Keeping a Cross Off Stamp Commemorating Pope

[Lisa_N]

If the cross is a symbol of Christian persecution of Jews, is it not also a symbol of Jewish complicity in Jesus death on said cross? There are no angels in this play. Although I think both Jews and Christians should have gone past the finger pointing stage, it seems some either wish to dwell in the past or have found a Constitutional right never to have negative feelings.

It seems silly to object but IMO no cross, no stamp. How does it honor the Holy Father and a great man of world peace to ignore the very thing he lived and died for?

Lisa N

 

[Trelow]

Wow this is stupid.

Lets honor someone by ignoring everythign they stood for.

A stamp of JP the Great with out a cross is like a stamp of Ghandi driving an Abrams, or Moses munching down on a pulled pork sandwich, or Muhammad setting up a nativity scene.

 

[Richardols]

bones_IV:

Boloney, and pigs can fly with geese right? Get real and stop jumping to irrational conclusions.

What conclusions? You deny that Christians have persecuted Jews in the past, and that they might have some reason to be leery of the symbol of those persecutors?

 

[Richardols]

Lisa N:

If the cross is a symbol of Christian persecution of Jews, is it not also a symbol of Jewish complicity in Jesus death on said cross?

Didn’t the Church put the blame for the Crucifixion on the Romans rather than on the Jews?

It seems silly to object but IMO no cross, no stamp. How does it honor the Holy Father and a great man of world peace to ignore the very thing he lived and died for?

I agree. I wonder how the Israeli authorities will decide.

 

[Lisa_N]

Richardols:

Didn’t the Church put the blame for the Crucifixion on the Romans rather than on the Jews?.

As I said, no angels in this play. I think in today’s environment it’s more “PC” to blame the Romans entirely. But on their own do you really think they would have singled out one ‘street preacher?’ After all the Romans are long gone and can’t cause problems. Good old Pontius Pilate doesn’t get the same pass he used to in the history books. So give that ol’ Bible a read and you’ll find a few “Judeans” who may have had a thing or two to do with the crucifixion. And wasn’t it the reason that there was such a kerfluffle about the Passion—that it blamed the Judeans?

Look I am not trying to rehash history. Both Christians and Jews have plenty to answer for. But it’s in the PAST. Can we move on? I mean how many thousand years has it been?

Richardols:

I agree. I wonder how the Israeli authorities will decide.

Most Israelis are secular rather than practicing Jews. Philisophically they probably couldn’t give a rat’s patooty but they may think it’s a good idea to mollify the rabid Rabbi.

Lisa N

 

[mommy]

I thought we were** ALL** at fault for Jesus dying on the cross. Past present and future. I have never understood this argument by Jews that we blame them. Physically, yes there were Jews and Romans. But spiritiually - the whole reason he was even there, was because of all of us. This is much bigger than Jew/Roman. I’ve never thought of it in terms of “oh those Jews killed Jesus, they’re bad” That’s just laughable to me.

 

[David_Paul]

mommy:

I thought we were** ALL** at fault for Jesus dying on the cross. Past present and future. I have never understood this argument by Jews that we blame them.

All my life I heard stories about Catholic kids taunting Jewish classmates as being “Christ killers.”

Never thought to ask a Catholic about it. Assumed the stories were true. Catholics were taught that and kids picked it up as kids do. Since coming on the internet I discovered how wrong I was. When I thought about it, I never heard those stories from Catholics. Always from the media.

And I would have heard it too. Hung out with some rather… ahem…outspoken Catholics of Sicilian descent and they never, ever said anything like that or tossed out a slur of any kind.

 

[Richardols]

David_Paul:

All my life I heard stories about Catholic kids taunting Jewish classmates as being “Christ killers.”

Never thought to ask a Catholic about it. Assumed the stories were true. Catholics were taught that and kids picked it up as kids do. Since coming on the internet I discovered how wrong I was. When I thought about it, I never heard those stories from Catholics. Always from the media.

