Killing Animals for "Sport"

[Marfran]

You have insinuated that anyone who is not a vegan is committing sin. You “forbid eating foods” That is how one can identify a heretic, or at least one of the signs. You have invented this belief. Again, the commentaries only say that the number, and the reason for Jesus eating the fish is symbolic at that point. They do not state that the whole episode is a metaphor. Jesus ate meat. God actually commanded it in the Passover. So stop pushing your self-righteous, misbegotten agenda.

You know CW, I have read your posts here and in other threads–and you are very articulate and have a good head on your shoulders. Animals/meat/hunting seems to be topics that you have difficulty with, however. I suggest “cooling your jets” a little (and I mean this in the kindest way, as a constructive criticism). Instead of throwing words around like “insinuate,” “accuse,” “heretic,” “self-righteous,” etc. try debating the points and offering links, information, Biblical passage, or other, to strengthen your arguments. Brendan does a great job of presenting his argument. The idea on these threads is to discuss, debate, learn, and share. Not to beat each other up. If you hear something that doesn’t sit right with you, counter it with information of your own.

 

[TheWalsh]

I think the idea of hunting and fishing being intrinsically immoral is out of bounds. It may be more an indication of how far from the reality of nature many of us now live. One can be fond of animals, and careful not to subject them to cruel treatment, and be a hunter and fisherman, or a cattle rancher, a chicken farmer or a Shepard without any compunction. Many working class people living in the country help support their families by hunting, fishing and raising animals for food.The deer one does not shoot may very well be torn to shreds and eaten alive by coyotes this winter. Nature is red of tooth and claw.
It is ironic that we spend much time on this topic while the events political, throughout the nation and the world, devalue human life more and more with each passing day. It is also counterproductive to make people feel guilty for engaging in morally neutral and even innocent pursuits, when sin crouches at the door in so many indisputable ways.
I do respect the rights of gentle and sensitive souls to avoid so called bloodsports but they should respect the rights of honorable hunters, fishers and farmers. I may sound mildly annoyed, and that concerns me. So, I will close with saying God Bless You, and may the month of November be filled with joy. While out in the woods, I will remember the souls of my departed relatives, and hunting companions.

 

[CWBetts]

You know CW, I have read your posts here and in other threads–and you are very articulate and have a good head on your shoulders. Animals/meat/hunting seems to be topics that you have difficulty with, however. I suggest “cooling your jets” a little (and I mean this in the kindest way, as a constructive criticism). Instead of throwing words around like “insinuate,” “accuse,” “heretic,” “self-righteous,” etc. try debating the points and offering links, information, Biblical passage, or other, to strengthen your arguments. Brendan does a great job of presenting his argument. The idea on these threads is to discuss, debate, learn, and share. Not to beat each other up. If you hear something that doesn’t sit right with you, counter it with information of your own.

Arguments for eating meat should be unnecessary. The fact that Homo sapiens is omnivorous is self-evident. Our jaw structure, dentition, and digestive tract suggest an omnivorous diet. The fact that Humanity was given animals for food is in the Scriptures (Gen 9). Furthermore, the prohibition against killing (the fifth commandment) does not extend to animals, as they are a resource to be used responsibly (hence the treatment of animals falls under the seventh commandment in th Catechism). Also to demand the prohibition of certain tyoes of food is an identifying marker for heretical sects. (2 Tim 4). In short, veganism/vegetarianism may be a practice that there is nothing “wrong” with per se, but to try to enforce such a diet as more moral than a meat based diet has no grounds in Scripture or tradition, and is inherently unhealthy (particularly vegans).

 

[maryj]

We all NEED to eat food to live. You can only go for so long without eating FOOD. There are many food choices available to all of us, though you will find more or less of certain items within certain cultures, or more or less of certain items at certain times of the year etc. So we have the NEED to eat food, but do not have the NEED to eat specific foods, and if there are ethics to be considered in making a choice, then those should be considered before partaking in the food.

You NEED to eat, but do you NEED to eat a Twinkie?
You NEED to eat, but should you eat that stolen candy bar?
You NEED to eat, but should you eat animal products that were produced inhumanely?

