Keep hitting the same hurdles on the Catholic Church

[Truth_Faith13]

I wasn’t sure where to pop this thread, sorry if it’s in the wrong place!

I’ve been studying Catholicism for about 2 years now (maybe longer) as well as looking at other churches also. I’m still at a point of not really knowing where I belong. I have read a lot of great books on Catholicism; Rome sweet Home, Something other than God, Born fundamentalist, born again Catholic (or its called something along those lines) , The Protestants Dilemma, Theology of the Body and many more.

I see a LOT of truth in Catholicism, so much so that I think I would struggle to attend another church; the real presence, apostolic succession, the sacraments etc however I keep hitting the same hurdles which stop me from starting a journey of becoming Catholic. I think it can be summed up in that currently I will see a truth in Catholicism, I can see where the various beliefs come from, however I still think with some things, the church pushes things too far and I lose the ability to see where that belief has come from.

1. Celibacy - I can understand where the idea of being celibate (for holy orders) comes from and that the Bible does say it’s desirable. I understand that the Bible doesn’t say a priest HAS to be married ( I’m thinking where it talks of husband of one wife etc). However even Catholics have told me it’s not a long standing belief and could be changed, so why is it needed? I can’t understand the REQUIREMENT to be celibate especially if its not long standing.
2. Contraception - I’m not against NFP, I can understand the belief behind hormonal birth control given the abortive effect. However I can’t see the problem with Condoms or Hysterectomy etc where there isn’t an abortive effect. I know the answer a Catholic will give - being open to procreation, unity etc. I just think it pushes it too far. I can’t see why God would be against something which doesn’t cause a baby to die (birth control) especially when the mothers life would be at a serious risk.
3. Mortal Sin - I agree with the Church that it is possible to lose salvation. However if a person misses church, the Church considers that a mortal sin. Again I don’t know if this pushes it too far, surely God isn’t necessarily going to condemn someone for eternity just because he/she missed church? (Unless of course they were committing a sin such as murder etc)

There are others, but they are the three main ones which I keep going around and round in circles. I’m not sure what I’m after, I have asked about individual points before. It would be interesting to hear if any other converts struggled with these? How you overcame them? General advice etc?

 

[ArielRussu]

I wasn’t sure where to pop this thread, sorry if it’s in the wrong place!

I’ve been studying Catholicism for about 2 years now (maybe longer) as well as looking at other churches also. I’m still at a point of not really knowing where I belong. I have read a lot of great books on Catholicism; Rome sweet Home, Something other than God, Born fundamentalist, born again Catholic (or its called something along those lines) , The Protestants Dilemma, Theology of the Body and many more.

I see a LOT of truth in Catholicism, so much so that I think I would struggle to attend another church; the real presence, apostolic succession, the sacraments etc however I keep hitting the same hurdles which stop me from starting a journey of becoming Catholic. I think it can be summed up in that currently I will see a truth in Catholicism, I can see where the various beliefs come from, however I still think with some things, the church pushes things too far and I lose the ability to see where that belief has come from.

1. Celibacy - I can understand where the idea of being celibate (for holy orders) comes from and that the Bible does say it’s desirable. I understand that the Bible doesn’t say a priest HAS to be married ( I’m thinking where it talks of husband of one wife etc). However even Catholics have told me it’s not a long standing belief and could be changed, so why is it needed? I can’t understand the REQUIREMENT to be celibate especially if its not long standing.

This was created to prevent the family of priests from inheriting church land. There is zero biblical evidence for it. It was created out of pure political convenience for the church.

 

[Della]

I wasn’t sure where to pop this thread, sorry if it’s in the wrong place!

I’ve been studying Catholicism for about 2 years now (maybe longer) as well as looking at other churches also. I’m still at a point of not really knowing where I belong. I have read a lot of great books on Catholicism; Rome sweet Home, Something other than God, Born fundamentalist, born again Catholic (or its called something along those lines) , The Protestants Dilemma, Theology of the Body and many more.

I see a LOT of truth in Catholicism, so much so that I think I would struggle to attend another church; the real presence, apostolic succession, the sacraments etc however I keep hitting the same hurdles which stop me from starting a journey of becoming Catholic. I think it can be summed up in that currently I will see a truth in Catholicism, I can see where the various beliefs come from, however I still think with some things, the church pushes things too far and I lose the ability to see where that belief has come from.

