Keeping a Cross Off Stamp Commemorating Pope

[bones_IV]

JP2 without a cross is more of a insult to his memory than an act of honor. Don’t even bother.

Presicely, JP2 was head of the Roman Catholic Church, not the one world organization.

 

[alekzander]

How come I have the ability to look at the muslim crescent or a Jewish star and not think…hundreds of years ago those types of people did this or that to my ancestors,Some of these people have absolutely NO LIVES! always want to start controversy! So I guess John Pauls apology was not accepted…usually when you truely forgive someone you don’t keep throwing it back in their face. I choose not to paint all Jews with a broad brush,there are open minded Jews and then there are the Zionists-these remind me of the pharisee’s of Jesus day!

 

[alekzander]

The reason you always here about “white Judeo-christians” persecuting every race known to man is because it fits the liberal agenda-and who controls the media…zionist Jews! Just look at some of the statements by Steven Spielberg about Mel Gibson after he made the passion of the Christ…They said he would never work in that town again! Man with a reaction like that you would of thought he made a movie about a guy who rapes and murders babies and desecrated every Jewish site on earth! They have an agenda and don’t doubt it!

 

[alekzander]

John Paul would be offended by not having the cross on the stamp-John Paul was a servant of Christ, not some rock star or movie star.John Paul wished not to bring honor on himself only to Christ,The Cross is a symbol of the ultimate sacrifice and victory that Jesus won for us on Calvary-to not include some aspect of that into the stamp would go against everything that John Paul stood for!!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

John Paul is probably rolling in his grave with everything he tried to accomplish being undone here in this one thread.

This is the man that kissed the Quran.

If he doesn’t want to be on the stamp, it would be out of his own humility, not because he didn’t like the way the photo was shot or cropped.

Perhaps the stamps should be made to play the audio soundtrack from the Passion so there’s no way they can forget how horrid their ancestors are.

 

[oat_soda]

“Many of our people shudder at the sight of the cross, which opens wounds that have not yet healed over and reminds them of acts committed under this symbol.”

this reminds me of a sign that was taken down in new jersey that said “pork island wildlife managment area”. apparently, some jews found the word “pork” offensive and asked if they would take it down. later it was put back up.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I have no idea how much Jews hate us, but if the amount we seem to hate Jews is any indication, then maybe they really would be that vindictive to put a stamp of JPII showing a false characature.

I’ve decided this isn’t like the Jane Fonda thing. With Hanoi Jane, she is the actual person who directly aided and abetted the enemy. Next thing Catholics are going to lobby for reparations. Or is that completely not what all this vitriole is about?

Here’s one way to settle it. Let’s tell “W” there are WMD’s in Israel!

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

oat soda:

this reminds me of a sign that was taken down in new jersey that said “pork island wildlife managment area”. apparently, some jews found the word “pork” offensive and asked if they would take it down. later it was put back up.

Someone is always getting offended. Remember back in the days when Flinstones’ theme song had the words “we’ll have a gay ol’ time!” I heard some recent reruns of the old ones with the sound dubbed so that it’s more like “we’ll have a great ol’ time” or some other PC alternative.

 

[Trelow]

AlanFromWichita:

John Paul is probably rolling in his grave with everything he tried to accomplish being undone here in this one thread.

This is the man that kissed the Quran.

Eh, not everyone agrees that was entirely prudent.

If he doesn’t want to be on the stamp, it would be out of his own humility, not because he didn’t like the way the photo was shot or cropped.

Perhaps the stamps should be made to play the audio soundtrack from the Passion so there’s no way they can forget how horrid their ancestors are.

That would be great! You could push a button and it would say:
“Let his blood be on us and our children!”


wow, that wasn’t very nice was it?

 

[David_Paul]

AlanFromWichita:

I have no idea how much Jews hate us, but if the amount we seem to hate Jews. . .

Who is this “we” kimosabe?

I don’t see Christians in Federal Court everyday of the week trying to deny Jews their right to free exercise of religion.

Familiar with the “Mojave Cross?” It’s a war memorial in CA. One Jewish vet saw it and ran to court to have it covered with a tarp.