Now if in all three examples you ***were ***starving, then your NEED would probably take precidence over the other factors. If not, then you would likely make a different choice.

Is it legitimate to consider how your food choice contributes to pollution? To suffering? If you are not in a state of starvation, and can consider and weigh the impact of your choice, do you have an ethical obligation to do so? Or is it just about personal taste?

If one candy bar comes wrapped in an eco-friendly, biodegradable wrapper, and the other comes in packaging that will not bio-degrade for generations–should you consider the impact of your choice?

Should a hunter kill an animal for the enjoyment of killing, if that is the primary motivation? Is that a justifiable need? If the meat he procurs is secondary to his joy of killing? And the hunter who hunts for the challenge, the ego, the trophy to hang on the wall–are these justifiable reasons to cause an animal to suffer?

I would define hunting for “sport”, as hunting for the main objective of playing a game to kill animals. A sports hunter may or may not use any meat from the animal, but his main objective is ***not ***hunting for food, or conservation, or protection. And one who hunts exotic trophies can rarely disguise the purpose of his hunting–it’s all about the head on the wall. I can begin to understand the mixed reasons that people choose to hunt deer–but the sportman who shells out big bucks to go on a “canned hunt” for an exotic head to add to his collection???

I’ll apologize up front if this has been said already…I have not read through the whole thread…I belong to a long long line of hunters. I know multiple people who travel the world hunting trophies. When you speak of the ethics of making a choice…my response is this, when a person goes to Africa to hunt lions, you don’t just jump in a jeep and go hunting. Guides take you to where the lion is. These guides are all about conservation of the heards. Animals that are weak, have genetic issues that will weaken the herds if allowed to breed, and the old are most likely what is hunted. The herds or prides are kept strong and healthy by selective hunting. In turn the villages are provided the meat from the animals,and the money from these hunts, is infused back into their economies. How much more would the people of these areas suffer if the money from these hunters was not there. Deer hunting is the same way, thin the herd and the stronger survive to make a healthier herd. Sick, old and dieseased animals do nothing but endanger the herds. So would it be better for the PEOPLE of these areas to have a healthy economy, food to eat and a job to support their families…or for these animals to die a natural death (which makes the animal suffer)…So IMO a justifiable need can be painted with a very broad brush.

 

[Marfran]

Arguments for eating meat should be unnecessary.

This thread is not about eating meat! It is about hunting and/or killing animals for “sport” or the “game” of it. Meat eaters should be able to have an opinion about this, as well as non-meat eaters Yes, I do realize that non-meaters and meat eaters have a few side discussions here. (CW, I think that one of the biggest arguments against eating meat, is that much of our meat comes from factory farms–yes, and I recall you live in an area of small local farms, not the big corporate ones. The issue is how animals are treated in these CAFO’s–and I think that there is a necessary argument to be made there–but that’s another thread.)

The fact that Homo sapiens is omnivorous is self-evident. Our jaw structure, dentition, and digestive tract suggest an omnivorous diet…

Actually, I would present physiological evidence to the contrary, and* I have *many times in many other threads…but that really is another topic. I am not brushing you off. If you want to get into this should we start another thread??? As I recall (from another thread) a real life vegan gave you a hard time, so if it’s a topic you want to explore, let me know.

The fact that Humanity was given animals for food is in the Scriptures (Gen 9). Furthermore, the prohibition against killing (the fifth commandment) does not extend to animals, ***as they are a resource to be used responsibly ***(hence the treatment of animals falls under the seventh commandment in th Catechism).

Yes, we are to use animals responsibly, and killing for “sport” is not responsible is it???

 

[CWBetts]

This thread is not about eating meat! It is about hunting and/or killing animals for “sport” or the “game” of it. Meat eaters should be able to have an opinion about this, as well as non-meat eaters Yes, I do realize that non-meaters and meat eaters have a few side discussions here. (CW, I think that one of the biggest arguments against eating meat, is that much of our meat comes from factory farms–yes, and I recall you live in an area of small local farms, not the big corporate ones. The issue is how animals are treated in these CAFO’s–and I think that there is a necessary argument to be made there–but that’s another thread.)

