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PoorKnight
Guest
In a country that has seen numerous attacks on Christians and churches by evil men and women - the U.S.A.
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PoorKnight
Guest
I do have to admit I do struggle with the back and forth between pacifistic martyrism and fighting upto and including martyrdom. I understand Peaceful protest even if it meant loosing my life.
However, I see it as a sin, for me, to sit back and watch someone brutilize innocent people while I have the ability, knowledge and skill to stop it.
Hence - especially in light of Thomas Madden’s great CAL hour on the topic - I understand the armed pilgrimages of the 1090’s - 13th Century (otherwise renamed “The Crusades”). I pray for the intercession of the Knights Templar who were excecuted for their faith or died on the field of battle in defense of Christians.
There’s also the battle over the isle of Malta in the 16th Century where the 700 Knights of St. John sucessfully fought off an invasion of tens of thousands bent on taking Malta to use as a base to launch attacks on Europe. One of the 3 castles on Malta was over-run and all Knights in that castle were executed for their faith. I also ask their intercession.
But I hold a great respect for, and ask intercession from, the numerous martyrs who did not fight.
I love Peace. I love it so much, I’m willing to fight for it: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum - Let those who desire Peace prepare for War (now whether that war be physical or spiritual is up to your vocation). I am trying to prepare for both.
The part about protecting the Eucharist is a difficulty for me. I can see both sides and would probably decide on the consume-it-before-it-is-desecrated route or protect it with my body.
Sorry for the free-flow-thought post… it’s too early to organize my thoughts well…
God Bless
However, I see it as a sin, for me, to sit back and watch someone brutilize innocent people while I have the ability, knowledge and skill to stop it.
Hence - especially in light of Thomas Madden’s great CAL hour on the topic - I understand the armed pilgrimages of the 1090’s - 13th Century (otherwise renamed “The Crusades”). I pray for the intercession of the Knights Templar who were excecuted for their faith or died on the field of battle in defense of Christians.
There’s also the battle over the isle of Malta in the 16th Century where the 700 Knights of St. John sucessfully fought off an invasion of tens of thousands bent on taking Malta to use as a base to launch attacks on Europe. One of the 3 castles on Malta was over-run and all Knights in that castle were executed for their faith. I also ask their intercession.
But I hold a great respect for, and ask intercession from, the numerous martyrs who did not fight.
I love Peace. I love it so much, I’m willing to fight for it: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum - Let those who desire Peace prepare for War (now whether that war be physical or spiritual is up to your vocation). I am trying to prepare for both.
The part about protecting the Eucharist is a difficulty for me. I can see both sides and would probably decide on the consume-it-before-it-is-desecrated route or protect it with my body.
Sorry for the free-flow-thought post… it’s too early to organize my thoughts well…
God Bless
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maryjk
Guest
So do I. Well, sometimes. Other times, it is locked in my car. And sometimes I leave it at home due to being other places where I can’t carry.
Me too. The US.
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Non_sum_dignus
Guest
Yes, I will, because I will move toward the threat to engage it. The idea is to be between the killer and his victims. That’s where I’ll be going. If I have to get close enough for a contact wound, and if I take rounds on the way in, so be it.Unless the gunman swings in from the ceiling you aren’t going to get a clear shot.
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Non_sum_dignus
Guest
I am unwilling to see innocent people get killed when I’m in a position to stop it. If God wants to send me to Hell for preventing the murder of innocents–well, I’m already giving him much better reasons than that.Hmm, I agree with TriumphGuy, but also with the OP who said he was a cop. I dont know?i want to protect my Priest, and above all, My LORD in the BLESSED SACRAMENT, as its no bread in the Tabernacle, HE is a living PERSON inside that TABERNACLE. Only difference is, that if HE wanted, HE could call down legions of angels to defend HIM, but i couldnt stand back and watch sacrelige happen, or watch my Priest get shot and killed. I know the seeds of the Church is the blood of the Martytrs, but if push came to shove, then i hope i would be the first to be shot, so that i wouldnt have to watch the others die… Im torn? Doesnt the Just War doctrine apply to this as well?
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Bradski
Guest
Can I ask how old you are?
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teeboy
Guest
It’s a sin not to carry out your duty as an employee. So a cop could be justified for killing in line with his duty.
