getting with the times”.

I read this yesterday, the idea that the Orthodox model may be considered for those cases where an annulment could not be had due to lack of various proofs required. For example, there are some unusual situations of questionable death. It was emphasized that this synod is not intended to reform doctrine but rather it is to investigate pastoral solutions.

 

[pnewton]

I read this yesterday, the idea that the Orthodox model may be considered for those cases where an annulment could not be had due to lack of various proofs required.

I do not worry about statements like the above. The Orthodox model is data, just like other data. They do things differently. By close examination, the bishops can determine what doctrine, if any represents the point of departure, or deviation from the Catholic model. Then, whether there is actual doctrine or discipline can be examined. Even if something is just disciplinary, the bishops may decline a change they deem imprudent.

If some bishop or group of bishops seems to be of two minds, realize there are more than one side to this issue. They know this. We cannot be so broad-minded our brains fall out, but neither can we be so narrow as to reject mercy in all that are less than ideal, that is, sinners. That is the error the Pharisees made.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The Pope IS sympathetic to Cardinal Kasper and his ideas. His own statements confirm that argument.

Can you bring me up to speed on those Pope quotes? Also, I would imagine many orthodox bishops could have “sympathy” for Kasper’s position without endorsing it.

 

[McCall1981]

Can you bring me up to speed on those Pope quotes? Also, I would imagine many orthodox bishops could have “sympathy” for Kasper’s position without endorsing it.

I think it is based mostly on the “tone” of his homilies etc, in that he keeps warning against “legalism” and getting too caught up in “the rules” etc.

I also agree with FollowChrist34, I do think it is possible that the “conservatives” are holding the line so to speak. My personal impression of the discussions so far is that there has been a big shift in tone, without a big shift in content, and that this might be exactly what they’re working towards.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Can you bring me up to speed on those Pope quotes? Also, I would imagine many orthodox bishops could have “sympathy” for Kasper’s position without endorsing it.

Yes, I am referring to the tone and content of the Pope’s homilies (see highlighted portions below). He is in my opinion, clearly characterizing the “conservative” bishops as Pharisee-like and bound to legalism and rigidity. The Gospel must be heard anew and assist us in bringing about change to meet the challenges of the contemporary world. I think it’s important to listen to the Pope’s homilies because this is the only way he knows he can get out his message uncensored or reinterpreted. He is speaking to the Church and the world here. (to be clear I am speaking here as a conservative Catholic )

This year’s extraordinary synod will launch with a Mass presided over by Pope Francis this Sunday, and will conclude with the beatification of Pope Paul VI, institutor of the synod of bishops, by the Pope Oct. 19.

In his address, the Bishop of Rome turned to the Gospel, saying that in it we discover a salvation that fulfills the deepest needs of mankind, of which we as a Church are a sign and instrument.

“If it were not so, our building would remain only a house of cards, and pastors would be reduced to clerics of state, on whose lips the people would search in vain for the freshness and ‘smell of the Gospel.’”

Because of this we ask the Holy Spirit for three things for upcoming synod, he said, the first being “the gift of listening for the synod fathers: to listen in the manner of God, so that they may hear, with him, the cry of the people; to listen to the people, until they breathe the will to which God calls us.”
**
.” Aside from listening, the Pope also invoked an “openness toward a sincere discussion, open and fraternal, which leads us to carry with pastoral responsibility the questions that this change in epoch brings**

“We let it flow back into our hearts, without ever losing peace, but with serene trust which in his own time the Lord will not fail to bring into unity.”

Finally, the secret to overcoming situations of difficulty with persistence, patience and creativity “lies in a gaze: and it is the third gift that we implore with our prayer.”

To truly continue moving forward amid contemporary challenges, it is necessary to keep our eyes fixed on Jesus Christ, he said, which requires us pause for moments of contemplation when we look with adoration on his face.

“If we assume his way of thinking, of living and of relating, we will never tire of translating the Synodal work into guidelines and paths for the pastoral care of the person and of the family,” the pontiff continued.