1. Celibacy - I can understand where the idea of being celibate (for holy orders) comes from and that the Bible does say it’s desirable. I understand that the Bible doesn’t say a priest HAS to be married ( I’m thinking where it talks of husband of one wife etc). However even Catholics have told me it’s not a long standing belief and could be changed, so why is it needed? I can’t understand the REQUIREMENT to be celibate especially if its not long standing.

Celibacy is not required in all cases, first of all. Eastern Catholics do have a married priesthood, but even they don’t allow it in all cases because celibacy is preferred. In the Roman Rite it is the norm. No man is forced into ordination. It’s voluntary. It’s like special forces training–most military personnel don’t take such training, but for those that do more is required of them. It’s a personal choice to be considered for ordination. And not all who enter formation end as priests. It’s a long process with much discernment. Are you saying that men shouldn’t be allowed to offer themselves completely to God in ordination? Isn’t that their choice to make?

1. Contraception - I’m not against NFP, I can understand the belief behind hormonal birth control given the abortive effect. However I can’t see the problem with Condoms or Hysterectomy etc where there isn’t an abortive effect. I know the answer a Catholic will give - being open to procreation, unity etc. I just think it pushes it too far. I can’t see why God would be against something which doesn’t cause a baby to die (birth control) especially when the mothers life would be at a serious risk.

It also doesn’t allow a baby to be conceived who ought to have been–the attitude being that God is a big meanie who wants to force unwanted children upon us. That’s the modern conceit–that we don’t need him interfering in “our” love lives–as if any part of our lives were not his to begin with. As adults we ought to be able to control all of our appetites and desires. Our culture has told us for the last few generations that we should have no constraints on them, but that’s not responsible. Contraceptives are not controlling birth–their denying birth, which is not the same thing. So, what is in control? Us or our glands?

1. Mortal Sin - I agree with the Church that it is possible to lose salvation. However if a person misses church, the Church considers that a mortal sin. Again I don’t know if this pushes it too far, surely God isn’t necessarily going to condemn someone for eternity just because he/she missed church? (Unless of course they were committing a sin such as murder etc)

To deliberately miss obligatory Masses violates the third of the Ten Commandments to “keep holy the Sabbath day.” None of those commandments has been abrogated by God. So yes, God considers deliberate disobedience against this commandment just as bad as any other–or it wouldn’t be one of them.

There are others, but they are the three main ones which I keep going around and round in circles. I’m not sure what I’m after, I have asked about individual points before. It would be interesting to hear if any other converts struggled with these? How you overcame them? General advice etc?

When we come to love God we come to accept that he knows us far better than we do ourselves. Living according to God’s commands takes being imbued with his grace. We cannot do it on our own, which is why God gave us the sacraments to give us the graces needed. Living as God wants us to is possible–it takes surrendering our wills to his and relying on his graces to do it. You should read the Catechism on these issues, if you haven’t.

 

[Della]

This was created to prevent the family of priests from inheriting church land. There is zero biblical evidence for it. It was created out of pure political convenience for the church.

There is biblical evidence for it from Jesus himself and St. Paul–who both led celibate lives and encouraged others to do the same for love of God.

 

[1ke]

1. Celibacy - I can understand where the idea of being celibate (for holy orders) comes from and that the Bible does say it’s desirable. I understand that the Bible doesn’t say a priest HAS to be married ( I’m thinking where it talks of husband of one wife etc). However even Catholics have told me it’s not a long standing belief and could be changed, so why is it needed? I can’t understand the REQUIREMENT to be celibate especially if its not long standing.

Well define “not long standing”. I’m sorry but whoever told you it was “not long standing” didn’t know what they were talking about.

Celibacy has been in place from the beginning of Christianity. The monks and hermits have always been celibates. Various synods in the west began laying down canons on celibacy for the unmarried clergy (and continence for the married clergy) as the rule for priests very early-- for example Elvira in Spain around the year 305. It has been the universal practice in the West for over 1000 years.

Yes, it is a discipline, not a doctrine, so it could change. I can suggest you read the writings of the Popes on this topic to understand why they believe it to be the best way to carry out the vocation of priesthood.

1. Contraception - I’m not against NFP, I can understand the belief behind hormonal birth control given the abortive effect. However I can’t see the problem with Condoms or Hysterectomy etc where there isn’t an abortive effect. I know the answer a Catholic will give - being open to procreation, unity etc. I just think it pushes it too far. I can’t see why God would be against something which doesn’t cause a baby to die (birth control) especially when the mothers life would be at a serious risk.

