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pnewton
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I’ll stick with the CCC and not some one who believes in such mythical, bizzare and new age concepts as animal theology. I have to agree with the previous poster. This is far outside the pale of what I accept.
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dprewett
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Every time I see PHD in something odd I think Wacko. You can get a PHD in bisexual studies now it is insain. Every time I watch a special that trys to show the church as ridiculas on the history chanel everyone has a PHD and they never say in what. God put animals on earth to feed man. Hunting is not ever a bed thing. Killing and leaving the animal to rot is I think sinfull in the sense that wasting a gift from god ie food is a sin. Many people need the resource and it is rotting away. My Grandfather and I use to shoot about 4 deera year. We would keep one and give the rest to the families in our rural town who really did hunt to eat.
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dprewett
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Killed a hog yesterday, It will taste great durring the Florida Georgia Game. Much better than store bought Meat.
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Ridgerunner
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I trust you’ll enjoy that pork. Best pork I ever had was due to a deal I made with a hillbilly. I bought the momma hog and paid for any mill feed. He raised the pigs up to butchering weight. He had this old pickup and after work he would go around to the food stores and get all the overage vegetables and fruit that they were going to throw away, and fed it to the hogs.
Unbelievably good!
Oh yes, to get back on topic, he and I didn’t kill them for sport.
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4elise
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And I’ll bet that wasn’t a factory farm either
Ridgerunner - you are unique in your access to non factory farmed meat! The majority of the US does not have that or the option to hunt for meat as an option.
But as you say - back to the topic at hand - certainly not killed for ‘sport’.
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holy_moly
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Any response Marfran?
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banarick
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I’m from rural Ohio and it is hard to find someone in our mostly Catholic County who does not hunt for sport. I am glad for it because we are close to nature and God.
I just pulled my favorite Catholic Men’s Quarterly , Winter / Spring 2007 and an interview with the "hunting Bishop Rene Henry Gracida (Bishop Emeritus of the Diocese of Corpus Christi) It is the fee for the hunting licenses that brought back the white tailed deer to Ohio. Our Department of Wildlife uses fishing license money to stock the lakes too. Yet the deer need to be culled here in the Western Preserve.
In Connecticut where my father still lives the animal rights people won’t allow hunting in his area and the deer starve because they have not been culled. I think that is cruel. Good wildlife management is necessary. Join a club like the Izzak Walton league if you really want to help nature and enjoy hunting.
Glad I am a country boy and not a city slicker anymore.
I just pulled my favorite Catholic Men’s Quarterly , Winter / Spring 2007 and an interview with the "hunting Bishop Rene Henry Gracida (Bishop Emeritus of the Diocese of Corpus Christi) It is the fee for the hunting licenses that brought back the white tailed deer to Ohio. Our Department of Wildlife uses fishing license money to stock the lakes too. Yet the deer need to be culled here in the Western Preserve.
In Connecticut where my father still lives the animal rights people won’t allow hunting in his area and the deer starve because they have not been culled. I think that is cruel. Good wildlife management is necessary. Join a club like the Izzak Walton league if you really want to help nature and enjoy hunting.
Glad I am a country boy and not a city slicker anymore.
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Marfran
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Originally Posted by bigfootbob
Again, that goes back to the definition of what hunting for sport is. I could say 95%, or I could say 3%.
Again, that goes back to the definition of what hunting for sport is. I could say 95%, or I could say 3%.
Isn’t that one of the things we are trying to work out here? What is the definition of hunting for “sport?” Is there a clear cut definition? Is all hunting equal??? It sounds like it isn’t all equal. Is the deer hunter who utilizes the animal that he killed different from the hunter of a “canned hunt” whose only interest is an exotic trophy head for the wall? Does primary motivation factor into what a “sports” hunter is? Are there hunters on this thread who call themselves “sportsmen” who may in fact, be something else?? Is the term misleading??? Do non-hunters get the wrong idea when they hear this term?
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holy_moly
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Marfran
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FYI: This post is in reference to the Deborah Jones book: The School of Compassion: A Roman Catholic Theology of Animals.
pnewton, I love ya, but before you dish the book, you might want to do at least a little research on the author and the content of the book. It is completely NOT mythical or new age. (It is a deeply Catholic book.) I started reading the book and haven’t finished because it is not a light read. It is very deep with scriptural quote, Church history, theological discussion, and forensic examinination.
