Killing Animals for "Sport"

[bigfootbob]

really? - hsus is a very worthy organization… And the peta ‘joke’ guess it is funny to some? People for the ethical treatment of animals - their goal is that animals be treated ethically - seems consistent with our teaching - even if one objects to their methods.

Wanting ethical treatment for animals is good, but some organizations (like PETA and HSUS) take it to far and try to protect the life of every animal out there.

one of the things that always leaves me a bit uneasy is when a thread like this goes in a direction where some feel it is ok to ‘make fun’ of people who have made a choice to remove animals and their products from their diet on what they (read i) believe is an ethical issue.

I don’t want to sound over sensitive, because i realize it is not a universal choice - and should perhaps require a thicker skin - but really, this is important to me. This is an issue that i really care about, and i know is an outgrowth of my faith journey.

I understand that i have to explain to the meat eaters who may feel judged that i am not judging them - and always try to do so with respect… I think it seldom goes in the direction of those of who have chosen to be vegetarian / vegan actually making fun of the choice to eat meat / hunt etc… We may discuss this - try to offer a point of view, but i haven’t seen much that is a tone of ridicule

I respect your choices and your views, and I am sorry if I have said anything insensitive. I don’t think anyone was making fun vegans/vegetarians. We were making fun of organizations that don’t, well, always have a very good view on some issues.

 

[TOP]

One of the things that always leaves me a bit uneasy is when a thread like this goes in a direction where some feel it is OK to ‘make fun’ of people who have made a choice to remove animals and their products from their diet on what they (read I) believe is an ethical issue.

The thread started when “some” started to push their own conscience on others, presenting biased evidence from slanted and questionable sources, trying to override the teachings of St. Paul concerning foods served that have not been sacrificed to idols. Not to mention the vision that St. Peter had on the rooftop and commanded to eat what he had seen, compelling him to correct the Apostle’s concerning what was seen lawfully clean or not…

 

[severus68]

We all NEED to eat food to live. You can only go for so long without eating FOOD. There are many food choices available to all of us, though you will find more or less of certain items within certain cultures, or more or less of certain items at certain times of the year etc. So we have the NEED to eat food, but do not have the NEED to eat specific foods, and if there are ethics to be considered in making a choice, then those should be considered before partaking in the food.

You NEED to eat, but do you NEED to eat a Twinkie?
You NEED to eat, but should you eat that stolen candy bar?
You NEED to eat, but should you eat animal products that were produced inhumanely?

Now if in all three examples you ***were ***starving, then your NEED would probably take precidence over the other factors. If not, then you would likely make a different choice.

Is it legitimate to consider how your food choice contributes to pollution? To suffering? If you are not in a state of starvation, and can consider and weigh the impact of your choice, do you have an ethical obligation to do so? Or is it just about personal taste?

If one candy bar comes wrapped in an eco-friendly, biodegradable wrapper, and the other comes in packaging that will not bio-degrade for generations–should you consider the impact of your choice?

Should a hunter kill an animal for the enjoyment of killing, if that is the primary motivation? Is that a justifiable need? If the meat he procurs is secondary to his joy of killing? And the hunter who hunts for the challenge, the ego, the trophy to hang on the wall–are these justifiable reasons to cause an animal to suffer?

I would define hunting for “sport”, as hunting for the main objective of playing a game to kill animals. A sports hunter may or may not use any meat from the animal, but his main objective is ***not ***hunting for food, or conservation, or protection. And one who hunts exotic trophies can rarely disguise the purpose of his hunting–it’s all about the head on the wall. I can begin to understand the mixed reasons that people choose to hunt deer–but the sportman who shells out big bucks to go on a “canned hunt” for an exotic head to add to his collection???

Very comprehensively put.

 

[severus68]

PETA is about criminalizing hunting and driving farmers out of business by imposing laws that would give animals the same rights as people.

Since when has PETA the power to enact laws? If such laws were passed in fact, sufficient number of people would have supported them.

 

[severus68]

Really? - HSUS is a very worthy organization… And the PETA ‘joke’ guess it is funny to some? People for the ETHICAL Treatment of Animals - their goal is that animals be treated ethically - seems consistent with our teaching - even if one objects to their methods.

One of the things that always leaves me a bit uneasy is when a thread like this goes in a direction where some feel it is OK to ‘make fun’ of people who have made a choice to remove animals and their products from their diet on what they (read I) believe is an ethical issue.

I don’t want to sound over sensitive, because I realize it is not a universal choice - and should perhaps require a thicker skin - but really, this is important to me. This is an issue that I really care about, and I know is an outgrowth of my faith journey.