God ordered sexual intercourse to procreation and unity of spouses. That is its purpose-- and the purpose of procreation cannot be separated from the purpose of unity. To seek one while purposely thwarting the other is to misuse the gift of sexuality.

If one cannot welcome a child at that time, abstaining from relations respects the gift of our sexual faculties.

Hysterectomies for medical purposes is fine.

This is not something to be resolved in an online forum. I can suggest the book The Bible and Birth Control by Charles Provan (a non Catholic) and Life Giving Love by Kimberly Hahn.

1. Mortal Sin - I agree with the Church that it is possible to lose salvation. However if a person misses church, the Church considers that a mortal sin. Again I don’t know if this pushes it too far, surely God isn’t necessarily going to condemn someone for eternity just because he/she missed church? (Unless of course they were committing a sin such as murder etc)

The obligation to worship God in the Mass is a serious one. It is not always a sin to miss Mass on Sundays or Holy Days, such as care of infants, sickness, etc. It is not simply missing Mass, it is willfully ignoring the obligation and purposely not going to Mass that is wrong.

There are others, but they are the three main ones which I keep going around and round in circles. I’m not sure what I’m after, I have asked about individual points before. It would be interesting to hear if any other converts struggled with these? How you overcame them? General advice etc?

I converted. I did not struggle with these because I accepted the apostolic succession and authority of the Church. Everything flows from there.

 

[1ke]

This was created to prevent the family of priests from inheriting church land.

This is an anti-Catholic lie, debunked numerous times over.

There is zero biblical evidence for it.

Except for all that biblical evidence provided by Jesus and St Paul.

It was created out of pure political convenience for the church.

Another lie.

 

[Redkite]

Hi, I became Catholic some five years ago now and I choose to attend mass mainly on Saturday evenings. My family are not religious at all, by family I mean my wife and adult children, I was orphaned as a child and have no other blood family.
I sometimes struggle to attend mass at the weekend due to family or work commitments. With a non religious family I sometimes have to balance my faith against family, no one said that would be easy and its not. We are human, not perfect and I hope God loves us for that.
When I was being instructed by our wonderful parish priest he told me never to stop asking questions.
Honestly there are things regarding my faith that I still question and cannot see past, I would suspect that people born Catholic are the same. Even in the Bible there are people that encounter hurdles.
I pray you find peace.

 

[LethalMouse]

I wasn’t sure where to pop this thread, sorry if it’s in the wrong place!

I’ve been studying Catholicism for about 2 years now (maybe longer) as well as looking at other churches also. I’m still at a point of not really knowing where I belong. I have read a lot of great books on Catholicism; Rome sweet Home, Something other than God, Born fundamentalist, born again Catholic (or its called something along those lines) , The Protestants Dilemma, Theology of the Body and many more.

I see a LOT of truth in Catholicism, so much so that I think I would struggle to attend another church; the real presence, apostolic succession, the sacraments etc however I keep hitting the same hurdles which stop me from starting a journey of becoming Catholic. I think it can be summed up in that currently I will see a truth in Catholicism, I can see where the various beliefs come from, however I still think with some things, the church pushes things too far and I lose the ability to see where that belief has come from.

1. Celibacy - I can understand where the idea of being celibate (for holy orders) comes from and that the Bible does say it’s desirable. I understand that the Bible doesn’t say a priest HAS to be married ( I’m thinking where it talks of husband of one wife etc). However even Catholics have told me it’s not a long standing belief and could be changed, so why is it needed? I can’t understand the REQUIREMENT to be celibate especially if its not long standing.

Not even sure why this would be a big deal unless you wanted to be a priest… you can be a married Deacon or go Eastern Catholic and be a married priest. Other than than wanting a position… I really don’t care about it

1. Contraception - I’m not against NFP, I can understand the belief behind hormonal birth control given the abortive effect. However I can’t see the problem with Condoms or Hysterectomy etc where there isn’t an abortive effect. I know the answer a Catholic will give - being open to procreation, unity etc. I just think it pushes it too far. I can’t see why God would be against something which doesn’t cause a baby to die (birth control) especially when the mothers life would be at a serious risk.

