G
Godscre
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Only the Holy Spirit will teach us if we ask.
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I
Indyann
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For those just joining the thread and do not want to read through pages and pages of posts;Only the Holy Spirit will teach us if we ask.
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/environmentalism
For those who say St. Francis was a vegetarian, this is what a noted Franciscan theologian has to say.
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZFRANECO.HTM
Q: There are those who say St. Francis was vegetarian.
—Father Iammarrone: Whoever says this, has read nothing of St. Francis’ life. In early biographies one reads that St. Francis said that if Christmas was on a Friday, the friars should be given a double ration of meat, and animals a double ration of hay, out of love for the Lord, who was born for us.
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Godscre
Guest
St. Francis didn’t live in the time of factory farms. I’m sure if he knew what was going on today, he would speak up at the least.For those just joining the thread and do not want to read through pages and pages of posts;
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/environmentalism
For those who say St. Francis was a vegetarian, this is what a noted Franciscan theologian has to say.
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZFRANECO.HTM
Q: There are those who say St. Francis was vegetarian.
—Father Iammarrone: Whoever says this, has read nothing of St. Francis’ life. In early biographies one reads that St. Francis said that if Christmas was on a Friday, the friars should be given a double ration of meat, and animals a double ration of hay, out of love for the Lord, who was born for us.
He once ate a few bites of a chicken, ‘he felt such remorse for the chicken that he had his companion tie a rope around him and drag him in the streets." from Christian Feldman’s "God’s Gentle Rebels, Great Saints of Christianity. St. Bonaventure, “Major and Minor Life of St. Francis” (stated in Vegetarian Christian Saints by Dr. Holly Roberts.
He lived the Gospel and would eat whatever was put in front of him not to offend people. St. Francis’ Rule of 1221, Chapter 3, states that in conformance with the Gospel, friars might eat any food put before them (as Luke 10.8 says). He did beg and would not want to harm animals. He was not a legalistic, but compassionate.
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CWBetts
Guest
Are you kidding me? Divorce was allowed due to hardness of heart. The allowance to eat meat was part of the Noahic Covenant, and just to remind you , he was the most righteous of his generation. You cannot compare the two.Yes, I’m aware of Genesis 9:3. God gives concessions, such as divorce, but it was not what He intended when He created us.
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Godscre
Guest
They were instructed not to eat it by God, they disobeyed – it was from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad. They were free to eat from all of the other trees.Are you kidding me? Divorce was allowed due to hardness of heart. The allowance to eat meat was part of the Noahic Covenant, and just to remind you , he was the most righteous of his generation. You cannot compare the two.
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CWBetts
Guest
I refuse to talk to someone who twists the Word of God and calls it “exegesis”. Eating meat was not the same as the divorce granted by Moses in Deuteronomy. This is self evident.They were instructed not to eat it by God, they disobeyed – it was from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad. They were free to eat from all of the other trees.
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Indyann
Guest
Do Dr. Holly Roberts’ qualifications trump that of a Franciscan scholar?St. Francis didn’t live in the time of factory farms. I’m sure if he knew what was going on today, he would speak up at the least.
He once ate a few bites of a chicken, ‘he felt such remorse for the chicken that he had his companion tie a rope around him and drag him in the streets." from Christian Feldman’s "God’s Gentle Rebels, Great Saints of Christianity. St. Bonaventure, “Major and Minor Life of St. Francis” (stated in Vegetarian Christian Saints by Dr. Holly Roberts.
He lived the Gospel and would eat whatever was put in front of him not to offend people. St. Francis’ Rule of 1221, Chapter 3, states that in conformance with the Gospel, friars might eat any food put before them (as Luke 10.8 says). He did beg and would not want to harm animals. He was not a legalistic, but compassionate.
“In order to clarify the legacy of the Italian saint in this area, ZENIT interviewed Father Luigi Iammarrone, one of today’s best-known Franciscan theologians. He is a professor at the St. Bonaventure department of theology, of the Minor Conventual Friars of Rome.”
I choose to believe the Franciscan scholar.
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Godscre
Guest
I’m not a follower of .St. Francis, I’m a follower of Jesus. Whatever he said or did, was between him and God. St. Paul didn’t even want people to follow him, but to follow God, which is what St. Francis wanted us to do also.Do Dr. Holly Roberts’ qualifications trump that of a Franciscan scholar?
“In order to clarify the legacy of the Italian saint in this area, ZENIT interviewed Father Luigi Iammarrone, one of today’s best-known Franciscan theologians. He is a professor at the St. Bonaventure department of theology, of the Minor Conventual Friars of Rome.”
I choose to believe the Franciscan scholar.
I
Indyann
Guest
What does that have to do with this thread?I’m not a follower of .St. Francis, I’m a follower of Jesus. Whatever he said or did, was between him and God. St. Paul didn’t even want people to follow him, but to follow God, which is what St. Francis wanted us to do also.