Actually, I would present physiological evidence to the contrary, and* I have *many times in many other threads…but that really is another topic. I am not brushing you off. If you want to get into this should we start another thread??? As I recall (from another thread) a real life vegan gave you a hard time, so if it’s a topic you want to explore, let me know.

Yes, we are to use animals responsibly, and killing for “sport” is not responsible is it???

If you recall my earlier posts, I have been one to say that killing for the sake of killing is not acceptable. If the meat is either consumed by the hunter, or donated to someone who will use it, or in the case of Ohio, the number of deer have become an issue for crop farmers and traffic safety, so something must be done to control the population given the absence of natural predators in this area. (Geez what a clunky sentence! )

 

[vz71]

I am glad CWBetts mentioned it.

It bears repeating.

Animals are a commodity to be used responsibly.

 

[maryj]

Killing for sport “can” be responsible, as I have shown in my last post.

 

[4elise]

Arguments for eating meat should be unnecessary. The fact that Homo sapiens is omnivorous is self-evident. Our jaw structure, dentition, and digestive tract suggest an omnivorous diet. The fact that Humanity was given animals for food is in the Scriptures (Gen 9). Furthermore, the prohibition against killing (the fifth commandment) does not extend to animals, as they are a resource to be used responsibly (hence the treatment of animals falls under the seventh commandment in th Catechism). Also to demand the prohibition of certain tyoes of food is an identifying marker for heretical sects. (2 Tim 4). In short, veganism/vegetarianism may be a practice that there is nothing “wrong” with per se, but to try to enforce such a diet as more moral than a meat based diet has no grounds in Scripture or tradition, and is inherently unhealthy (particularly vegans).

You are taking on several different issues here - so I’ll try to address your last point —

• a vegetarian / vegan diet is actually very, very healthy - of course if you are convinced otherwise there is little that I could offer that could convince you otherwise - but here is the abstract from the ADA -

eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/advocacy_933_ENU_HTML.htm

Abstract
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

 

[Lynxdk]

If you recall my earlier posts, I have been one to say that killing for the sake of killing is not acceptable. If the meat is either consumed by the hunter, or donated to someone who will use it, or in the case of Ohio, the number of deer have become an issue for crop farmers and traffic safety, so something must be done to control the population given the absence of natural predators in this area. (Geez what a clunky sentence! )

Clunky, but covers it nicely, methinks.

 

[4elise]

I am glad CWBetts mentioned it.

It bears repeating.

Animals are a commodity to be used responsibly.

Something I value so much is how well it is said by the Holy Father - and this seems to have a different position:

“…degrading of living creatures to a** commodity** seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible,” Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[CWBetts]

You are taking on several different issues here - so I’ll try to address your last point —

• a vegetarian / vegan diet is actually very, very healthy - of course if you are convinced otherwise there is little that I could offer that could convince you otherwise - but here is the abstract from the ADA -

eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/advocacy_933_ENU_HTML.htm

A vegan diet is absolutely unhealthy. Without supplements, it is very easy to fall short on proteins, calcium, iron, trace metals, and amino acids. A single egg, on the other hand gives you all the amino acids you need. If a vegan diet is so healthy, why is it not recommnded for pregnant/nursing mothers, the elderly, or children?

 

[athansor]

A vegan diet is absolutely unhealthy. Without supplements, it is very easy to fall short on proteins, calcium, iron, trace metals, and amino acids. A single egg, on the other hand gives you all the amino acids you need. If a vegan diet is so healthy, why is it not recommnded for pregnant/nursing mothers, the elderly, or children?

I’m a healthy nursing mother and athlete on a vegan diet. Who is not recommending it for nursing mothers? I’ve never heard that. The China Study cites a lot of peer reviewed research that seems to indicate that a vegan diet is very healthy, as does Dr. Joel Furhman in his work.
It’s easy to get enough protein, calcium, iron, etc. from my diet, which includes large amounts of leafy greens. I have to supplement B-12, but that’s it.