It explores the history of the Church’s ideas about/toward animals. (And this includes the significant contributions by St. Thomas Aquinas–who was greatly influenced by Aristotle in this regard.) It covers significant readings from the Old and New Testaments. It covers other themes and influences on the Church, including Celtic monasticism, the spirituality of St. Francis, liturgies of the Eastern Catholic Churches, British Catholic tradition (which is more favorable to animals), etc.
There is a forensic examination of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the portion that pertains to animals. And the contemporary issues of stewardship and anthropocentrism are discussed as are key ethical theories. From the few pages of the book that I have read, it is evident that our current attitudes toward animals have changed through time, and in studying some of the history, analyses, and Church perspective, one is bound to think a little deeper about the current way that animals are treated/viewed in our industrialized society.
The author, Deborah Jones, is general secretary of the international organization Catholic Concern for Animals and a Fellow of the Oxford Centre for Animal Ethics. She has worked as editor of the Catholic Herald, deputy editor of Priests & People, is a writer and lecturer, and is a diocesan advisor for adult religious education. Her work is not even faintly New Age–and it is wrong to even suggest this. For anyone who is Catholic and has concerns about how animals are treated in our society, yet is really turned off by secular organizations like PETA, I recommend looking to the Christian and Catholic organizations and authors. ***Catholic Concern for Animals ***is an excellent organization.
amazon.com/School-Compassion-Deborah-M-Jones/dp/0852447310/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257010755&sr=8-1
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CWBetts
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This does not change the fact that she obviously mines the Catechism to try to find things that it does not say.
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Brendan
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FYI, Dr. Jones got her PhD from the University of Wales, a secular university whose theology department is affiliated with the Church of England.In Deborah Jone’s (who has a PhD in Animal Theology), “The School of Compassion: a Roman Catholic theology of animals” 2009 she states on p. 259.
She might have written a book with the words “Roman Catholic” in the title, but her theology is not Roman Catholic. In addition, she has notr sought or recieved a Licencate in Theology from the Church, nor submitted her work for an Imprimatur.
In short, her book is meaningless from a Catholic Theology perspective.
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Brendan
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And the first big clue that her degree is not in Catholic theology is that it is a PhD ( or Doctor of Philosophy).
A doctorate in Theology is an S.T.D ( Doctor of Sacred Theology). Even in the Anglican Church, her degree is in the wrong field, an Anglican Doctorate of Theology is a D.D (Doctor of Divinity)
So, at best Dr. Jones is a Philosopher, not a Theologian in any capacity.
And it also tell us one more thing, either the University of Wales has not been authorized by the Church of England to issue DD’s (which goes a long way to show the CoE’s trust of the University on theological matters), or Dr. Jones subject matter was too off the wall for even the Anglicans and they rejected it as a theological matter.
So I would not consider her an authority on any subject related to theology in general, let alone Catholic theology.
A doctorate in Theology is an S.T.D ( Doctor of Sacred Theology). Even in the Anglican Church, her degree is in the wrong field, an Anglican Doctorate of Theology is a D.D (Doctor of Divinity)
So, at best Dr. Jones is a Philosopher, not a Theologian in any capacity.
And it also tell us one more thing, either the University of Wales has not been authorized by the Church of England to issue DD’s (which goes a long way to show the CoE’s trust of the University on theological matters), or Dr. Jones subject matter was too off the wall for even the Anglicans and they rejected it as a theological matter.
So I would not consider her an authority on any subject related to theology in general, let alone Catholic theology.
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Godscre
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Thank you Marfran for posting the information. I’ve been in contact with the author, Deborah, for about 5 years who has worked for Catholic Concern for Animals for 10 years. She has a very good reputation with Clergy. We recently received the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI’s Apostolic Benediction for our 80th Anniversary.
Jan
Chair, Catholic Concern for Animals-USA
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fultonfish
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I think we can all agree that killing animals for sport is when nra members take their fifty caliber machine guns and wipe out a heard of deer and bunny rabbits and then drink beer and stuff.
That, at least, seems to be the perception or the gut reaction or the thinking (or what passes for thinking) by some people.
Fox hunting: foxes are predators that kill desirable species. As a “test consideration”, in Australia, foxes were imported specifically for the hunt. BUT, they turned out to do terrible damage to native species of birds and animals. SO, foxes ARE. in fact, pests.
There are LOTS of pest species around. Nutria and those nifty constricting snakes now at home in the Florida Everglades. Those snakes in Guam. Kill for sport. Go for it. Knock yourself out. Bring beer. Lots more pests that deserve hunting for sport. Rats. Roos. You name them. Every country has them.
Finally, the discussion of veganism and meat eating keeps getting interwoven.