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teeboy
Guest
Justice in Christianity is different from the Justice system.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Well, I’ll give my answer to the original question:
First of all I think that unless you’ve already been in that situation it would be next to impossible to say what you would do to save somebody else’s life.
But-if I were for some reason armed and people came into the Church with the intention of killing the Priest and desecrating the Eucharist, I HOPE that I would do my best to defend the Priest and Tabernacle. If I was capable and had to kill people, I would-killing to defend yourself and others from an aggressor is not a sin.
And I HOPE that I’d have the courage to die as a martyr.
But in the end, what would I ACTUALLY do? Who really knows until they’re actually in that situation themselves?
First of all I think that unless you’ve already been in that situation it would be next to impossible to say what you would do to save somebody else’s life.
But-if I were for some reason armed and people came into the Church with the intention of killing the Priest and desecrating the Eucharist, I HOPE that I would do my best to defend the Priest and Tabernacle. If I was capable and had to kill people, I would-killing to defend yourself and others from an aggressor is not a sin.
And I HOPE that I’d have the courage to die as a martyr.
But in the end, what would I ACTUALLY do? Who really knows until they’re actually in that situation themselves?
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thistle
Guest
That’s dangerous as such a person tends to act without thinking of consequences and could result in innocent people being killed.I’ve seen Romero.it was a sad movie, and i didnt like the end, it was too shocking for me, but i did find something that was very touching. The blood of Archbishop Romero poured at, In addition to the MOST PRECIOUS BLOOD. Perhaps some Priests woudnt like it, but then i have to ask, other than being martyrs, what purpose would their death serve? as there is a shortage of them already, letting them die, who would Pastor me, Feed me with the EUCHARIST, Absolve me of my sins etc.? plus** i have a very short fuse when it comes to injustice,** so i wouldnt be able to stand by and watch. My standpoint would be either shoot or get shot.
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teeboy
Guest
What capital sin is killing the result of?
Murder is a sin. All killings aren’t murder.
Putting yourself in a posiition in which you may have to kill may not be wise.
Murder is a sin. All killings aren’t murder.
Putting yourself in a posiition in which you may have to kill may not be wise.
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triumphguy
Guest
One thing we need to remember in this discussion is that Catholics do not believe THIS life to be the be-all and end-all of our existence.
It does change how we think about killing and war etc.
It does change how we think about killing and war etc.
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triumphguy
Guest
However there is a Saint, canonized in 1920 who gives an example in this situation. He used a gun to defend a village, but he used his marksmanship to deter the marauders rather than shooting them.
ST. GABRIEL POSSENTI
Feast: February 27
gunsaint.com/
ewtn.com/library/mary/gabposs.htm
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mytruepower2
Guest
It’d be better if you could somehow incapacitate your enemies without killing them.
However, the problem with killing in defense of the innocent is that it basically places you alongside the murderer of George Tiller. Sure, Tiller was a horrible, wretched murderer himself, but that doesn’t let his killer off the hook.
Now, if you’re fighting someone who’s trying to hurt your family, and you happen to -accidentally- kill them, that’s one thing, and if you’re in an army, and it’s your job to kill the enemy because it’s war, that’s another, but as a single person, using lethal force, even to defend others, is not a good or inspiring option.
The best bet is to go into the jaws of the lions with a song on your lips, because nothing wins more souls for Christ than a martyr.
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mymamamary
Guest
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PoorKnight
Guest
I would have to, lovingly and respectfully disagree.
Code:
Let me start with paragraph 2321 of CCC "The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good."
Code:
The whole "Lone Ranger" shoot-the-gun-out-of-their-hand is next to impossible. Mythbusters had an episode trying to replicate something similar. They declared their experiment a "one-in-a-million" shot. Hands are constantly moving making a 2" x 1" target (the size of a LARGE sized pistol pointed at you) virtually impossible to reliably hit. This too certainly NOT a reliable way to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm.
Other mythical "guaranteed to stop anyone but not harm anyone" methods either do not stop or do not exist. Tazer is limited to 21 feet and TWO barbs fired out at different angles must BOTH hit. At the maximum range the two barbs are at 3 FEET apart. Tazer's long range solution is currently unreliable and has recently been removed from the market. The 40mm rubber bullets hit harder than a Mike Tyson punch. The target area is usually lower abdomen, legs or buttock area. If a person is on a pain killing drug - i.e. PCP - they won't even know their hit.