What does St. Paul have to with it?
M
Marfran
Guest
You have provided some good information here, Indyann. If anyone studies St. Francis they will notice the appreciation that he had for all of God’s creation, and the affinity he felt for his non-human brothers and sisters. St. Francis was a vegetarian for at least a portion of his life. He often struggled with his vow to poverty, and having to accept food offered to him. He did graciously accept food offered in the spirit it was offered in.For those just joining the thread and do not want to read through pages and pages of posts;
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/environmentalism
For those who say St. Francis was a vegetarian, this is what a noted Franciscan theologian has to say.
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZFRANECO.HTM
Q: There are those who say St. Francis was vegetarian.
—Father Iammarrone: Whoever says this, has read nothing of St. Francis’ life. **In early biographies **one reads that St. Francis said that if Christmas was on a Friday, the friars should be given a double ration of meat, and animals a double ration of hay, out of love for the Lord, who was born for us.
This quote of Father Iammarrone is the only quote I have seen used to refute St. Francis’ “status” as a vegetarian–which seems an odd thing that one would attempt to do. I have no idea why people find “vegetarianism” so threatening–as it has oft been a standard of high discipline throughout the ages.
St. Francis’ attitudes and sensitivities toward animals deserve a closer look, especially in light of conditions today, where we have all but forgotten that God is the wonderful Creator responsible for ALL. We treat animals today, in even more barbaric ways, than in the times in which St. Francis lived.
“If you have men who will exclude any of God’s creatures
from the shelter of compassion and pity,
you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.”
***St. Francis of Assisi ***
G
Godscre
Guest
It seems that you are picking and choosing what the Franciscan theologian writes instead of seeing the whole life of St. Francis.What does that have to do with this thread?
What does St. Paul have to with it?
Dr. Roberts only quoted something that was written about St. Francis.
I came into the church because of Fransicans and became a part of their community for a short while. I’m not pretending to be a scholar about St. Francis, but to pick one or two things out of his life and make a general statement, does not honor his life.
I just thought to mention about what St. Paul warned us about calling ourselves followers of others in 1 Cor. 1:12-13.
Peace,
Jan
H
holy_moly
Guest
Can you be more specific? i.e fox hunting by the gentry in the English countryside w/ a pack of hounds, or a father & son outing for deer in the wilderness?Is*** sports hunting ***ethical? Can we kill animals for the game of it?
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4elise
Guest
Is it really fair to say ‘practically’ in this regard?What you are stating is practically the philosophy of Peter Singer…that the capacity of being “sentient” is what gives an entity rights. There is the extreme slippery slope…human embryos, then might not be sentient, so would rank behind a monkey or mouse.
No. Humans are special and have rights because we are HUMAN,
Perhaps it is that for the Catholics who care about this issue (not Peter Singer) the slope slides the other way - bringing a greater understanding of the value of ALL life!
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4elise
Guest
On the topic of animal testing - (which I guess would be another topic) - what most object to is the multiple duplication of testing that - sometimes I know if you are like me — when they release the results of some test I feel like smacking my head and saying - "gee they could have skipped that test and just called me, or bigfootbob - we know that smoking AND drinking together are worse then either alone - DUH! —Would you rather have medical experiments tested on humans? It has to be tested on something. I don’t know what legal rights they get, but that’s crazy.
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Indyann
Guest
You are reading way more into my post than what it said. People come to this site looking for “Catholic” answers.It seems that you are picking and choosing what the Franciscan theologian writes instead of seeing the whole life of St. Francis.
Dr. Roberts only quoted something that was written about St. Francis.
I came into the church because of Fransicans and became a part of their community for a short while. I’m not pretending to be a scholar about St. Francis, but to pick one or two things out of his life and make a general statement, does not honor his life.
I just thought to mention about what St. Paul warned us about calling ourselves followers of others in 1 Cor. 1:12-13.
Peace,
Jan
The question of is it immoral hunt , the first link gives the “Catholic” answer.
The second link shows what a Franciscan theologian said about Francis’ statement about Christmas falling on Friday.(vegetarianism)
I did not say whether I agreed or disagreed.
I still don’t get what St. Paul has to do with anything.
St. Francis always had “followers”, and he always will.
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severus68
Guest
When Christsaid no to divorce and He as questioned about Moses allowing it, He said it was because the people were stubborn or words to that effect. The point is God has given concessions to fallen Man.And you know this because?
S
severus68
Guest
Good post. I have encountered hostility about my vegetarianism.You have provided some good information here, Indyann. If anyone studies St. Francis they will notice the appreciation that he had for all of God’s creation, and the affinity he felt for his non-human brothers and sisters. St. Francis was a vegetarian for at least a portion of his life. He often struggled with his vow to poverty, and having to accept food offered to him. He did graciously accept food offered in the spirit it was offered in.
