Keeping a Cross Off Stamp Commemorating Pope

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Dei’ah veDibur (Israel)
By Betzalel Kahn

Deputy Welfare Minister Rabbi Avrohom Ravitz asked Minister Dan Naveh, head of the Ministerial Committee for Symbols and Ceremonies, to ensure that no crosses appear on the stamp issued in memory of Pope John Paul II. In his letter Rabbi Ravitz notes, “Many of our people shudder at the sight of the cross, which opens wounds that have not yet healed over and reminds them of acts committed under this symbol.”

Rabbi Ravitz contacted Minister Naveh following a decision by the committee to approve the issuance of a stamp in memory of the Pope. He asked that no crosses appear in any form on the stamp—not hanging from his neck or on his clothes and not as a separate element. “If this is impossible I suggest the idea of issuing the stamp be shelved,” he said, noting that stamp proposals have been known to stir widespread controversy in Israel.

At the end of his letter Rabbi Ravitz asks Minister Naveh to inquire whether a stamp has been issued for Czech diplomat and politician Jan Masaryk, a Righteous Gentile who worked extensively to combat antisemitism.
 
David_Paul said:
Dei’ah veDibur (Israel)
By Betzalel Kahn

Deputy Welfare Minister Rabbi Avrohom Ravitz asked Minister Dan Naveh, head of the Ministerial Committee for Symbols and Ceremonies, to ensure that no crosses appear on the stamp issued in memory of Pope John Paul II. In his letter Rabbi Ravitz notes, “Many of our people shudder at the sight of the cross, which opens wounds that have not yet healed over and reminds them of acts committed under this symbol.”

Rabbi Ravitz contacted Minister Naveh following a decision by the committee to approve the issuance of a stamp in memory of the Pope. He asked that no crosses appear in any form on the stamp—not hanging from his neck or on his clothes and not as a separate element. “If this is impossible I suggest the idea of issuing the stamp be shelved,” he said, noting that stamp proposals have been known to stir widespread controversy in Israel.

At the end of his letter Rabbi Ravitz asks Minister Naveh to inquire whether a stamp has been issued for Czech diplomat and politician Jan Masaryk, a Righteous Gentile who worked extensively to combat antisemitism.
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The rabbi sounds like a sophist. To remove the cross would be an insult to John Paul II.
 
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bones_IV:
To remove the cross would be an insult to John Paul II.
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No. They respect him enough to want to issue a stamp honoring him, but many Jews are leery of displaying the symbol of the religion whose followers, both Catholics and non-Catholics, have persecuted Jews over the centuries.
 
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Richardols:
No. They respect him enough to want to issue a stamp honoring him, but many Jews are leery of displaying the symbol of the religion whose followers, both Catholics and non-Catholics, have persecuted Jews over the centuries.
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oiy vey
 
No cross - no stamp.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

You can’t just blurr it out.
 
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Richardols:
Jews are leery of displaying the symbol of the religion whose followers, both Catholics and non-Catholics, have persecuted Jews over the centuries.
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That is the trite and offensive excuse always used but not the truth.

The truth is here.(Telegraph UK)

The attitude goes back to the Toledoth Yeshu and before.
 
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David_Paul:
That is the trite and offensive excuse always used but not the truth.
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Am I wrong? Christians didn’t persecute Jews over the centuries?
Then what did JPII apologize for? And BTW, offensive how?
 
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Richardols:
Then what did JPII apologize for?
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Christians apologize and attempt to atone for harm done to others. Doesn’t mean the others haven’t offended themselves. I have no interest in debating who did what to whom. If you have questions I suggest reading Hilaire Belloc on the topic.
 
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David_Paul:
Christians apologize and attempt to atone for harm done to others.
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You are right. They have done so lately, as exemplified by John Paul II’s statements. But, the memories of what was done in the past still grates on the Jews.
 
Well, perhaps there could be a PIETA (Jesus in the arms of His Mother) which would incidentally be very appropriate for the Pope who had such a devotion to the Blessed Mother.

The only difficulty I have with this whole issue is that there is a very fine line between honest concern for the feelings of others (the Jewish people) and an inappropriate “kowtow” which implies a sort of acknowledgment, not of wrongdoing itself so much (and any Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist etc. is just as guilty of wrongdoing, and indeed on just as large–or small–a scale as any Christian), but of validating a wrong. The fact is, the cross ITSELF is a religious symbol and the cross ITSELF is a GOOD symbol, in fact, of the HIGHEST GOOD ever given to mankind. The fact that individuals or even large groups may have done wrong “under the symbol” so to speak, does not negate the intrinsic good of the symbol itself.