Nets - as I've heard suggested on a radio show - do not prevent anyone from pulling a trigger.
Code:
Making someone "Unable" to inflict harm means they stop their dangerous behavior. The quickest, most reliable way to stop someone (read: render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm) is to disrupt the information going from the brain to the muscles. This is most reliably done by causing the brain to shut down. This is done by two different ways: deprive it of blood, or cause enough damage to make it instantly shut down.
Target area for Law Enforcement is ONLY two areas: Central Nervous System or Central Circulatory System. This means we aim for the Head or the Heart when forced to use Deadly Force. However, shooting someone in the heart is not an instant stop either. A person can live 5 to 10 seconds after being shot in the heart. From personal experience I know I can fire off 10-15 rounds in 5 to 10 seconds meaning a potential of 10 to 15 more innocent causalities. Double However, while shooting a unjust aggressor in the head is a much more reliable way of an instant stop, it is a harder target, but not nearly impossible as striking a gun out of someone's hands.
Granted, if I aim for the head and I miss and hit the unjust aggressor's arm and they stop their behavior and give up, I'm not going to "finish them off" either. That would also be gravely sinful.
Code:
Are you, as parent, son, daughter, friend, neighbor, in anyway responsible for your family's safety? Or how about the safety of your city? If you knew a murder was going to take place, are you morally bound to report it? You bet. In the same token, per CCC, if you have responsibility for the lives of others, you have the "grave duty" to provide "legitimate defense" to "render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm".
Equally if you have knowledge of Death or Great Bodily Harm (Grievous Bodily Injury) to innocent people, that is IMMINENT (I will define later) and do nothing to try to prevent it is a "grave" matter per CCC and also sinful.
I know you didn't mean to, but I am hurt by the analogy of properly defending the innocent being related to that murderer of George Tiller. The two are NOT the same and Imminence is the difference.#1) You are walking with a man. Both of you are 1,000 miles away from your home and family. There is no means of communications with anyone but each other. The man has no weapons beyond just personal / natural weapons (hands, feet etc). The man states, “I’m going to kill your family”. This is NOT an imminent threat.
#2) You are in your home with your family. The same man breaks into your house. The man is armed with a loaded gun. The man grabs your youngest child, puts the gun to the child’s head. His finger is on the trigger. The man says, “I’m going to kill your family”. This IS an imminent threat.
Code:
Where the murderer of George Tiller went bad is not understanding imminence. George Tiller was not imminently threatening death or great bodily harm to anyone at the time of the murder. This is vastly different than a gunman entering a church and threatening the priest with a gun and yelling "I'm going to kill you!" or just starting to shoot...
As for Martyrdom being inspirational, I would agree. But a pacifistic death is not the only inspirational "witness" (in Greek 'martyr') one can provide. Again I provide two examples:
Code:
Siege of Malta 1565. Tens of thousands of enemy land at the island of Malta. On the island are 3 castles manned by 700 Knights of St. John. The residents of the island flee to the castles for protection. The Knights enroll a couple thousand of the residents into an irregular force - i.e. untrained. The enemy was bent on killing everyone on the island. This is evidenced when the enemy over-ran one castle and executed EVERYONE inside on top of the walls of the castle so that the other two castles could see. Then the enemy attached the headless bodies onto mock crucifixes and floated them across the bay to one of the other castles.
The enemy planned on using Malta as a base of operations by which they would re-invade Europe after a 400 year absence, the most logical place to start would have been Italy. The Knights of St. John held out for several months - killing thousands of enemy - until the enemy withdrew because of the changing seasons and lack of supplies. The Knights of St. John's Commander Jean de Valette was 70 years old at the time of the battle, but was the first one to a breach in the wall and fought there for 10-12 hours until the attack withdrew.
I pray for the intercession of the witnesses - martyrs - of these battles and more.
I also understand there is a time for peace and a time to go to the lions singing praises to God. But there is also a time to grab your .45 and M-4 and sing praises to God.
I believe the culture of Christianity (different from Christianity if you catch the difference) has done a great dis-service to the vocation of Warrior - the just Knight. It is this pacifistic view of Christianity, in part, that has many men leaving Christianity in droves.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
I would have to, lovingly and respectfully disagree.