And I would have heard it too. Hung out with some rather… ahem…outspoken Catholics of Sicilian descent and they never, ever said anything like that or tossed out a slur of any kind.

Such did go on. But, sure, probably far less than reported and not among every ethnic Catholic group.

 

[bones_IV]

Richardols:

What conclusions? You deny that Christians have persecuted Jews in the past, and that they might have some reason to be leery of the symbol of those persecutors?

I was saying boloney to the idea that the cross shouldn’t be on the stamp. Furthermore, I do not deny the fact that there were Christians who persecuted Jews. But putting up crosses on stamps is not anti-Semitism. I’m not indifferent to what Jews suffer.

 

[Richardols]

bones_IV:

But putting up crosses on stamps is not anti-Semitism.

You’re right. It isn’t. But, apparently it’s enough of a problem for the Israelis to consider not issuing the commemorative stamp.

I say either show the cross or don’t issue the stamp.

 

[Lisa_N]

Richardols:

You’re right. It isn’t. But, apparently it’s enough of a problem for the Israelis to consider not issuing the commemorative stamp.

p.

Don’t know if you can conclude “the Israelis” are objecting. We have what one outspoken Rabbi making a stink? When the Passion came to our town there was this huge kerfluffle and various panel discussions about whether or not the movie was anti-Semitic. Some of the Rabbis in the area were literally foaming at the mouth over the movie, others said it was clearly not anti-Semitic. There are going to be huge differences and considering the secular nature of most of Israel you have to wonder whether this guy is just a blowhard or whether this is really an issue for the majority.

Lisa N

 

[Yonnie]

Wasn’t Pope John Paul II wearing a cross when he visted Israel?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I say take what you get.

Whether for political expedience or to avoid offense, if they can tastefully show the Holy Father without a cross in the picture, what’s the big deal? Have we never seen a photo of him without it?

The following photo is probably blasphemous because it doesn’t show his cross. Hope nobody thinks this guy isn’t really Catholic or something.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0504/gallery.pope.travels/09.jordan.ap.jpg

This is the Jews honoring a Vicar of Christ. This isn’t something we get a chance to see every day. They think they can avoid controversy by keeping the cross out. We don’t want them to do it unless we make sure they have our logo in the picture? Do we need to rub their ancestors’ sins in their faces? They come to us and say that our leader was a great man, and we say, “yes, and you shall reflect on what you did to Him!”

Let’s act like we have some grace toward a people who just might be trying to show some respect fo our faith. We have enough enemies; we could use a few friends.

Alan

 

[David_Paul]

AlanFromWichita:

Whether for political expedience or to avoid offense, if they can tastefully show the Holy Father without a cross in the picture, what’s the big deal?

Precedent. Next year it will be something else and the rationale will be “Catholics didn’t say anything when the Pope was shown without a Cross so why do you want…(whatever)”

 

[AlanFromWichita]

David_Paul:

Precedent. Next year it will be something else and the rationale will be “Catholics didn’t say anything when the Pope was shown without a Cross so why do you want…(whatever)”

So do you view this postage stamp is a step toward insulting the papacy rather than showing respect to JPII?

Do you think this is all a ploy to remove Jesus from Christianity?

Amazing. What evil lurks in our own hearts that we see this in such a nefarious light?

Maybe you know something I don’t, for even paranoids have enemies.

Alan

P.S. Incidentally, I believe that the Holy Father himself would be pleased not that he was going to be put on a stamp, but that the Jews were to consider it at all. If they asked him not to wear his cross when he visited, then I’d think he might have a problem. Other than that, I never heard of a Church teaching that every photo of the Pope must be from such an angle that the cross is prominent, just in case some fool Jew saw it and thought we’d finally given up on Jesus. Are we supporting or thwarting JPII’s considerable efforts at engaging other religions?

