Keep the Fire Burning: The Folk Mass Revolution

[5Loaves]

Has anyone here read the fairly recently published Keep the Fire Burning: The Folk Mass Revolution? Someone on MusicaSacra Forum suggested reading it.

I’m going Saturday to Prepare the Way: Workshop with Dan Schutte as part of my effort to see what’s ahead with the new Mass translation. I’m extremely happy as a Byzantine Catholic with the Divine Liturgy that never faces changes. However, I’m also active in RCIA and Mass at a Latin parish. Especially as concerns my work with RCIA I try to be as familiar as possible with the Roman Rite in its variations, including occasional participation in the Extraordinary Form, and more frequent participation in a monastic priory’s Mass.

From the description of the book and after listening to a couple of the related podcasts I’m thinking this book will be helpful for me in gaining a better appreciation of the context of the reforms as they occurred in the US, a time period in the US I remember very well. I came into the Catholic Church post Second Vatican Council, although I often went to pre-conciliar Mass as a child with my best friend so I do remember the Mass in Latin as it was celebrated in that particular parish in the 1950s and '60s, coincidentally the same parish I’m involved with now.

Those wishing to grouse about any form of the Mass need not apply. I’m interested in who has read the book and whether it was helpful.

 

[VetA]

whats a ‘folk’ mass?

 

[MarkThompson]

I’ve listened to the podcasts, thought I haven’t read the book. As someone who started going to Mass around the very tail end of the era that’s under consideration, I thought it was incredibly fascinating to get a sense of this slice of what the changes were like. You can agree or disagree with using this kind of music (for my opinion, see my sig), but you can’t say that these people were out to “destroy the Mass,” “ruin Catholicism,” and all those things. It was fun to set a sense of the excitement of that time – and at the same time a little frightening to realize that things were so rushed that one guy with a guitar could wind up almost by necessity become a key part of Catholic music.

 

[5Loaves]

I’ve listened to the podcasts, thought I haven’t read the book. As someone who started going to Mass around the very tail end of the era that’s under consideration, I thought it was incredibly fascinating to get a sense of this slice of what the changes were like. You can agree or disagree with using this kind of music (for my opinion, see my sig), but you can’t say that these people were out to “destroy the Mass,” “ruin Catholicism,” and all those things. It was fun to set a sense of the excitement of that time – and at the same time a little frightening to realize that things were so rushed that one guy with a guitar could wind up almost by necessity become a key part of Catholic music.

I’ve only gotten as far as podcast Chapter Six: Mass for Young Americans (Part 1). I also have found it quite fascinating and already it’s given me a very valuable perspective. I almost jumped out of my seat when I heard the Singing Nun. It’s so amazing that her song was number one on secular popular music stations. I had the album, probably still do have it in my dusty LPs (along with Leonard Bernstein’s MASS which I love, not that I’d want it sung *during * the Holy Mass! Is anything more beautiful than Simple Song ? I feel like I’m hearing David singing a psalm).

 

[MarkThompson]

I’ve only gotten as far as podcast Chapter Six: Mass for Young Americans (Part 1). I also have found it quite fascinating and already it’s given me a very valuable perspective. I almost jumped out of my seat when I heard the Singing Nun. It’s so amazing that her song was number one on secular popular music stations. I had the album, probably still do have it in my dusty LPs (along with Leonard Bernstein’s MASS which I love, not that I’d want it sung *during * the Holy Mass! Is anything more beautiful than Simple Song ? I feel like I’m hearing David singing a psalm).

Yeah, no kidding. I think you’ll like hearing They’ll Know We Are Christians when you get to it. Of course there are some absolute stinkers, like Ray Repp’s Allelu and somebody’s (Peter Scholtes’?) Missa Bossa Nova. It seemed like we got the Agnus Dei of Missa Bossa Nova a lot when I was in college, but I’d never known where it came from or why it existed, only that I hated it – now I know! The Clarence Rivers spirituals in Chapter Four also don’t do much for me, but that’s just a matter of taste.