This quote of Father Iammarrone is the only quote I have seen used to refute St. Francis’ “status” as a vegetarian–which seems an odd thing that one would attempt to do. I have no idea why people find “vegetarianism” so threatening–as it has oft been a standard of high discipline throughout the ages.
St. Francis’ attitudes and sensitivities toward animals deserve a closer look, especially in light of conditions today, where we have all but forgotten that God is the wonderful Creator responsible for ALL. We treat animals today, in even more barbaric ways, than in the times in which St. Francis lived.
“If you have men who will exclude any of God’s creatures
from the shelter of compassion and pity,
you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.”
***St. Francis of Assisi ***
No one can deny that St Francis had an affinity with and a fondness for animals, he even preached to the birds. Ihave read of him and his fellow brothers giving up their shelter for a donkey. He certainly gave “inferior” animals loving consideration.
Agreed. The original post question is far too broad.Can you be more specific? i.e fox hunting by the gentry in the English countryside w/ a pack of hounds, or a father & son outing for deer in the wilderness?
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Godscre
Guest
In Deborah Jone’s (who has a PhD in Animal Theology), “The School of Compassion: a Roman Catholic theology of animals” 2009 she states on p. 259:
The management of large numbers of wild animals can sometimes be devolved onto human beings, who have already destroyed the balance of nature by eliminating many of the natural predators. In which case, if the welfare of whole herds is threatened by either disease or over-population, it would be preferable to treat the sick animals and to remove excess numbers to other locations, but it is admitted that with some animals and in some conditions this is not possible. In which case, regretably, on a purely utilitarian basis, culling may be required of the weakest and sickest. This should be undertaken only by trained and authorized marksmen, and no element of entertainment or pleasure-seeking involved – for God’s creatures’ lives are being taken. Game-shooting and ‘recreational’ hunting are activities no Christian or humane person should engage in;80 although hunting for food – where other sources of protein are genuinely not available – would mitigate the culpability as it would come under the category of ‘self-defence’; one life taken so that another may survive."
80 See Fr. James Legge’s defence of hunting as a ‘natural, selective and humane way of managing the environment’, in his article ‘Animal Rights: a perspective on the hunting debate’, Faith 36.1 (Jan-Feb 2004). This is answered in an article by Deborah Jones in ‘Animal Rights: another perspective’, Faith 36.2 (Mar-Apr 2004).
Her book is excellent with references from the Church Fathers to present day, including the CCC (which she dissects theologically).
The management of large numbers of wild animals can sometimes be devolved onto human beings, who have already destroyed the balance of nature by eliminating many of the natural predators. In which case, if the welfare of whole herds is threatened by either disease or over-population, it would be preferable to treat the sick animals and to remove excess numbers to other locations, but it is admitted that with some animals and in some conditions this is not possible. In which case, regretably, on a purely utilitarian basis, culling may be required of the weakest and sickest. This should be undertaken only by trained and authorized marksmen, and no element of entertainment or pleasure-seeking involved – for God’s creatures’ lives are being taken. Game-shooting and ‘recreational’ hunting are activities no Christian or humane person should engage in;80 although hunting for food – where other sources of protein are genuinely not available – would mitigate the culpability as it would come under the category of ‘self-defence’; one life taken so that another may survive."
80 See Fr. James Legge’s defence of hunting as a ‘natural, selective and humane way of managing the environment’, in his article ‘Animal Rights: a perspective on the hunting debate’, Faith 36.1 (Jan-Feb 2004). This is answered in an article by Deborah Jones in ‘Animal Rights: another perspective’, Faith 36.2 (Mar-Apr 2004).
Her book is excellent with references from the Church Fathers to present day, including the CCC (which she dissects theologically).
K
KDB
Guest
On one level human beings are merely part of (the apex of) earth’s ecosystem.
On that level we still have a place in nature as a high-end predator. Taking game is part of our nature. Feeling satisfaction in fulfilling our nature is the way we (and all other living things) are wired up.
I personally don’t do it. I kill aliens on my computer when I feel that urge but hunting and feeding is one of the things we are built to do. Divorcing ourselves from that adds nothing to who we are. It only subtracts.
Also, “Animal Theology” ? Some of my best friends have had four feet and I find that joke in bad taste.
On that level we still have a place in nature as a high-end predator. Taking game is part of our nature. Feeling satisfaction in fulfilling our nature is the way we (and all other living things) are wired up.
I personally don’t do it. I kill aliens on my computer when I feel that urge but hunting and feeding is one of the things we are built to do. Divorcing ourselves from that adds nothing to who we are. It only subtracts.
Also, “Animal Theology” ? Some of my best friends have had four feet and I find that joke in bad taste.
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