Key in the Tabernacle - what would you have done?

[Laetus]

The key is left in the Tabernacle during so that if the priest or one of EMHC’s doesn’t have enough hosts during communion, more can be easily retrieved.

That makes absolutely no sense. The reposed ciborium should be brought to the altar during the Agnus Dei.

 

[agapewolf]

That makes absolutely no sense. The reposed ciborium should be brought to the altar during the Agnus Dei.

Where did you get that rule from? Don’t see it in the GIRM.

In fact, the girm says that care should be taken that all should receive from the hosts consecrated at the same mass. Bringing it out at the Agnus dei doesn’t follow that.

Either way, the tabernacle still has to be opened during mass, a couple of times.

 

[Laetus]

It’s very easy actually. The key goes in the tabernacle before the first of 4 masses in a row. Sometimes the deacon, sometimes the priest counts hosts before the first mass. During the mass, sometimes the priest sometimes the deacon goes to the tabernacle to put the hosts back after communion. After mass, sometimes the priest, sometimes the deacon (or a different upcoming deacon) goes to the tabernacle to count hosts once again (our pastor is adamant about communion count at each mass). Tossing back and forth the key would be ridiculous, unnecessary, and silly. It would cause several unnecessary trips back and forth between the sacristy and sanctuary to find out who has the key to get it— with not a lot of time in between masses and many other tasks to take care of in between. Sometimes the priest runs back to the rectory to get a bite, or 5 minutes by himself, or take a break while the other priest is celebrating mass. How many times a priest would absent mindedly keep it in his pocket, therefore there being a huge problem during mass when the priest needs to put the hosts back in the tabernacle, but can’t because the key isn’t there.

I dont’ understand why this is so hard to understand, or why this long explanation was even necessary.

What a terrible process you just outlined. People are actually accessing the tabernacle simply to count hosts because your “pastor is adamant about communion count at each mass?” Are you being serious? I wonder what that says to those who watch the process? Are they getting a relative measure (“ciborium is 1/3 full”) or are they actually counting the individual hosts? Why couldn’t the number be noted before the ciborium was returned to the tabernacle? There’s one less trip right there. That information could then easily be conveyed to the person who sets up for the next Mass.

The correct action is to treat the key control with some seriousness. Set-up a system so it’s not left in the tabernacle or somebody’s pocket. If you want some ideas, PM me. That’s obviously not going to happen in most parishes that would do something as wrong as leaving the key in the tabernacle to begin with until something serious happens. That’s desperately sad.

 

[agapewolf]

What a terrible process you just outlined. People are actually accessing the tabernacle simply to count hosts because your “pastor is adamant about communion count at each mass?” Are you being serious? I wonder what that says to those who watch the process? Are they getting a relative measure (“ciborium is 1/3 full”) or are they actually counting the individual hosts? Why couldn’t the number be noted before the ciborium was returned to the tabernacle? There’s one less trip right there. That information could then easily be conveyed to the person who sets up for the next Mass.

The correct action is to treat the key control with some seriousness. Set-up a system so it’s not left in the tabernacle or somebody’s pocket. If you want some ideas, PM me. That’s obviously not going to happen in most parishes that would do something as wrong as leaving the key in the tabernacle to begin with until something serious happens. That’s desperately sad.

“People” being the deacon or the priest, as I said in my post. Please read what I actually write.
You count hosts before mass, you count them after. Therefore you have a count of how many received communion during.

There is nothing “terrible” about this process at all. It’s very useful information.

You can’t count hosts in the middle of mass. It takes awhile.

 

[Laetus]

Where did you get that rule from? Don’t see it in the GIRM.

In fact, the girm says that care should be taken that all should receive from the hosts consecrated at the same mass. Bringing it out at the Agnus dei doesn’t follow that.

Either way, the tabernacle still has to be opened during mass, a couple of times.

Bringing the ciborium out at the Agnus Dei would in no way limit the ability to distribute the hosts confected that that Mass. So that’s a red herring.

The flow of the Mass is important. When there is even a possibility of requiring hosts from the tabernacle I have never not seen the ciborium brought to the altar during the Agnus Dei. If you wanted to get super technical you could place hosts from the tabernacle in the dispensing ciboria first and then cover them with newly consecrated hosts but there would be no need for that. The Church is telling us not to consecrate a tabernacle full of hosts like they used to in the old days with only the priest getting a “fresh” host. The Church is telling us to consecrate what we need for the Mass being celebrated with a limited number in reserve for the sick or homebound. It is not in any way inferring that consecrated hosts from a previous Mass are in any way inferior.

 

[Laetus]

“People” being the deacon or the priest, as I said in my post. Please read what I actually write.
You count hosts before mass, you count them after. Therefore you have a count of how many received communion during.

There is nothing “terrible” about this process at all. It’s very useful information.

You can’t count hosts in the middle of mass. It takes awhile.

Why not simply count hosts at the end of Mass and note it? (Collect that data and it could be of great pastoral value to your pastor.) One less opening of the tabernacle and no excuse to leave the key in it. There cannot be THAT many people accessing the tabernacle in between for hospital/home visits.