Know who sucessfully sued to overturn the “Choose Life” license plates in Louisiana? One rabbi and the National Council of Jewish Women. The NCJW argued in its complaint the law “advanced Christian fundamentalism.”

I don’t see Christians demanding final say on Jewish movies. Don’t see Christians demanding no taxpayer money go to the Simon Wiesenthal Center in LA (it receives millions and is fond of staging “debates” on Catholic involement in Nazism). I do see Jews runningto Federal court to stop Chuck Colson from receiving a dime in taxpayer money for his prison ministry.

Leo Pfeffer, lead lawyer for the American Jewish Congress, headed the drive to purge the public square of religion. In the 1960s, he boasted the lawsuits he won led to a “triumph of secular humanism” in America.

Tolerance is a two way street. So far only one side is practicing it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Trelow:

Eh, not everyone agrees that was entirely prudent.

That’s partly my point. We all talk about our allegiance to the Pope, but then we second guess what he does. Some Catholics who don’t think he should have been having dialogs with Jews and other religions will vilify other Catholics who don’t completely agree with his words on other issues. It sounds like there is more than one flavor of “cafeteria Catholic.”

That would be great! You could push a button and it would say:
“Let his blood be on us and our children!”

wow, that wasn’t very nice was it?

No it wasn’t, but it was pretty funny.

I’m pleased I could help drag someone else down to my level! It’s too much fun to be here by myself. :dancing:

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

David_Paul:

Who is this “we” kimosabe?

The “we” is a rhetorical peace offering I use sometimes instead of “you.” I find that sometimes people feel less “accused” that way, and like I’m in the boat with them and only trying to observe our poor situation so we can work together to get out.

What I meant was “you people really seem to hate Jews.” I said “we seem to hate Jews” so that I could stand accused with everyone else and not think I was trying to put myself over them. This is part of my “hate the sin, love the sinner” style I invoke. I love the sinner by identifying myself with him/her, even while standing with them while being accused by me!

Does that all make sense?

I don’t see Christians in Federal Court everyday of the week trying to deny Jews their right to free exercise of religion.

Familiar with the “Mojave Cross?” It’s a war memorial in CA. One Jewish vet saw it and ran to court to have it covered with a tarp.

Know who sucessfully sued to overturn the “Choose Life” license plates in Louisiana? One rabbi and the National Council of Jewish Women. The NCJW argued in its complaint the law “advanced Christian fundamentalism.”

I don’t see Christians demanding final say on Jewish movies. Don’t see Christians demanding no taxpayer money go to the Simon Wiesenthal Center in LA (it receives millions and is fond of staging “debates” on Catholic involement in Nazism). I do see Jews runningto Federal court to stop Chuck Colson from receiving a dime in taxpayer money for his prison ministry.

Leo Pfeffer, lead lawyer for the American Jewish Congress, headed the drive to purge the public square of religion. In the 1960s, he boasted the lawsuits he won led to a “triumph of secular humanism” in America.

OK, so there’s a lot of jerkhead Jews. This NCJW and other organizations; are they driven centrally by any Jewish authority, or does Judaism even have such an authority?

They must not all be like that, as I have heard some really cool Jews on talk radio. Have you ever heard “the priest and the rabbi” segment on the Imus in the Morning show?

By giving these examples of Jews who choose to be a PITA, are you suggesting that the stamp project is actually a scheme to dishonor JPII? If it is, showing him without a cross doesn’t seem to dishonor him too badly. Yes, if it is airbrushed out of there to artificially remove his cross, but if these people are actually trying to reach out, wouldn’t it be prudent for their leaders to pick a camera angle or cropping such that it would “ease” their people into it gradually?

If you’re waiting for them to denounce their faith and enter into RCIA before they can show some respect to the Pope, then we’ll be waiting a long time, and we are certainly not honoring this Quran-kissing Pope.

The reason I’m still being a bit tentative here is that I don’t keep much track of the Catholic-Jew situation. From what I have learned about politics, I know enough not to completely dismiss even a seemingly paranoid accusation. That is why I asked whether we have reason to believe that this specific act – the stamp thing – is suspicious.

Tolerance is a two way street. So far only one side is practicing it.