God’s will. Simply leaving things to God. Some fertile people can do it all the time and have 2 kids… others have 10. The idea is to leave it in God’s hands. Which is basically the entire point of the religion, never try to undermine or overrule God…

1. Mortal Sin - I agree with the Church that it is possible to lose salvation. However if a person misses church, the Church considers that a mortal sin. Again I don’t know if this pushes it too far, surely God isn’t necessarily going to condemn someone for eternity just because he/she missed church? (Unless of course they were committing a sin such as murder etc)

This is an overly simplified look. In the CCC it even says that one can take communion if they are direct intent on confession. Essentially like ignorance, lack of physical ability etc is not a highway to hell. If you miss mass and regret and intend to go to confession and get hit by a bus… you are not hellbound…

There are others, but they are the three main ones which I keep going around and round in circles. I’m not sure what I’m after, I have asked about individual points before. It would be interesting to hear if any other converts struggled with these? How you overcame them? General advice etc?

Not a convert persay but raised lazy lapse catholic and spent alot of time as atheist/self determined religious ideas, so I approached reversion as a convert would essentially, I just got to skip the red tape

 

[Kaliaa]

This was created to prevent the family of priests from inheriting church land. There is zero biblical evidence for it. It was created out of pure political convenience for the church.

Provide legitimate sources, please, otherwise it’s just another lie to ignore and move on.

 

[Trident_H]

Well. You’ve had some good advice so far. Pretty straight shooting stuff. So I’ll add only a slight bit.

1. A priest is acting in the place of Jesus. So being totally dedicated to God in a non distracted way is a stronger way than doing that as a ‘job’ and then going home to the family at night. I mean priests have a lot of things to do so in a way it wouldn’t be a whole lot of fair to have them be all in for their congregation all the time and then later hear their kids talk about how ‘dad’ was never around much for them. It sort of shakes too much irony into the situation. So better to be clear about who they’re serving in this way.
2. Birth control’s a lot lower hurdle than you think. Just imagine a world without it. Just think how morality’s taken a huge hit because sex is no longer that serious a business. I mean if everyone knew for a fact that having sex would gift them with a child would they be anywhere near as ready to play with that in a casual way? Sure some would. But most would think more than twice about it. And that extra thinking would allow a bit of maturity into the picture first. So we’d have hopefully stronger families because things were lined up in the proper order.
3. Sunday obligation’s sort of like telling someone you love them to bits. That you’d do anything for them. But then you purposefully choose to go hang out at the mall instead of visiting. God made a day where all excuses of business have been pushed to one side. If we choose to then take advantage of that by also pushing Him to one side don’t you think He’s got a right to see right through us? Don’t you think He’s got our measure in a glass clear enough with that? I mean don’t actions speak a whole lot louder than words? Either we act like God’s our focus and highest point. Or we pretend He is and then behave towards the opposite end. We can’t have it both ways. So why would God pretend to fall for our pretending like that?

I don’t know if that helps.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[GLam8833]

As to keeping the Sabbath Mass, it is an indication
of where our heart belongs. I sometimes have to
buy a loaf of bread on Sunday, but I refrain from
going to a restaurant, that is agreeing that work
on Sunday is Okay. Lord, help us to be more holy!!

 

[SJacob7]

There is biblical evidence for it from Jesus himself and St. Paul–who both led celibate lives and encouraged others to do the same for love of God.

True. But remember, the first Pope (Peter) was married.

 

[MT1926]

I wasn’t sure where to pop this thread, sorry if it’s in the wrong place!

I’ve been studying Catholicism for about 2 years now (maybe longer) as well as looking at other churches also. I’m still at a point of not really knowing where I belong. I have read a lot of great books on Catholicism; Rome sweet Home, Something other than God, Born fundamentalist, born again Catholic (or its called something along those lines) , The Protestants Dilemma, Theology of the Body and many more.

I see a LOT of truth in Catholicism, so much so that I think I would struggle to attend another church; the real presence, apostolic succession, the sacraments etc however I keep hitting the same hurdles which stop me from starting a journey of becoming Catholic. I think it can be summed up in that currently I will see a truth in Catholicism, I can see where the various beliefs come from, however I still think with some things, the church pushes things too far and I lose the ability to see where that belief has come from.

How you overcame them? General advice etc?

I am going to go at this in a different direction. You say you are going round and round on these points. This tells me you are open and searching but it just doesn’t seem to take. I think at this point the only one that will be able to convince you of these is the Holy Spirit. So I would recommend you pray for guidance.