“EVERY TIME WE RETURN TO THE SOURCE OF CHRISTIAN EXPERIENCE, NEW PATHS AND UN-THOUGHT OF POSSIBILITIES OPEN UP. THIS IS WHAT THE GOSPEL HINTS AT: ‘DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU…’ LET US MAKE THESE WORDS OURS!”

Pope Francis then went on to say that if this is the constant attitude of the synod participants, **“our listening and our discussion on the family, loved with the gaze of Christ, will become a providential occasion with which to renew – according to the example of Saint Francis – the Church and society.”
**
“With the joy of the Gospel we will rediscover the way of a reconciled and merciful Church, poor and friend of the poor; a Church ‘given strength that it might, in patience and in love, overcome its sorrows and its challenges, both within itself and from without.’”

Concluding his address, the Roman Pontiff prayed that “the wind of Pentecost blow upon the Synod’s work, on the Church and on all of humanity.”

“Undo the knots which prevent people from encountering one another, heal the wounds that bleed, rekindle hope,” he said, and “Grant us this creative charity which consents to love as Jesus loved, and our message may reclaim the vivacity and enthusiasm of the first missionaries of the Gospel.”

 

[gilliam]

Last night, Kasper picked up a powerful endorsement from a fellow German, Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Munich. Marx is not only president of the German bishops’ conference, he’s also a member of the pope’s “G8” council of cardinal advisors and head of his powerful new Council for the Economy – in other words, a very big deal indeed.

Speaking during an evening news conference held at Vatican Radio, Marx said that “the majority of the German bishops are with Kasper,” and although he didn’t quite say explicitly, he left the impression that his sympathies are with Kasper, too.

Perhaps it may not seem surprising to hear one German back another, but try to recall that when Kasper and his colleagues got into hot water with the Vatican more than 20 years ago, it was a German, Ratzinger, leading the crackdown. Recall, too, that one of Kasper’s most vocal critics this time around has been another German Vatican doctrinal czar, Cardinal Gerhard Müller.

Given how much the Germans have been protagonists in this debate, it’s no small thing to hear their most powerful member declare out loud which side the majority is on.

cruxnow.com/church/2014/10/07/a-boost-to-american-pride-and-a-plug-for-kasper/

 

[McCall1981]

Last night, Kasper picked up a powerful endorsement from a fellow German, Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Munich. Marx is not only president of the German bishops’ conference, he’s also a member of the pope’s “G8” council of cardinal advisors and head of his powerful new Council for the Economy – in other words, a very big deal indeed.

Speaking during an evening news conference held at Vatican Radio, Marx said that “the majority of the German bishops are with Kasper,” and although he didn’t quite say explicitly, he left the impression that his sympathies are with Kasper, too.

Perhaps it may not seem surprising to hear one German back another, but try to recall that when Kasper and his colleagues got into hot water with the Vatican more than 20 years ago, it was a German, Ratzinger, leading the crackdown. Recall, too, that one of Kasper’s most vocal critics this time around has been another German Vatican doctrinal czar, Cardinal Gerhard Müller.

Given how much the Germans have been protagonists in this debate, it’s no small thing to hear their most powerful member declare out loud which side the majority is on.

cruxnow.com/church/2014/10/07/a-boost-to-american-pride-and-a-plug-for-kasper/

It’s been known for quite a while that Card Marx supports Card Kasper. Though, so far he is the only Cardinal to explicitly support Kasper.

To “score one for the other side”, Card Vingt-Trois (Archbp of Paris) said last night that he does not agree with Kasper.

 

[FollowChrist34]

It’s been known for quite a while that Card Marx supports Card Kasper. Though, so far he is the only Cardinal to explicitly support Kasper.

To “score one for the other side”, Card Vingt-Trois (Archbp of Paris) said last night that he does not agree with Kasper.

Don’t forget Cardinal Mueller of Germany, against.