It’s definitely interesting to get a sense of these songs when they were performed originally and honestly – a priest with a guitar trying to figure out what to do; a nun with a number-one hit. Our views (mine, at least, definitely was) tend to be pretty colored by the experience of the last decade or two in which often this type of music has been pushed on people, or kept long past its prime, or just replaced with less-good and less-honest OCP stuff in the same style, and people don’t sing along and don’t particularly care for it.

By the say, did you catch the chanted “The Lord be with you / And with you too” in the demonstration Mass? People who don’t like “And also with you” ought to know just how much worse it could have been!

 

[MarkThompson]

By the way, you may also want to read Jeffrey Tucker’s review of the book from NLM: “I really can’t,” he says, “recommend this book highly enough. It is the essential tableau for understanding where we’ve been and where we are going.”

 

[Melchior_1]

whats a ‘folk’ mass?

If you’re being serious…read the book

 

[PaulinVA]

I played guitar in folk Masses in the seventies.

I think the number one thing about folk groups is that they don’t know how to humbly fade into the background.

A trained organist or pianist with a small choir is much more unobtrusive.

 

[Vincent1984]

whats a ‘folk’ mass?

This Rock magazine, part of Catholic Answers, has an excellent couple of articles on types of music at Mass. The first is here, and the second is in the subsequent issue. One of the first issues it addresses is ‘The Myth of “Folk” Music’:

So we can set aside the question of the appropriateness of folk music for the liturgy, because what we are hearing is not folk music at all.

 

[benedictgal]

Has anyone here read the fairly recently published Keep the Fire Burning: The Folk Mass Revolution? Someone on MusicaSacra Forum suggested reading it.

I’m going Saturday to Prepare the Way: Workshop with Dan Schutte as part of my effort to see what’s ahead with the new Mass translation. I’m extremely happy as a Byzantine Catholic with the Divine Liturgy that never faces changes. However, I’m also active in RCIA and Mass at a Latin parish. Especially as concerns my work with RCIA I try to be as familiar as possible with the Roman Rite in its variations, including occasional participation in the Extraordinary Form, and more frequent participation in a monastic priory’s Mass.

From the description of the book and after listening to a couple of the related podcasts I’m thinking this book will be helpful for me in gaining a better appreciation of the context of the reforms as they occurred in the US, a time period in the US I remember very well. I came into the Catholic Church post Second Vatican Council, although I often went to pre-conciliar Mass as a child with my best friend so I do remember the Mass in Latin as it was celebrated in that particular parish in the 1950s and '60s, coincidentally the same parish I’m involved with now.

Those wishing to grouse about any form of the Mass need not apply. I’m interested in who has read the book and whether it was helpful.

I have not read the book, but, given the fact that Dan Schutte is giving this seminar makes it lose credibility, in my opinion. Dan Schutte and the St. Louis Jesuits are responsible for a good part of the bad music that is out there. The SLJ Mass setting, for example, takes excessive liberties with the parts of the Mass. I also believe that Ken Canedo is associated with OCP. If that connection holds true, then the book, as I see it, would not even be worth reading it, except to see, as Jeffrey Tucker notes, how much damage this genre has done to the liturgy.

 

[zab]

Yeah, no kidding. I think you’ll like hearing They’ll Know We Are Christians when you get to it. Of course there are some absolute stinkers, like Ray Repp’s Allelu and somebody’s (Peter Scholtes’?) Missa Bossa Nova. It seemed like we got the Agnus Dei of Missa Bossa Nova a lot when I was in college, but I’d never known where it came from or why it existed, only that I hated it – now I know! The Clarence Rivers spirituals in Chapter Four also don’t do much for me, but that’s just a matter of taste.

It’s definitely interesting to get a sense of these songs when they were performed originally and honestly – a priest with a guitar trying to figure out what to do; a nun with a number-one hit. Our views (mine, at least, definitely was) tend to be pretty colored by the experience of the last decade or two in which often this type of music has been pushed on people, or kept long past its prime, or just replaced with less-good and less-honest OCP stuff in the same style, and people don’t sing along and don’t particularly care for it.