With that being said I would like to hone in on what you said here.

***so much so that I think I would struggle to attend another church; the real presence, apostolic succession, the sacraments etc ***

I think you have already crossed the 3 major hurdles that would keep you from starting your journey. Your other points are minor in my book. To me it is all about authority. Once you come to understand apostolic succession and the keys and the power to bind and loose the rest is easy. Along with our faith in Christ as the one true Shepherd we need to have faith that he left us a visible shepherd here on earth. We need to believe that our visible shepherd will do the will of the Father and lead us into all truths. I for one have accepted my shortcomings and am able to accept that I am not capable of interpreting the Bible on my own and leading myself into all truths. Once I was willing to open my heart and mind to teachers in the Church, that are much wiser than me, it was easier to accept some of the difficult teachings of the Church.

Also, keep in mind none of us are perfect or have perfect understanding. Just because you are having troubles with a few teachings is no reason to not get into an RCIA class and begin your journey. You are not signing on the dotted line at the beginning of class it is just part of the journey.

 

[Della]

True. But remember, the first Pope (Peter) was married.

Probably widowed. The only person mentioned in his family is his mother-in-law. He seems to have her in his care after his wife died–a kindly act on his part. No children are mentioned, either. Indeed, none of the other Apostles are described as having families to care for.

 

[Vanny]

I wasn’t sure where to pop this thread, sorry if it’s in the wrong place!

I’ve been studying Catholicism for about 2 years now (maybe longer) as well as looking at other churches also. I’m still at a point of not really knowing where I belong. I have read a lot of great books on Catholicism; Rome sweet Home, Something other than God, Born fundamentalist, born again Catholic (or its called something along those lines) , The Protestants Dilemma, Theology of the Body and many more.

I see a LOT of truth in Catholicism, so much so that I think I would struggle to attend another church; the real presence, apostolic succession, the sacraments etc however I keep hitting the same hurdles which stop me from starting a journey of becoming Catholic. I think it can be summed up in that currently I will see a truth in Catholicism, I can see where the various beliefs come from, however I still think with some things, the church pushes things too far and I lose the ability to see where that belief has come from.

1. Celibacy - I can understand where the idea of being celibate (for holy orders) comes from and that the Bible does say it’s desirable. I understand that the Bible doesn’t say a priest HAS to be married ( I’m thinking where it talks of husband of one wife etc). However even Catholics have told me it’s not a long standing belief and could be changed, so why is it needed? I can’t understand the REQUIREMENT to be celibate especially if its not long standing.
2. Contraception - I’m not against NFP, I can understand the belief behind hormonal birth control given the abortive effect. However I can’t see the problem with Condoms or Hysterectomy etc where there isn’t an abortive effect. I know the answer a Catholic will give - being open to procreation, unity etc. I just think it pushes it too far. I can’t see why God would be against something which doesn’t cause a baby to die (birth control) especially when the mothers life would be at a serious risk.
3. Mortal Sin - I agree with the Church that it is possible to lose salvation. However if a person misses church, the Church considers that a mortal sin. Again I don’t know if this pushes it too far, surely God isn’t necessarily going to condemn someone for eternity just because he/she missed church? (Unless of course they were committing a sin such as murder etc)

There are others, but they are the three main ones which I keep going around and round in circles. I’m not sure what I’m after, I have asked about individual points before. It would be interesting to hear if any other converts struggled with these? How you overcame them? General advice etc?

I am in exactly the same place you are. I have been discerning whether to become Catholic, Orthodox or remain Lutheran: I have also read much of the same books you have.

Number 3 is mainly the issue for me. There seems to me to be troubling traces of legalism in the RCC, which is why I have been looking at Orthodoxy, too.

What are NOT problems for me.

1. Contraception; Maybe it’s because I’m beyond my childbearing years now, but Humana Vitae seems to me to be not only full of wisdom, but Prophetic. Also Donum Vitae. I was just reading an article about donor conceived triplets greatly resenting the fact that they learned there were two sperm donors involved, in their conception and this was kept from them. I think the RCC stance on the Life issue is correct.

2.Real Presence. This is a no brainer for me-the Early church held this teaching, and it’s in the Bible(John 6, and Corinthians) which is why I have to at least stay Lutheran.