 

[Ender]

The Gospel must be heard anew and assist us in bringing about change to meet the challenges of the contemporary world.

So does this mean that the truth changes from one time to another? Do the “challenges of the contemporary world” mean that what was true before is true no longer?

“If it were not so, our building would remain only a house of cards, and pastors would be reduced to clerics of state, on whose lips the people would search in vain for the freshness and ‘smell of the Gospel.’”

Is this how doctrine is to be determined, by the “smell of the Gospel”? This sounds even vaguer than the Spirit of Vatican II.

“Undo the knots which prevent people from encountering one another, heal the wounds that bleed, rekindle hope,” he said, and “Grant us this creative charity which consents to love as Jesus loved, and our message may reclaim the vivacity and enthusiasm of the first missionaries of the Gospel.”

At the end of the day, after all the healing and rekindling, the issue remains the same: which doctrine must change in order to allow the divorced and remarried to receive communion? Beyond this, how will the change be explained? Either the prior doctrine must be declared in error or that doctrine (and by implication pretty much every other one) is reduced to the level of discipline. Either way, the cure would be much worse than the disease.

Ender

 

[FollowChrist34]

So does this mean that the truth changes from one time to another? Do the “challenges of the contemporary world” mean that what was true before is true no longer?
Is this how doctrine is to be determined, by the “smell of the Gospel”? This sounds even vaguer than the Spirit of Vatican II.
At the end of the day, after all the healing and rekindling, the issue remains the same: which doctrine must change in order to allow the divorced and remarried to receive communion? Beyond this, how will the change be explained? Either the prior doctrine must be declared in error or that doctrine (and by implication pretty much every other one) is reduced to the level of discipline. Either way, the cure would be much worse than the disease.

Ender

Yes, I am with you, friend. I share your concern and zeal.

 

[pnewton]

This synod will never be so simplistic as “truth is always true” or the yea’s versus nay’s. Of course true doctrine does not change. No one is going to suggest it does. The cardinals will try and sort where doctrine ends. The yea’s and nay’s will shift depending on specific issues. This is not politics.

 

[McCall1981]

Don’t forget Cardinal Mueller of Germany, against.

Yes. I am encouraged by the fact that (at least in these first few days) no more participants have come out in favor of Kasper (Marx is still the only one).

Now of course that doesn’t mean there aren’t others supporting him, for instance, though he has not said so, I am sure Card Daneels supports Kasper.

But as far as we the public knows, the big majority is still against him, and two more have said now they disagree with him, Erdo (who is not a surprise, but still) and Vingt-Trois.

 

[MarcoPolo]

My two cents. I read through all the Pope quotes provided, and it is flowery, and I don’t have a problem trying to figure out a solution that confronts what Catholics on the front line face. But at the end the day, it does not indicate what the synod is going to produce. I don’t want to get too speculative. I don’t have too much other comment right this second. Perhaps I won’t until a document is produced.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Yes. I am encouraged by the fact that (at least in these first few days) no more participants have come out in favor of Kasper (Marx is still the only one).

Now of course that doesn’t mean there aren’t others supporting him, for instance, though he has not said so, I am sure Card Daneels supports Kasper.

But as far as we the public knows, the big majority is still against him, and two more have said now they disagree with him, Erdo (who is not a surprise, but still) and Vingt-Trois.

Oh, I have no problem believing that a majority of the Bishops are against. But I do think the Pope is a big IF factor, as we’ve established in various threads. And you (and others) are better informed as to the logistics of how this synod works (I just read articles here and there.) To me, it’s worrisome that the Pope is behind Kasper, but perhaps not. It’s kind of like those work battles where the ones with the boss always win… they’re usually a minority too.

I don’t think much will change this time around - am thinking LONG term. I would be so happy if I were wrong.

 

[pnewton]

But I do think the Pope is a big IF factor, as we’ve established in various threads.

I am beginning to think he is not such a factor. He is going to let the synod pick its own leaders, topics and directions. It seems he has faith the Holy Spirit will prevail. I think we should heed his faith and emulate it.