And, unfortunately, we run the risk of making “feelings” the ne plus ultra consideration, just as we see in our tender ‘pussyfooting’ around any sort of reasonable, rational statement or any teaching representing a truth, on the grounds that, while a statement might be TRUE, it shouldn’t be stated if it “HURTS SOMEONE’S FEELINGS”. . .as though truth is relative, or subjective, or doesn’t matter in the face of somebody’s subjective emotions!

Far be it from me to wish to inflict deliberate or malicious hurt on anyone, but as has been pointed out by many more intelligent than I, it is far more hurtful to deny a person the truth s/he needs for eternal life because it “makes them feel uncomfortable, hurt, angry, etc.”–and let them go to eternal dam-ation because we were too “tender” of their FEELINGS on this earth!

Too many people today are virtual tyrants, ranting and raving that others are homophobes, bigots, bible thumpers. . .or from the other POV hedonists, harlots or godless. . .and then wailing and crying that people should stop hurting their FEELINGS, should consider their FEELINGS. . .and never say a word about absolutes like truth. Truth is only truth if it doesn’t HURT somebody’s FEELINGS, it seems.
 
If they don’t want to crosses, they don’t have to buy the stamps. If a Catholic asked that the minorah (sp?) not show on a stamp, oh my, that would be a terrible thing to suggest.

And I’m not going to spend my life pussy-footing around the bush with Jews or anyone else because of what they suffered in the past. We should be upset people for killing our Jesus, but we don’t gripe about that all day, now do we?

Stop looking back and start moving forward.
 
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Zachary:
If they don’t want to crosses, they don’t have to buy the stamps.
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They’re proposed Israeli stamps. Are you saying that the Israeli government should print the stamps anyway and then tell that to their citizens?
 
Yes. There should be no comprimise. I understand the feelings, the hurt, but it wasn’t JP2 who did it, it wasn’t Jesus or the Cross that did it. It was people. So, exclude people from the stamp, but not the cross. All or none.
 
Be interesting to see how Poles react to this. Poland has requested, repeatedly, that Israel extradite Shlomo Morel to face trial for crimes against humanity. Israel refuses on the grounds that the statute of limitations has expired.
 
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Zachary:
Yes. There should be no comprimise. I understand the feelings, the hurt, but it wasn’t JP2 who did it, it wasn’t Jesus or the Cross that did it. It was people. So, exclude people from the stamp, but not the cross. All or none.
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Yes, that’s what some Israelis are proposing. Eliminate the cross or don’t print the stamp.
 
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David_Paul:
Be interesting to see how Poles react to this. Poland has requested, repeatedly, that Israel extradite Shlomo Morel to face trial for crimes against humanity. Israel refuses on the grounds that the statute of limitations has expired.
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What does this case have to do with the proposed postage stamp?
 
Eliminate the cross or don’t print the stamp.
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Since it is an Israeli commemorative proposal, they certainly have the right to choose either of the above. But IMO if they are into that “either-or” mindset, they would be better off not to print the stamp if they can’t dissociate the “symbol of the cross” from their “shuddering” over deeds “gone by”, and associate it with the person of a man who loved instead of a label which described a single facet of their personality. JP saw Jews not as “Catholic haters” or “Christian opponents” or even as “victims” of the above, but as elder brothers and sisters. He didn’t wince at a menorah and view it as a symbol of people who mostly stood by or actively participated in reviling and supporting the passion of Christ, and some of whose religious and political leaders have engaged in gross calumny of Christ and Christians ever since.

The person on that cross died not just for Catholics, not just for Christians, but for all–our Jewish brothers and sisters included. Those who were “unfairly attacked” by Christians, and those who were equally aided or saved by Christians too. Those who stoned Christians, and those who ignored them, and those who honestly couldn’t believe, but respected them.

God died for us all, rich or poor, Christian or non, good or evil, black, white and everything in between. On that cross. It might make us uncomfortable. . .whether from the fact that we believe in that death, or whether we DON’T. . .but the feeling is just that, a “feeling”. . .and does not make the truth more or less than the truth because of that “feeling”.

So either acknowledge that the Pope acted in “persona Christi” of that Man who died on the Cross, no matter what other individuals have done in the name of that Cross, or don’t acknowledge him (the Pope) at all. One cannot separate Christ from His Cross, nor His Vicar from Christ. . .JMO.
 
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Richardols:
No. They respect him enough to want to issue a stamp honoring him, but many Jews are leery of displaying the symbol of the religion whose followers, both Catholics and non-Catholics, have persecuted Jews over the centuries.
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Boloney, and pigs can fly with geese right? Get real and stop jumping to irrational conclusions.
 
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