 

[agapewolf]

Bringing the ciborium out at the Agnus Dei would in no way limit the ability to distribute the hosts confected that that Mass. So that’s a red herring.

The flow of the Mass is important. When there is even a possibility of requiring hosts from the tabernacle I have never not seen the ciborium brought to the altar during the Agnus Dei. If you wanted to get super technical you could place hosts from the tabernacle in the dispensing ciboria first and then cover them with newly consecrated hosts but there would be no need for that. The Church is telling us not to consecrate a tabernacle full of hosts like they used to in the old days with only the priest getting a “fresh” host. The Church is telling us to consecrate what we need for the Mass being celebrated with a limited number in reserve for the sick or homebound. It is not in any way inferring that consecrated hosts from a previous Mass are in any way inferior.

You were making up a rule that isn’t there, and stating it as if it were something that was fact.

Not true.

 

[agapewolf]

Why not simply count hosts at the end of Mass and note it? One less opening of the tabernacle and no excuse to leave the key in it. There cannot be THAT many people accessing the tabernacle in between for hospital/home visits.

Home visits have absolutely nothing to do with it. You are completely missing the point.

The hosts are counted immediately AFTER mass. The counting of hosts takes awhile, it cannot be done during mass. It is done on the altar over the corporal. It is done by the deacon or priest. There is no need to limit opening of the tabernacle or limiting the key being in there, because it isn’t a problem. You are creating a problem to solve when there isn’t one.

 

[Laetus]

You were making up a rule that isn’t there, and stating it as if it were something that was fact.

Not true.

As I said, the flow of the Mass is important. For someone having to access the tabernacle while distributing communion is a sign of poor planning. You should already know if that’s something likely to happen. Just out of curiosity, if an EMHC runs out of hosts, do they access the tabernacle themselves during communion or do they ask a cleric for assistance?

 

[Laetus]

Home visits have absolutely nothing to do with it. You are completely missing the point.

The hosts are counted immediately AFTER mass. The counting of hosts takes awhile, it cannot be done during mass. It is done on the altar over the corporal. It is done by the deacon or priest. There is no need to limit opening of the tabernacle or limiting the key being in there, because it isn’t a problem. You are creating a problem to solve when there isn’t one.

Are you serious? That’s really is bad practice. I thought I had heard it all. Suggest to your pastor that the ushers note now many people are receiving communion from now on. You can even buy them some of those clickers. What you describe is just not right.

 

[agapewolf]

As I said, the flow of the Mass is important. For someone having to access the tabernacle while distributing communion is a sign of poor planning. You should already know if that’s something likely to happen. Just out of curiosity, if an EMHC runs out of hosts, do they access the tabernacle themselves during communion or do they ask a cleric for assistance?

You sitting here waiting to criticize the practice of my parish… you are just waiting for me to tell you that the EMHC goes himself, but sorry to disappoint you on another criticism. No, an EMHC goes to another EMHC or deacon to get some of their hosts first. WHen completely out, the deacon or priest goes to the tabernacle.

Our practices follow the GIRM.

In one statement, you say the hosts should be counted during mass, then you say the flow of the mass is important. You can’t have it both ways. There is no problem here. our practice is completely fine, acceptable, works, efficient, and is safe.

 

[Laetus]

You sitting here waiting to criticize the practice of my parish… you are just waiting for me to tell you that the EMHC goes himself, but sorry to disappoint you on another criticism. No, an EMHC goes to another EMHC or deacon to get some of their hosts first. WHen completely out, the deacon or priest goes to the tabernacle.

Our practices follow the GIRM.

In one statement, you say the hosts should be counted during mass, then you say the flow of the mass is important. You can’t have it both ways. There is no problem here. our practice is completely fine, acceptable, works, efficient, and is safe.

I can’t believe anyone (cleric or layperson) would take the ciborium from a tabernacle and empty its contents onto a corporal in order to get a count of the number of hosts in repose. That is a stunningly bad practice. There are other ways to determine how many people received communion.

 

[agapewolf]

I can’t believe anyone (cleric or layperson) would take the ciborium from a tabernacle and empty its contents onto a corporal in order to get a count of the number of hosts in repose. That is a stunningly bad practice. There are other ways to determine how many people received communion.

I didn’t say they did. DO NOT say things I did not say. Please read what I actually write.

 

[Laetus]

I didn’t say they did. DO NOT say things I did not say. Please read what I actually write.

So what do they do exactly? Poke through the contents of the ciborium? That still sounds horrible as they are other ways to ascertain how many people received holy communion. It’s certainly no reason to leave the key in the tabernacle.

 

[agapewolf]

So what do they do exactly? Poke through the contents of the ciborium? That still sounds horrible as they are other ways to ascertain how many people received holy communion. It’s certainly no reason to leave the key in the tabernacle.

You are grossly overdramatic with words here. It is not “horrible” to count hosts.

How is this so difficult to understand? I REALLY have to tell you how to count items of a container without dumping them out? Really?