Which side would that be? Clearly not the side mostly being articulated in this thread. Would it be the side that is offering an ostensible olive branch, or the side which insists on the whole tree?

Alan

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Well, the fact of the matter is that the Pope is Catholic, and the cross (or better yet, crucifix) is a symbol of our Catholic Faith.

If anyone wants to honor a man who served over a decade of his life as the primary shepherd of the Catholic Church, they should not insist that his image be separated from the message he bore: that Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, died upon a cross to save us from our sins.

JPII spent his life proclaiming that message and exemplifying the love of Christ. To denounce the cross is to denounce Christ’s sacrifice for us. I don’t think JPII would be cool with that.

Better that they not honor the man at all, if they’re not willing to show respect toward That which his life exemplified: the Cross of Christ.

 

[swampfox]

Richardols:

They’re proposed Israeli stamps. Are you saying that the Israeli government should print the stamps anyway and then tell that to their citizens?

Let’s see, by your rationale, a stamp honoring Israel or some famous Israeli humanitarian, should not contain a picture of the star of David because a Palestinian American or even a Farrakanite would find it offensive. Again oi vey.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Panis Angelicas:

Well, the fact of the matter is that the Pope is Catholic, and the cross (or better yet, crucifix) is a symbol of our Catholic Faith.

Yes, it is a symbol. Sometimes spiritual directors take away that symbol from their directees if they become too attached to it.

If anyone wants to honor a man who served over a decade of his life as the primary shepherd of the Catholic Church, they should not insist that his image be separated from the message he bore: that Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, died upon a cross to save us from our sins.

Really, then, we need to make sure the postage stamp recites the entire Creed in five languages when squeezed. We want to make sure that anybody who honors this man knows exactly what he stands for, right? I mean, what if we show the cross but fail to show that Jesus is part of a Trinity – something the Israelis don’t have?

Besides, maybe they are not honoring his message, but honoring the man. If I create a stamp honoring Martin Luther King, does that presuppose I buy into every one of his political and religious views?

JPII spent his life proclaiming that message and exemplifying the love of Christ. To denounce the cross is to denounce Christ’s sacrifice for us. I don’t think JPII would be cool with that.

Denounce is when we put that symbol in a bottle of urine in an art museum. Avoiding depicting the biggest sore that the Christian/Jewish split has and shoving it in their faces is denouncing the Jews.

They say, “hello, we’d like to tell you what a great man your Pope is. Heck, in a different circumstance maybe I’d even learn more about Catholicism.”

We reply, “study this! bwahahaha! Don’t you realize this is what we’re about? When are you going to apologize and admit we’re the ones who are right?”

Better that they not honor the man at all, if they’re not willing to show respect toward That which his life exemplified: the Cross of Christ.

Sigh. I suppose when JPII kissed the Quran, you think he must have embraced Islam (or whatever religion the Quran is).

You just don’t seem to get it. JPII spent his life creating bridges to other religions without the need for those religions to adopt each others’ beliefs. This stamp sounds like a fruit of his work that we would thwart because they didn’t say “with sugar on it” along with “pretty please.”

You would thwart his efforts, which does not honor the man.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Here are some other photos of Pope JPII and Benedict that would definitely NOT be suitable for a postage stamp. I double dog dare Israel to mock our Pope by using any of these photos, but I’m warning them… there will be hell to pay.

OTOH, these popes really need to quit allowing their photos to be taken in these non-Catholic poses where their crosses aren’t showing. Someone might think they don’t believe in the Catholic message.

http://wordsfree.org/christmaspope.jpg
Here the beloved late Pope is shown without a cross. Travesty.
http://wordsfree.org/benedict.jpg
It’s not just JPII who gets harassed by photographers bent on showing their non-Catholic side.
http://wordsfree.org/pope8.jpg
This one says it all. The Pope is obviously grieving over how this photo will be used to imply he was not really Catholic.

For the bottom photo: ©"L’Osservatore Romano" photo from the book John Paul II: A Light for the World. Copyright must be reflected in downloading, printing, and/or redistributing of photo.

If Israel tries to put any of these on a postage stamp, I say enough is enough; let’s nuke 'em.