By the say, did you catch the chanted “The Lord be with you / And with you too” in the demonstration Mass? People who don’t like “And also with you” ought to know just how much worse it could have been!

 

[baltobetsy]

I confess, I played and sang for these in the late 60’s/early 70’s, too. Then I went to college and was exposed to chant and other good music, and there was no turning back.

OK, trivia question for all you oldsters: What song has the words, “Keep the fire burning,” and what is the next line?

Betsy

 

[snowlake]

I’m going Saturday to Prepare the Way: Workshop with Dan Schutte as part of my effort to see what’s ahead with the new Mass translation. ] end quote

If anyone is starting a novena to Our Lady of Mount Carmel today, the above might be
a good intention to include.

Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever!!!

 

[corsair]

I agree 100% with Benedictgal. If its Schutte or Haas or any of their friends its not worth the time. Sorry if that offends anyone but those are my opinions.

 

[Contarini]

I think that Dr. Esolen makes an excellent point–whatever this is, it’s not “folk” music, and the term is truly a weird one. I have come to appreciate many of these songs, but they aren’t folk songs and it continues to astound me that they have almost completely taken over Latin-Rite Catholic worship in the U.S. for decades.

Edwin

 

[SMHW]

I confess, I played and sang for these in the late 60’s/early 70’s, too. Then I went to college and was exposed to chant and other good music, and there was no turning back.

OK, trivia question for all you oldsters: What song has the words, “Keep the fire burning,” and what is the next line?

Betsy

Here We Are?

---

Keep the fire burning.
Kindle it with care.
And we’ll all join in and sing:

Here we are
Altogether as we sing our song
Joyfully.
Here we are
Altogether as?/and? we pray we’ll always be.

 

[revert_jen]

This Rock magazine, part of Catholic Answers, has an excellent couple of articles on types of music at Mass. The first is here, and the second is in the subsequent issue. One of the first issues it addresses is ‘The Myth of “Folk” Music’:

That’s a really good article. In particular, I liked “The song must be singable by nearly everyone.” Shortly after I returned to the Church, I was helping out because the regular cantor hadn’t shown up. There was no time to rehearse, and I had never heard “On Eagles’ Wings” before. (Presbyterians (PCA) don’t sing it, in my experience.)

Even with musical training, I couldn’t figure out from the accompaniment (which, granted, I didn’t have the music for) when I was supposed to start singing, or what note it should be. Any song I can’t do a reasonable job of sight-singing with accompaniment is not a song that is “singable by nearly everyone.” Boy, do I hate that song.

Also, as usual, I agree with benedictgal.

–Jen

P.S. If you’ve spent pretty much all of your adult life attending Protestant churches, and you have just returned to the Church, do NOT be a Cantor. You will spend the entire Mass worrying that you will forget what comes next in front of all of those people, and will not have nearly enough brain left to pray with. :hypno: I realize that, as advice, that has a rather limited audience, but I wish someone had said it to me!

 

[baltobetsy]

Here We Are?

---

Keep the fire burning.
Kindle it with care.
And we’ll all join in and sing:

Here we are
Altogether as we sing our song
Joyfully.
Here we are
Altogether as?/and? we pray we’ll always be.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! :clapping:

 

[malphono]

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! :clapping:

Or, one might call it a loser: that is without any shadow of doubt one of the most vile pieces of “music” that I have ever heard. And yes, I remember it from its debut. Even after all these years, the very thought of it makes me cringe.

 

[MarkThompson]

I think that Dr. Esolen makes an excellent point–whatever this is, it’s not “folk” music, and the term is truly a weird one.

I found it a strange point. If these aren’t folk pieces (I’m talking about the stuff that arose authentically in the 60s and 70s, not the manufactured stuff of the 80s and 90s) then neither are the songs of Bob Dylan and Joan Baez. It’s what people called folk music. Maybe you can call it folk rock if you like, but people called it folk music then, and people call it folk music now.

Of all the valid criticisms there are to be made about folk music, “It’s not folk music” is the last one I would hang my hat on.