I understand that I have to explain to the meat eaters who may feel judged that I am not judging them - and always try to do so with respect… I think it seldom goes in the direction of those of who have chosen to be vegetarian / vegan actually making fun of the choice to eat meat / hunt etc… we may discuss this - try to offer a point of view, but I haven’t seen much that is a tone of ridicule

Perhaps it is just meant as a joke, and perhaps if this were on the back fence thread it would be more understandable - but this one is on the social justice thread So that is my two cents — sorry if I’m over reacting.

I do agree with you.

 

[severus68]

The thread started when “some” started to push their own conscience on others, presenting biased evidence from slanted and questionable sources, trying to override the teachings of St. Paul concerning foods served that have not been sacrificed to idols. Not to mention the vision that St. Peter had on the rooftop and commanded to eat what he had seen, compelling him to correct the Apostle’s concerning what was seen lawfully clean or not…

It is really not fair to say the OP is pushing his/her own conscience on others. Everyone has to choose according to your own conscience.

The eating of food sacrificed to idols has nothing to do with this thread.

With respect, please read the commentaries on that passage and the passage in the following chapter. The vision is with regard the non Jews and this is not meant to be taken literally.

 

[chain]

The problem with PETA and other like minded organizations and people is they want to raise the dignity of Animals (or the environment, or sometimes even plants) to human levels. In doing so, they inadvertently make Humans no better than all of the rest of creation.

The problem is - we are. We are unique in that we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are unique among corporal beings in that we have a immortal soul. We are unique among immortal spiritual beings in that we are graced to share in God’s creation through procreation.​

Anyway we can choose to disagree about hunting - do you think it is immoral for Priests to fish as well?

 

[severus68]

The problem with PETA and other like minded organizations and people is they want to raise the dignity of Animals (or the environment, or sometimes even plants) to human levels. In doing so, they inadvertently make Humans no better than all of the rest of creation.

The problem is - we are. We are unique in that we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are unique among corporal beings in that we have a immortal soul. We are unique among immortal spiritual beings in that we are graced to share in God’s creation through procreation.​

Anyway we can choose to disagree about hunting - do you think it is immoral for Priests to fish as well?

Yes humans are created in the image of God. We also have free will and we are sinners. Animals have no free will and they cannot sin. If we show compassion to animals, we make ourselves better persons. If we degrade animals we degrade ourselves.

 

[pete_29]

It is really not fair to say the OP is pushing his/her own conscience on others. Everyone has to choose according to your own conscience.

OK, I’ve chosen. I’m going deer hunting tomorrow. Anybody want to come along?

 

[4elise]

PETA is about criminalizing hunting and driving farmers out of business by imposing laws that would give animals the same rights as people.

How so? I am only familiar with their work to bring changes to factory farming. What has been your specific experience or campaign that you object to?

 

[pete_29]

" A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy." Ingrid Newkirk, President, PETA

 

[JaneGrey]

I realize that on this thread posters look at things from a Catholic point of view but I dont think the worst thing of PETA and other animal rights organisations is that they try to raise animals to the level of humans. Most of these organisations are secular and they have the right to campaign that animals have the same rights as humans. If anyone believes this to be against Catholic teaching, then by all means do not follow what these orgs are saying. No one is forcing you to. They are of course wrong to go through illegal channels to get their way. However especially if they have never been exposed to catholic teaching, you cant blame them. Saying that they are immoral for believing animals are equal to humans is like saying a person is necessarily and consciously immoral for following a non-Catholic religion.

 

[4elise]

Wanting ethical treatment for animals is good, but some organizations (like PETA and HSUS) take it to far and try to protect the life of every animal out there.

I respect your choices and your views, and I am sorry if I have said anything insensitive. I don’t think anyone was making fun vegans/vegetarians. We were making fun of organizations that don’t, well, always have a very good view on some issues.

Thank you tons bigfootbob for the respect! Appreciated more than you may ever know!

I know that PETA has a bad reputation, but I guess I am not familiar with it enough to understand where the bad rep comes from - I do not like many of their advertisments - they are trying to appeal to young folks, not my taste, but I have only experience with reading what they write about factory farms - an issue that I feel really strongly about.

I think I have heard others draw the difference between animal rights and animal welfare organizations - and maybe this is where the difference is with Catholic teaching
I think Catholic teaching speaks strongly for animal welfare - but placing humans in the rightful place - as stewards naturally places humans above animals (obviously because we are made in God’s image) and I think this can cause friction with the animal rights people who interpret this to mean that we think animals can be mistreated…

Blessings!

 

[4elise]

The problem with PETA and other like minded organizations and people is they want to raise the dignity of Animals (or the environment, or sometimes even plants) to human levels. In doing so, they inadvertently make Humans no better than all of the rest of creation.