And it isn’t the only reason the key is left. You are making such broad statements and judgements about a situation with your own rules that you make up as you go along. Please read what I actually write. Please.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

It’s very easy actually. The key goes in the tabernacle before the first of 4 masses in a row. Sometimes the deacon, sometimes the priest counts hosts before the first mass. During the mass, sometimes the priest sometimes the deacon goes to the tabernacle to put the hosts back after communion. After mass, sometimes the priest, sometimes the deacon (or a different upcoming deacon) goes to the tabernacle to count hosts once again (our pastor is adamant about communion count at each mass). Tossing back and forth the key would be ridiculous, unnecessary, and silly. It would cause several unnecessary trips back and forth between the sacristy and sanctuary to find out who has the key to get it— with not a lot of time in between masses and many other tasks to take care of in between. Sometimes the priest runs back to the rectory to get a bite, or 5 minutes by himself, or take a break while the other priest is celebrating mass. How many times a priest would absent mindedly keep it in his pocket, therefore there being a huge problem during mass when the priest needs to put the hosts back in the tabernacle, but can’t because the key isn’t there.

I dont’ understand why this is so hard to understand, or why this long explanation was even necessary.

I just wonder if you could know you have enough hosts by how full the cups are, say 3/4 full. That would save counting them several times. It seems most parishes are going to have a regular number of parishioners at each mass. I don’t know, but I don’t see how “counting” them before mass is going to ensure you have enough.

I do understand there is a lot to prepare for before and in between masses.

 

[agapewolf]

I just wonder if you could know you have enough hosts by how full the cups are, say 3/4 full. That would save counting them several times. It seems most parishes are going to have a regular number of parishioners at each mass. I don’t know, but I don’t see how “counting” them before mass is going to ensure you have enough.

I do understand there is a lot to prepare for before and in between masses.

Everyone is completely missing the point. It’s not about “knowing we have enough hosts”

it’s about the number. The pastor wants to know our numbers of communicants at mass.

 

[Cathryn]

I just wonder if you could know you have enough hosts by how full the cups are, say 3/4 full. That would save counting them several times. It seems most parishes are going to have a regular number of parishioners at each mass. I don’t know, but I don’t see how “counting” them before mass is going to ensure you have enough.

I do understand there is a lot to prepare for before and in between masses.

For my parish, individual counting is usually done when there are small numbers of hosts in the ciborium in the tabernacle. There is a real difference if there is 3 host, or 12 hosts, or 25 hosts, or 50 hosts. This can make a big difference in how many new hosts are to be put out. Remember we want the hosts to be used that are consecrated at the Mass the people are attending and predominately use those. At the same time, we need to keep some host in reserve for during the week for the sick, and nursing homes, prison visits, etc. If I know there are 25 hosts in the tabernacle, and I know how many are needed to get through the week, for the Communion to the sick, etc. , I can estimate that I can fill the ciborium to the top for the weekend Mass. If I have a half full ciborium in the tabernacle, or ¾ full, I want to put much less. If I have a week day Mass and only 10 consecrated hosts in the tabernacle, and I need at least 20 to get through the week for the sick, and I have 35 people receiving at this Mass I will need to put out 45 hosts. If I don’t count we could run short of consecrated hosts, or end up reserving too many, and need to use those instead of giving people hosts consecrated at the Mass they are attending. My pastor says he would rather have too few than too many since he can always break hosts. If we have too many we are giving those to the communicants rather than newly consecrated host from the Mass the people are attending. This counting is done to stay within the rubrics of the Church and not rely on just using what is in the tabernacle, rather than what is being consecrated at that particular Mass. Mass attendance also is not very uniform. There are many factors that can throw this off. Looking in the tabernacle is always important before Mass. As I have said earlier, what I do before Mass has been done in front of my Bishop as he prays in front of the Blessed Sacrament an hour before Mass. He was here for Confirmation just two weeks ago. I had no problem counting the hosts in front of him, and placing the key in the tabernacle. He is one of the most orthodox bishops in the country, and is known for making any corrections that are needed. My pastor and bishop are both canon lawyers and are faithful to the GIRM and all the rubrics.

 

[Stylites]

As I have said earlier, what I do before Mass has been done in front of my Bishop as he prays in front of the Blessed Sacrament an hour before Mass. He was here for Confirmation just two weeks ago. I had no problem counting the hosts in front of him, and placing the key in the tabernacle. He is one of the most orthodox bishops in the country, and is known for making any corrections that are needed. My pastor and bishop are both canon lawyers and are faithful to the GIRM and all the rubrics.

Excellent post. Being a sacristan who quietly goes about her business serving the priest who serves the bishop is a lot more efficacious to the faith than being a Tabernacle Vigilante standing on a street corner rending one’s garments and decrying how thoughtless, cavalier and conniving are those who actually serve.

 

[holyghost]

Excellent post. Being a sacristan who quietly goes about her business serving the priest who serves the bishop is a lot more efficacious to the faith than being a Tabernacle Vigilante standing on a street corner rending one’s garments and decrying how thoughtless, cavalier and conniving are those who actually serve.

I’ve just been watching this thread for the last couple days, and I really think this sums it up perfectly. I will keep those of you who serve in my prayers…thank you so much for your dedicated work.