 

[CWBetts]

I’m a healthy nursing mother and athlete on a vegan diet. Who is not recommending it for nursing mothers? I’ve never heard that. The China Study cites a lot of peer reviewed research that seems to indicate that a vegan diet is very healthy, as does Dr. Joel Furhman in his work.
It’s easy to get enough protein, calcium, iron, etc. from my diet, which includes large amounts of leafy greens. I have to supplement B-12, but that’s it.

If you don’t supplement amino acids, you are harming your child. Giving a child a vegan diet should be considered child abuse. Kids need the complex proteins found in meat and animal-based food products.

 

[4elise]

A vegan diet is absolutely unhealthy. Without supplements, it is very easy to fall short on proteins, calcium, iron, trace metals, and amino acids. A single egg, on the other hand gives you all the amino acids you need. If a vegan diet is so healthy, why is it not recommnded for pregnant/nursing mothers, the elderly, or children?

Like all diets - one should always work to strive for balance - and if you read the link I provided you would see that a vegan diet is fine for anyone at any stage of life…

per the ADA:

Well-planned vegetarian diets **are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life **cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

As for the health benefits of eggs - I do know that again they can be part of some balanced diets - but there are certainly other sources of amino acids -

pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html has additional information about the issues of amino acids…

 

[4elise]

If you don’t supplement amino acids, you are harming your child. Giving a child a vegan diet should be considered child abuse. Kids need the complex proteins found in meat and animal-based food products.

Carl, this may be your opinion but it is just not true, and honestly saying - that this should be considered child abuse - is just inflamitory.

There is a great book - Becoming Vegan, by amazon.com/Becoming-Vegan-Complete-Adopting-Plant-Based/dp/1570671036

What is it that you believe is missing in a vegan diet? I would be happy offer more information for you that would clarify this for you.

Blessings

 

[athansor]

If you don’t supplement amino acids, you are harming your child. Giving a child a vegan diet should be considered child abuse. Kids need the complex proteins found in meat and animal-based food products.

Can you provide a cite before you accused me of child abuse? The doctor thinks my kid is very healthy.

 

[severus68]

If you don’t supplement amino acids, you are harming your child. Giving a child a vegan diet should be considered child abuse. Kids need the complex proteins found in meat and animal-based food products.

Again you are accusing not discussing.

 

[4elise]

Can you provide a cite before you accused me of child abuse? The doctor thinks my kid is very healthy.

The American Dietetic Association (per the post I provided) also agrees that a vegetarian / including a vegan diet is healthy:

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

 

[severus68]

You have insinuated that anyone who is not a vegan is committing sin. You “forbid eating foods” That is how one can identify a heretic, or at least one of the signs. You have invented this belief. Again, the commentaries only say that the number, and the reason for Jesus eating the fish is symbolic at that point. They do not state that the whole episode is a metaphor. Jesus ate meat. God actually commanded it in the Passover. So stop pushing your self-righteous, misbegotten agenda.

You need to reread what you type before posting. You are just being downright nasty. You are unable to put forward your position in a dscussive manner. You make offensive remarks instead.

There is nothing said about the reason for Jesus eating meat. I quote:_

“A group of Apostles have gone out to fish, following the lead of Peter. The author (writing 60 or 70 years later) wants to present Peter as leader of the newly formed church. As you know, John’s gospel is full of symbolism and today’s passage is an excellent example of this. Fishing symbolizes the Church’s movement to bring Good News to others. The boat symbolizes the Church into which Jesus wishes to gather people. The fishing is done at night, which in John’s Gospel, means unbelief or life without Jesus. Without Jesus, they catch no fish. At daybreak, Jesus appears and under his direction, an exceptionally big catch occurs. The obvious point is that successful evangelization only occurs when our efforts depend on Jesus. One hundred and fifty-three fish represent every type of fish. The Church is open to all kinds of people. The net does not tear despite the big load of fish. This is a reference to the unity of the Church. God’s Will is that the Church remains in unity despite its vast and diverse membership. The Lord is first recognized by “the Disciple Jesus loved,” John (love helps us to recognize Christ’s presence). The meal of bread and fish, prepared by Jesus, has obvious Eucharist overtones. Listen to the words of Jesus; “He took the bread” and “gave it” to them.”