1. the Saints and Mary- Also part of the communion of Saints which we recite in the Nicene/Apostles Creed. Just as our earthly Church Family can pray for us, so can our Heavenly family, and I have no problem with many Marian doctrines, either.
2. Celibacy: I feel the same way you do. I think the Orthodox have the better view on this, though.
   Husband of one wife(they remain celibate if not married by ordination)

On the other hand: Problems

1. Mortal Sin: this is my biggest issue I need to work through- The WELS church I attend does not teach eternal security-but missing church or some other sin and then not getting to confession before one is killed, one can confess to God but one must have perfect contrition to be saved, How do you ever know if you have perfect contrition?
2. Masturbation: I think it is a sin, and disordered, and I don’t think God likes it.
   but send you to hell? I think it depends- some people are addicted to
   it and pornography, and need help out of it-for sure.
3. Divorce/Remarriage:
   I think the Orthodox have the right view on this, although I do agree that
   the Churches have become waaay too lax on this issue. So one could say the
   RCC has kept that from happening in it’s church. I agree with Pope
   Francis view on this issue.

As for missing Church I try to make it a point to attend every Sunday. I figure Jesus died for me I can give I him an hour every Sunday. But there have been a few times I’ve missed.

 

[Brendan]

True. But remember, the first Pope (Peter) was married.

But there is also no evidence that his wife was living at the time he became a disciple.

All we know was that he had a mother-in-law.

 

[ricmat]

Just an FYI.

No one goes to Hell for committing a mortal sin. You go do Hell for not repenting it.

How could you possibly go to Heaven if you commit such a sin, and insist on NOT repenting it?

The normal means of repentance in the Church is via Confession. It is a good idea to try your best to make a private, perfect, confession as soon as you realize you’ve sinned, and then get to real confession ASAP. Also, for any confession to be valid, you must absolutely have it in your heart, and will, never to commit those sins again.

 

[phil19034]

I’m going to break these up and answer one at a time.

1. Celibacy - I can understand where the idea of being celibate (for holy orders) comes from and that the Bible does say it’s desirable. I understand that the Bible doesn’t say a priest HAS to be married ( I’m thinking where it talks of husband of one wife etc). However even Catholics have told me it’s not a long standing belief and could be changed, so why is it needed? I can’t understand the REQUIREMENT to be celibate especially if its not long standing.

First, it is “a long standing” tradition in the Roman Rite, but not the Eastern Rites. However, it took a while until the entire Roman Rite was celibate. Meaning, the Latin Church phased it in over centuries. The didn’t simply say “from this time forward, no more married priests.”

Besides the Biblical reasons discussed by St. Paul, the celibate priesthood is necessary for logistical reasons in the Latin Church. Roman Rite Catholic parishes tend to be larger than the Eastern Catholic & Orthodox parishes. The parishioner to priest ratio in the Latin Church is very high. So being a Roman Rite Priest is very much a 7 day per week job and often all day.

Priests typically wake up very early in the morning, well before the first morning mass to pray the Hours, eat breakfast (more than 1 hour before mass) , etc.

A priest’s “work day” typically lasts well into the night as well.

Because the high priest to parishioner ratio, it is VERY difficult for priests to be both a great spiritual father & a great biological father.

Married priests in the Roman Rite (mostly ex-Anglicans) often talk about how much more difficult it is to be a Roman Catholic Priest with a family vs being an Anglican or Protestant pastor.

Unless a very large ministry, Protestant preachers often work just 1-3 days per week as a minister. The rest of their time during the week is typically in the evenings or “sporadic.” What I mean by “sporadic” is that they can often have a “day job” to provide for this families and can even take preaching jobs at multiple churches (Methodists do this often).

Basically, their Church job is “part time” compared to most Catholic Priests.**

Pay is also a big thing. Catholic Priests are paid on average only $21,000 - $25,000 per year (even with multiple Master & Doctorate degrees). Plus, they typically live in a rectory with other priests. That’s not enough money to raise a family, send them to Catholic School, Catholic College, pay a mortgage, two car payments, etc. And since a Catholic priests would most likely have many children, this would be significant.

This means that either (1) the priest would have to have a 2nd job and the parish would have even less access to their priest, (2) their family would suffer,*** or (3) parishes would have to tithe a lot more money to raise their salaries 300% to 500%.