From the way we’re reacting, you’d think they are going to use a photo of JPII defaced with a beard, a moustache and devil horns scribbled in.

 

[David_Paul]

AlanFromWichita:

Amazing. What evil lurks in our own hearts that we see this in such a nefarious light?
Maybe you know something I don’t, for even paranoids have enemies.

Don’t play the Freud Card with me. I know the schtick. You know exactly what I’m talking about by your mocking tone and the length of your reply.

Don’t mistake politeness for weakness. People do see letting things slide, compromise and apologies are turned into weapons to club Christians over the head. Wasn’t too long ago that the Interfaith Alliance tried to get final approval to the script of The Passion. When Gibson refused, the alliance tried to destroy him, his family and his movie.

Remember this?

Cute wasn’t it? As a gesture of good will, invite a neighbor to your home and get paid back by a request to search your basement for things you may have stolen from the neighbor.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

David_Paul:

Don’t play the Freud Card with me. I know the schtick. You know exactly what I’m talking about by your mocking tone and the length of your reply.

What shtick? Freud?

You sound like one of my jump-to-conclusions grade school teachers. “You know very well what you said young man.” I’m glad you know what I’m talking about. You see whatever you believe.

Mocking tone? Is that also what you think they are doing to JPII by putting him on a stamp? Mocking him? Is anybody who doesn’t agree with your apparent belief that every photo of the Holy Father MUST include a cross, if it’s to be used on a stamp in Isreal, mocking God or His Church somehow?

Don’t mistake politeness for weakness. People do see letting things slide, compromise and apologies are turned into weapons to club Christians over the head. Wasn’t too long ago that the Interfaith Alliance tried to get final approval to the script of The Passion. When Gibson refused, the alliance tried to destroy him, his family and his movie.

So since some Jews wish to rewrite history, other Jews should not use a photo of JPII without his cross showing?

Remember this?

Cute wasn’t it? As a gesture of good will, invite a neighbor to your home and get paid back by a request to search your basement for things you may have stolen from the neighbor.

I wasn’t familiar with this. Is this the same group who is protesting JPII’s photo?

I could go either way on this. Mocking…

Perhaps you’re right. Sounds like JPII was wrong. We had best just end any attempt at peaceful coexistence with these people.

Or not mocking…

There is one way in which I might be seeing your point. From this last post of yours, I hear a lot of bitterness toward the Jews. There is a long shot chance that I might be inconsistent on a sufficiently abstract level here. I said that Hanoi Jane should get out of the media and go away, because the mere mention of her name brings horror to those “Hilton” guests who suffered over her. Is this kind of the way you feel about the Jews – thanks but no thanks?

Alan

 

[Sir_Knight]

Trelow:

Wow this is stupid.

Lets honor someone by ignoring everythign they stood for.

A stamp of JP the Great with out a cross is like a stamp of Ghandi driving an Abrams, or Moses munching down on a pulled pork sandwich, or Muhammad setting up a nativity scene.

I completely agree. If you’re going to honor the man, than go ahead and honor the man and all that he stood for and represented. Otherwise, don’t even bother. JP2 without a cross is more of a insult to his memory than an act of honor. Don’t even bother.

 

[davy39]

It seems as though we are always being accused of persecuting somebody. The Jews, the indians, the blacks, the japanese, women, homosexuals, and the list goes on and on. Has anybody ever apologised for persecuting Catholics? If they have, I’ve never heard it. Either print the stamp with the cross, or don’t bother. Nobody really cares whether they do or not.

 

[bones_IV]

davy39:

It seems as though we are always being accused of persecuting somebody. The Jews, the indians, the blacks, the japanese, women, homosexuals, and the list goes on and on. Has anybody ever apologised for persecuting Catholics? If they have, I’ve never heard it. Either print the stamp with the cross, or don’t bother. Nobody really cares whether they do or not.

Good point, my fine fellow. I’ve never heard it either.