The problem is - we are. We are unique in that we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are unique among corporal beings in that we have a immortal soul. We are unique among immortal spiritual beings in that we are graced to share in God’s creation through procreation.​

Anyway we can choose to disagree about hunting - do you think it is immoral for Priests to fish as well?

First to respond I agree and don’t think anyone on CAF has suggested anything different about raising animals to the same level as man - so if this is the position of PETA obviously this is not in keeping with our teaching - maybe it is inadvertent - maybe it is really what they think. I think it was severus68 who said that yes - it is our unique role as beings with free will, and souls that can call us to demonstrate mercy to the rest of creation.

Some have suggested that priests be held to a higher standard - but I think if it is something one feels is appropriate then they should be comfortable having their priests do this also -if someone (like me) has issue with hunting and fishing - it would be difficult to see a priest involved in ‘sport’ hunting or fishing if the food were not used.

 

[4elise]

I realize that on this thread posters look at things from a Catholic point of view but I dont think the worst thing of PETA and other animal rights organisations is that they try to raise animals to the level of humans. Most of these organisations are secular and they have the right to campaign that animals have the same rights as humans. If anyone believes this to be against Catholic teaching, then by all means do not follow what these orgs are saying. No one is forcing you to. They are of course wrong to go through illegal channels to get their way. However especially if they have never been exposed to catholic teaching, you cant blame them. Saying that they are immoral for believing animals are equal to humans is like saying a person is necessarily and consciously immoral for following a non-Catholic religion.

A very good point. We can evangelize PETA!

The ethical treatment of animals is something to be advocated for - but not elevating them to the same level as people!

I sometimes think that when an organization takes a radical position it is kind of like a pendulum - they become the far to the left position that helps pull people to the center… if that makes sense.

 

[4elise]

" A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy." Ingrid Newkirk, President, PETA

WOW thanks Pete - I researched this sentence and Pete29 I must say I can certainly see why people following this would view anything that came from PETA as offensive. Especially since it is from their leadership.

So… perhaps this is where we can see the distinction - PETA an animal rights organization
HSUS an animal welfare organization - they seem to have very different positions -

There is a Catholic animal welfare organization as well - Catholic Concern for Animals all-creatures.org/ca/- so perhaps this is where we can all find the right balance.

 

[CWBetts]

WOW thanks Pete - I researched this sentence and Pete29 I must say I can certainly see why people following this would view anything that came from PETA as offensive. Especially since it is from their leadership.

So… perhaps this is where we can see the distinction - PETA an animal rights organization
HSUS an animal welfare organization - they seem to have very different positions -

There is a Catholic animal welfare organization as well - Catholic Concern for Animals all-creatures.org/ca/- so perhaps this is where we can all find the right balance.

Exactly. I firmly believe that animals should not be abused. Even those who raise livestock understand this. It is not productive to abuse animals, that is why farms that are successful in the long term treat animals humanely.

 

[vz71]

So your point??? All pretty much says the same thing, whatever dictionary you are looking at

Exactly. “pretty much the same thing”
Not the same.

 

[4elise]

Exactly. I firmly believe that animals should not be abused. Even those who raise livestock understand this. It is not productive to abuse animals, that is why farms that are successful in the long term treat animals humanely.

CWBetts - very glad we’ve found the common ground!

May I point to a couple of things that I’ve learned and see if you would agree this is something that we should address, even if you would consider them an anomaly:

1. de beaked laying chickens packed four to a cage measuring just 16 inches wide farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/eggs/
2. corporate hog factories replacing traditional hog farms - kept in gestation crates - made into piglet factories - farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/pork/
3. traditional diaries are being replaced with intensive ‘dry lot’ dairies - again putting profits above the welfare of the animals farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/dairy/
4. issues about poultry farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/poultry/

Anyway - I know that there are traditional farmers - good Catholics who continue to strive to do things in keeping with the understanding of how we should care for creation - but sadly greed by big agribusiness - does not.

 

[CWBetts]

CWBetts - very glad we’ve found the common ground!

May I point to a couple of things that I’ve learned and see if you would agree this is something that we should address, even if you would consider them an anomaly:

1. de beaked laying chickens packed four to a cage measuring just 16 inches wide farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/eggs/
2. corporate hog factories replacing traditional hog farms - kept in gestation crates - made into piglet factories - farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/pork/
3. traditional diaries are being replaced with intensive ‘dry lot’ dairies - again putting profits above the welfare of the animals farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/dairy/
4. issues about poultry farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/poultry/

Anyway - I know that there are traditional farmers - good Catholics who continue to strive to do things in keeping with the understanding of how we should care for creation - but sadly greed by big agribusiness - does not.

And something to be understood is that the inhumane “factory farms” are the exception, not the rule. All I can say is that 4-H and FFA are a blessing, teaching young people the correct way to farm