So I looked up this:
Locusts as food:
Leviticus 11:22
Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.
Matthew 3:4
John’s clothes were made of camel’s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.
Mark 1:6
John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey.
So, it looks like John the Baptist was not vegan.
That, at least, seems to be the perception or the gut reaction or the thinking (or what passes for thinking) by some people.
Fox hunting: foxes are predators that kill desirable species. As a “test consideration”, in Australia, foxes were imported specifically for the hunt. BUT, they turned out to do terrible damage to native species of birds and animals. SO, foxes ARE. in fact, pests.
There are LOTS of pest species around. Nutria and those nifty constricting snakes now at home in the Florida Everglades. Those snakes in Guam. Kill for sport. Go for it. Knock yourself out. Bring beer. Lots more pests that deserve hunting for sport. Rats. Roos. You name them. Every country has them.
Finally, the discussion of veganism and meat eating keeps getting interwoven.
So I looked up this:
Locusts as food:
Leviticus 11:22
Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.
Matthew 3:4
John’s clothes were made of camel’s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.
Mark 1:6
John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey.
So, it looks like John the Baptist was not vegan.
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Ridgerunner
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I don’t know that it’s unique. What it really takes is access to rural people. I daresay that if a person, even a city dweller, drives out to some small town and goes into a feed store and asks around, it wouldn’t take long before he could find out who, in the area, raises hogs or beef to butcher or range chickens or fresh eggs or just about anything else. In rural slaughterhouses, they actually buy steers and hogs from farmers to butcher and sell. Some few will process chickens, but they don’t like to do it, and they’re costly. You don’t save much money doing that, but you know what you’re getting.And I’ll bet that wasn’t a factory farm either
Ridgerunner - you are unique in your access to non factory farmed meat! The majority of the US does not have that or the option to hunt for meat as an option.
But as you say - back to the topic at hand - certainly not killed for ‘sport’.
The REAL deals can be had by knowing people who work in processing plants. Yes, it’s probably factory farm stuff, though pork isn’t always. Depends on where you are. Poultry always is. But I think my best deal was frozen chicken leg quarters for three cents per pound. All procesors have product over-runs, and they practically give them away. I bought as many of those leg quarters as my car could carry (in 30 lb boxes) and gave most of them away. It was fun, and the best quality you ever saw. Kids in a big family go bonkers if you bring a 30 lb box of chicken in their door. Chicken tenders are more expensive. Usually around a dollar a pound, but sometimes if they have what they call “miscuts”, (poorly portioned breast meat) they almost give those away. I buy them in 30 lb boxes too, and genuinely enjoy passing them around.
If you live in a city, you need to go roaming the countryside a bit, just asking around. There are lots of things out there. It wouldn’t be long before you could find a farmer with whom to form a relationship. I’m serious.
And NONE of those animals are killed for sport!
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4elise
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I’m glad these options exist for people - don’t know how many are willing and/or able to make this effort - having shifted to a vegan diet makes it much easier, don’t need to ask if the meat came from a factory farm, cause it’s not meat!If you live in a city, you need to go roaming the countryside a bit, just asking around. There are lots of things out there. It wouldn’t be long before you could find a farmer with whom to form a relationship. I’m serious.
And NONE of those animals are killed for sport!
Blessings
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severus68
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I haven’t read her book. I would like to know please whether she has lied in the book. Can we get any insights from readig her book? Does she say she has a doctorate in Catholic or Co of E theology? Does she misrepresent her credentials?
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CWBetts
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I don’t care if she misrepresents her credentials, she obviously misrepresents the Cathechism
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Brendan
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No, she says she has a Doctorate in Philosophy (Ph.D), which is not a Doctor of Sacred Theology, granted by a secular university (University of Wales).
Does anyone deny that?
As far as her lying in her book, that would be up to a Theologian with a Church Licenceate to make an abosulte determination.
Without a Licencate or at least an imprimatur and nilh obstat, the would be nothing in the book that should be considered authorative to a Catholic in matters of Theology.
And since that is what were are talking about here, why should I listen to her work?
At least over those who DO have S.T.D. degrees like Fr. Jones (whom I have quoted earlier in this thread on the licitedness of priests to hunt) or the Cathechism of Trent, which notes that the killing of animals is permitted.
Either way, I certainly attribute no maliciousness to Dr. Jones, as to accuse her of lying, but if she teaches contrary to works published by Church recognized theologians, Council documents and teachings of Doctors of the Church such as St. Thomas Aquinas, I would consider her to be sadly mistaken.
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