Finally, there is the seminary experience. A priest cannot marry, married men can become priests, but ordinary men cannot marry. That has NEVER been allowed and never will be. Even among the Assyrian Church, Eastern Orthodox, & Oriental Orthodox; once a priest you cannot marry. NOTE: If a married deacon becomes a widower, even he isn’t allowed to remarry UNLESS he has young children.

So you would have married seminarians. Not all dioceses have their own seminary, so married seminarians would have to pick up and move their families to where the seminary is located. Unless they created a part time program (similar to the programs for Deacons), the married seminarians would not be able to get part time jobs to help their families. Unlike regular college, seminarians often have group prayer sessions and other ministry mentorship programs outside of the classroom, making part time work very difficult (if not impossible). If the married couple has children, the seminary years would be very taxing on the couple. Therefore, married seminarians would most likely need a seminary dedicated for them & their families.

Finally, the married Permanent Deacon ministry has shown that married priests will not work in the Catholic Church. In many parishes, Permanent Deacons rarely relieve the priests of their responsibilities and rarely increase parish ministries. The reason is because a married Deacon’s first priority is their marriage. The deacon does often help the pastor by relieving him of potentially one homily per month, but they rarely truly help unless they are employed by the Church as a Pastoral Assistant, etc. BTW - of course they do often lead a group like Youth Ministry, RCIA, etc; but those are roles that the layity could do too.

(**NOTE: I’m only discussing parish Pastors and Asst Pastors, not religious orders, etc.)
(***NOTE: The Church tells married Deacons that their wives and children come FIRST before parish ministry. So the same would have to happen with the a large number of married priests)

NOW - I will say mention one thing. Personally, I would be OK with retired Permanent Deacons (aka Deacons who don’t have young kids at home nor full time jobs) being permitted to become ordained priests provided that they still do the job for free (like the Permanent Deacon) or paid like a Weekend Assistant. These older, married priests could help with confessions, hospital ministry, and weekend Mass. However, in general, this should be a rarity, not a norm because being a married pastor in a parish of several thousand parishioners is extremely difficult.

Finally, keep on thing in mind. Being a priest is a vocation, or an occupation. Being a priest is like being married. Marriage is a vocation too. When you have a family, if your job is getting in the way of being a good husband, wife or parent, you have the option of getting a new job. Priests don’t have that option. They can’t quit being a priest.

 

[phil19034]

1. Contraception - I’m not against NFP, I can understand the belief behind hormonal birth control given the abortive effect. However I can’t see the problem with Condoms or Hysterectomy etc where there isn’t an abortive effect. I know the answer a Catholic will give - being open to procreation, unity etc. I just think it pushes it too far. I can’t see why God would be against something which doesn’t cause a baby to die (birth control) especially when the mothers life would be at a serious risk.

Well, first the pill does sometimes case a fertilized egg to die

Second, I’m not sure what kind of birth control helps when a mother’s life would be in serious risk…, not sure what you mean by that? But I can say that if the hormones in birth control are used to control bad periods, that is ok according the the Church if the main reason is for the health of the mother, not to prevent a baby.

The main reason why birth control is bad is because Catholics view the family via the lens of the Trinity.

We believe that the Love God the Father shares with God the Son creates the Third Person - God the Holy Spirit. We believe that the love a husband and wife share for one another should be the same kind of love; hence it should be able to create a third person.

Birth control interferes with that love. in a way, birth control would be akin to the Father & Son deciding not the send us the Holy Spirit, or only sending the Holy Spirit every once in awhile.

Some people will then say “well NFP” prevents the birth… yes, but it doesn’t prevent God from sending us a child. If God sends a child to a couple practicing NFP, the child will be born. However, if God sends a child to a couple practicing birth control, that child will be rejected by the couple unless the birth control is faulty.

NFP is an act of sacrifice. We make a sacrifice of abstaining from sexual pleasure out of a desire to responsibly space our children.

However, birth control is selfish. We don’t make a sacrifice and partake in sexual pleasure without accepting the responsibility that comes with it. That’s why the contraceptive mentality leads to abortion.

This sacrificial point of view is what makes condoms, hysterectomies, vasectomies, etc morally the same.

 

[Xantippe]

Besides the Biblical reasons discussed by St. Paul, the celibate priesthood is necessary for logistical reasons in the Latin Church. Roman Rite Catholic parishes tend to be larger than the Eastern Catholic & Orthodox parishes. The parishioner to priest ratio in the Latin Church is very high. So being a Roman Rite Priest is very much a 7 day per week job and often all day.