Alan

 

[alekzander]

Alan-you just don’t get it do you! John Paul did all of the great things he did through CHRIST,not of himself,he prayed daily for the spirit to guide him-There was no ME in John Paul,how come you cannot grasp that concept! So does it make any sense to you now that if we are going to honor John Paul in anyway we must Honor The FATHER,SON,and HOLY SPIRIT-they led his life.I,ve never seen one saint or disciple who took credit for anything he did-they were merely humble servants,and that’s the way they wanted to be remembered-they wanted to lead us to Jesus not themselves! You are looking at this like John Paul was some government official or something.John Pauls whole life was about the CRUCIFIED Christ! No cross…no stamp!!!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

alekzander:

Alan-you just don’t get it do you! John Paul did all of the great things he did through CHRIST,not of himself,he prayed daily for the spirit to guide him-There was no ME in John Paul,how come you cannot grasp that concept! So does it make any sense to you now that if we are going to honor John Paul in anyway we must Honor The FATHER,SON,and HOLY SPIRIT-they led his life.I,ve never seen one saint or disciple who took credit for anything he did-they were merely humble servants,and that’s the way they wanted to be remembered-they wanted to lead us to Jesus not themselves! You are looking at this like John Paul was some government official or something.John Pauls whole life was about the CRUCIFIED Christ! No cross…no stamp!!!

No, I don’t get “it,” and I hope I don’t catch whatever disease this is.

So you don’t think they should commemorate JPII because he was a religious leader and not a political leader? That’s silly, too, because he most certainly was a political leader as the head of a sovereign nation.

You don’t think they should take a photo without a cross because the cross was central to his message? Then JPII should never have allowed himself to be photographed that way at all. This is a postage stamp, for crying out loud, not a theological summary of Catholicism.

Why are they honoring JPII anyway? To make us angry?

If a conservative U.S. congressman offered one of the above photos for a U.S. stamp commorating JPII, would you loudly protest and say they are blasphemous because they do not show his cross?

If John Paul thought the way the majority posting here does, then he never would have forgiven the person who killed him, never would have kissed the Quran, and never would have even talked to the Jews, let alone reach out to them in any way.

So far it seems that the Jews are behaving in a more brotherly way than the Christians. I have no doubt there are plenty of hateful Jews, too, but we Christians claim to be of a better breed. They will know we are Christians by our love – indeed. Let peace begin with me – right.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

If you want to see an example of how to be gracious, check out the recent letter from the Jews to the Holy Father, as reported by Zenit:

zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=64934

It’s a nicer tribute to JPII then what I see in a lot of U.S. media.

Notice they bring up numerous points where they can commend the Holy Father, without getting into the issue that we have different beliefs about Jesus. We do not honor Jesus or JPII by scoffing at these people.

Summarizing:
JPII’s life = inclusive
Thumbing nose at stamp because of camera angle = exclusive

Alan

 

[bones_IV]

AlanFromWichita:

No, I don’t get “it,” and I hope I don’t catch whatever disease this is.

So you don’t think they should commemorate JPII because he was a religious leader and not a political leader? That’s silly, too, because he most certainly was a political leader as the head of a sovereign nation.

You don’t think they should take a photo without a cross because the cross was central to his message? Then JPII should never have allowed himself to be photographed that way at all. This is a postage stamp, for crying out loud, not a theological summary of Catholicism.

Why are they honoring JPII anyway? To make us angry?

If a conservative U.S. congressman offered one of the above photos for a U.S. stamp commorating JPII, would you loudly protest and say they are blasphemous because they do not show his cross?

If John Paul thought the way the majority posting here does, then he never would have forgiven the person who killed him, never would have kissed the Quran, and never would have even talked to the Jews, let alone reach out to them in any way.

So far it seems that the Jews are behaving in a more brotherly way than the Christians. I have no doubt there are plenty of hateful Jews, too, but we Christians claim to be of a better breed. They will know we are Christians by our love – indeed. Let peace begin with me – right.

Alan

baloney! The fact that the cross is removed from the picture itself was wrong. And then represent the idea of having a picture of JPII with no cross showing with the cross taken off agenda. You must think that the Pope is leader of the one world organization don’t you? Given your liberal interpretation of JPII don’t you see how inconsistent your viewpoint is?