 

[McCall1981]

Oh, I have no problem believing that a majority of the Bishops are against. But I do think the Pope is a big IF factor, as we’ve established in various threads. And you (and others) are better informed as to the logistics of how this synod works (I just read articles here and there.) To me, it’s worrisome that the Pope is behind Kasper, but perhaps not. It’s kind of like those work battles where the ones with the boss always win… they’re usually a minority too.

I don’t think much will change this time around - am thinking LONG term. I would be so happy if I were wrong.

Well, believe me, I certainly share your concern.

My sense would be that the Pope will go along with what the Synod decided, one way or the other. First, because this is typically (as in virtually always) what happens anyway, and secondly because they have made such a big deal of “synodality” this time.

Card Kasper said that his impression is that the Pope would approve his proposition if the Bishops approve it, but that he wouldn’t force it on them because he wants the backing of the large majority (I’m paraphrasing), and I think that is probably true.

But I’m guessing as much as anyone else.

 

[Megan7]

I completely agree with this, Mr Moderator! This thread is not about any individual poster, nor any individual cardinal’s personal character. It is about the issue of divorced and remarried couples, not about attacking people.

I have finally seen the video interview of Cardinal Kasper. He makes his position crystal clear: he is talking about divorced and remarried Catholics who are having regular sexual relations. I didn’t originally think he had gone quite this far but he has indeed done so.

To be honest, I am rather pleased the Cardinal has been so forthright. For decades now there has been an uneasy coexistence in the Church between Catholics who sincerely uphold Catholic teaching on all points (like Catholic Answers - rah for them!) and ‘Catholics’ who are trying to ease those teachings they no longer believe in out of the Church’s praxis. The watchword has been: “We are all part of the same Church so must get along together”.

But finally (crossing fingers) this unnatural cohabitation is coming to an end. Cardinal Kasper has made his stand clearly, publicly, and he continues to uphold it, citing the Pope in support. Other Cardinals have come out equally clearly and publicly against him, defending Church teaching. My prayer is that the open debate on this issue will extend to other issues - like the reality of Original sin, the historicity of Adam and Eve, and a host of other doctrinal issues that are in practice rejected or ignored.

If things do fire up, then everyone will find himself oblige to make a choice: either support Catholic teaching unequivocally, or oppose it unequivocally. It will have the marvellous effect of clearing the air. Everyone will know where they stand. It can only be a vast improvement on the current situation.

Thanks for your post & contribution to this thread. God bless.

Cardinal Kasper’s video:

youtube.com/watch?v=9N879uaq9-8

And to be fair here is Cardinal Burke’s position:

youtube.com/watch?v=Tf7AdXjdT1k

youtube.com/watch?v=Mo2YaU_u1Y0

Below is one of the comments, I thought was very interesting. CNS seems to show each Cardinal in a different light, sad…

“Did CNS think nobody would notice the imagery??? The divorced-and-remarried in Cardinal Kasper’s interview are all gorgeous people, lunching in the sunshine, etc., while Cardinal Burke is sitting in some dark, dank Vatican mausoleum”

 

[Tigg]

In Megan’s posted video Cardinal Burke said, “I do not see how it [Kaspar’s proposal] can go forward if we are to honor the words of our Lord, Himself.”

He further mentions how, because this has been so publicized, some are already coming to their bishops and priests insisting they can now receive the sacraments. (As if the Church has already decided on this.) He mentions their misunderstanding makes the wounds deeper. My thought is that for the love of Christ and His Church, they should have kept this internal to the Synod because damage is already being done, regardless the outcome.

It just hit me anew how extremely serious this is for the Church. The very fact of such fundamental disagreement on this level is bad enough in and of itself, not to mention the possible serious consequences if they try to tamper with divine law. Even Crd Burke said if this proposal is accepted, he doesn’t know how he will be able to digest it. Our Lady warned of this and it is happening.

Lord, preserve your OHCA Church!