Priests typically wake up very early in the morning, well before the first morning mass to pray the Hours, eat breakfast (more than 1 hour before mass) , etc.

A priest’s “work day” typically lasts well into the night as well.

Because the high priest to parishioner ratio, it is VERY difficult for priests to be both a great spiritual father & a great biological father.

Married priests in the Roman Rite (mostly ex-Anglicans) often talk about how much more difficult it is to be a Roman Catholic Priest with a family vs being an Anglican or Protestant pastor.

Unless a very large ministry, Protestant preachers often work just 1-3 days per week as a minister. The rest of their time during the week is typically in the evenings or “sporadic.” What I mean by “sporadic” is that they can often have a “day job” to provide for this families and can even take preaching jobs at multiple churches (Methodists do this often).

Basically, their Church job is “part time” compared to most Catholic Priests.**

Pay is also a big thing. Catholic Priests are paid on average only $21,000 - $25,000 per year (even with multiple Master & Doctorate degrees). Plus, they typically live in a rectory with other priests. That’s not enough money to raise a family, send them to Catholic School, Catholic College, pay a mortgage, two car payments, etc. And since a Catholic priests would most likely have many children, this would be significant.

This means that either (1) the priest would have to have a 2nd job and the parish would have even less access to their priest, (2) their family would suffer,*** or (3) parishes would have to tithe a lot more money to raise their salaries 300% to 500%.

Finally, there is the seminary experience. A priest cannot marry, married men can become priests, but ordinary men cannot marry. That has NEVER been allowed and never will be. Even among the Assyrian Church, Eastern Orthodox, & Oriental Orthodox; once a priest you cannot marry. NOTE: If a married deacon becomes a widower, even he isn’t allowed to remarry UNLESS he has young children.

So you would have married seminarians. Not all dioceses have their own seminary, so married seminarians would have to pick up and move their families to where the seminary is located. Unless they created a part time program (similar to the programs for Deacons), the married seminarians would not be able to get part time jobs to help their families. Unlike regular college, seminarians often have group prayer sessions and other ministry mentorship programs outside of the classroom, making part time work very difficult (if not impossible). If the married couple has children, the seminary years would be very taxing on the couple. Therefore, married seminarians would most likely need a seminary dedicated for them & their families.

Finally, the married Permanent Deacon ministry has shown that married priests will not work in the Catholic Church. In many parishes, Permanent Deacons rarely relieve the priests of their responsibilities and rarely increase parish ministries. The reason is because a married Deacon’s first priority is their marriage. The deacon does often help the pastor by relieving him of potentially one homily per month, but they rarely truly help unless they are employed by the Church as a Pastoral Assistant, etc. BTW - of course they do often lead a group like Youth Ministry, RCIA, etc; but those are roles that the layity could do too.

(**NOTE: I’m only discussing parish Pastors and Asst Pastors, not religious orders, etc.)
(***NOTE: The Church tells married Deacons that their wives and children come FIRST before parish ministry. So the same would have to happen with the a large number of married priests)

NOW - I will say mention one thing. Personally, I would be OK with retired Permanent Deacons (aka Deacons who don’t have young kids at home nor full time jobs) being permitted to become ordained priests provided that they still do the job for free (like the Permanent Deacon) or paid like a Weekend Assistant. These older, married priests could help with confessions, hospital ministry, and weekend Mass. However, in general, this should be a rarity, not a norm because being a married pastor in a parish of several thousand parishioners is extremely difficult.

Finally, keep on thing in mind. Being a priest is a vocation, or an occupation. Being a priest is like being married. Marriage is a vocation too. When you have a family, if your job is getting in the way of being a good husband, wife or parent, you have the option of getting a new job. Priests don’t have that option. They can’t quit being a priest.

That was very good.

Also, being a Protestant pastor is very hard on marriages and family life.

I have a friend who is a Protestant pastor’s wife, and in their early years, they had a very hard time setting boundaries with members of their small church. There was one pretty crazy couple in their church that was demanding hours and hours of support.

There is only so much of a pastor, and the more he gives the church community, the less he can give his family. Sometimes, families really lose out.

There’s also a lot of need for the family (which, remember, may be getting shorted on dad’s time) to preserve a shiny, perfect exterior at all times. That’s a double whammy–to be deprived of normal support, but to be expected to perform perfectly at all times.