To render someone ‘unable to inflict harm’ may easily mean death for the unjust aggressor. Anyone who is motivated can shrug off a bullet wound. The book “Lone Survivor” tells the real-life story of a squad of 4 Navy SEALs who were ambushed by over 300 Taliban. 3 out of the 4 SEALs were killed but not before each of them - including the author (the lone survivor) - received 4 or more bullet wounds. The last SEAL killed actually to a round that entered his head at one temple and exited at the other. That SEAL still fought down to his last pistol magazine. So the whole idea of “just shoot them in the leg” will not reliably render an unjust aggressor UNABLE to inflict harm.Code:Let me start with paragraph 2321 of CCC "The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good."
Instant stick foams, sound-wave guns and Star Trek “set-to-stun” guns do not exist.Code:The whole "Lone Ranger" shoot-the-gun-out-of-their-hand is next to impossible. Mythbusters had an episode trying to replicate something similar. They declared their experiment a "one-in-a-million" shot. Hands are constantly moving making a 2" x 1" target (the size of a LARGE sized pistol pointed at you) virtually impossible to reliably hit. This too certainly NOT a reliable way to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Other mythical "guaranteed to stop anyone but not harm anyone" methods either do not stop or do not exist. Tazer is limited to 21 feet and TWO barbs fired out at different angles must BOTH hit. At the maximum range the two barbs are at 3 FEET apart. Tazer's long range solution is currently unreliable and has recently been removed from the market. The 40mm rubber bullets hit harder than a Mike Tyson punch. The target area is usually lower abdomen, legs or buttock area. If a person is on a pain killing drug - i.e. PCP - they won't even know their hit. Nets - as I've heard suggested on a radio show - do not prevent anyone from pulling a trigger.
Now let’s focus on the second half of paragraph 2321: “Legitimate defense is a grave duty of whoever is responsible for the lives of other or the common good.”Code:Making someone "Unable" to inflict harm means they stop their dangerous behavior. The quickest, most reliable way to stop someone (read: render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm) is to disrupt the information going from the brain to the muscles. This is most reliably done by causing the brain to shut down. This is done by two different ways: deprive it of blood, or cause enough damage to make it instantly shut down. Target area for Law Enforcement is ONLY two areas: Central Nervous System or Central Circulatory System. This means we aim for the Head or the Heart when forced to use Deadly Force. However, shooting someone in the heart is not an instant stop either. A person can live 5 to 10 seconds after being shot in the heart. From personal experience I know I can fire off 10-15 rounds in 5 to 10 seconds meaning a potential of 10 to 15 more innocent causalities. Double However, while shooting a unjust aggressor in the head is a much more reliable way of an instant stop, it is a harder target, but not nearly impossible as striking a gun out of someone's hands. Granted, if I aim for the head and I miss and hit the unjust aggressor's arm and they stop their behavior and give up, I'm not going to "finish them off" either. That would also be gravely sinful.
Let me explain imminent with two scenarios:Code:Are you, as parent, son, daughter, friend, neighbor, in anyway responsible for your family's safety? Or how about the safety of your city? If you knew a murder was going to take place, are you morally bound to report it? You bet. In the same token, per CCC, if you have responsibility for the lives of others, you have the "grave duty" to provide "legitimate defense" to "render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm". Equally if you have knowledge of Death or Great Bodily Harm (Grievous Bodily Injury) to innocent people, that is IMMINENT (I will define later) and do nothing to try to prevent it is a "grave" matter per CCC and also sinful. I know you didn't mean to, but I am hurt by the analogy of properly defending the innocent being related to that murderer of George Tiller. The two are NOT the same and Imminence is the difference.
#1) You are walking with a man. Both of you are 1,000 miles away from your home and family. There is no means of communications with anyone but each other. The man has no weapons beyond just personal / natural weapons (hands, feet etc). The man states, “I’m going to kill your family”. This is NOT an imminent threat.
#2) You are in your home with your family. The same man breaks into your house. The man is armed with a loaded gun. The man grabs your youngest child, puts the gun to the child’s head. His finger is on the trigger. The man says, “I’m going to kill your family”. This IS an imminent threat.
Battle of Acre. Acre was the last stronghold of the Latin Kingdom. When the enemy surrounded Acre, the Knights Templar sued for peace - i.e. tried to negotiate. The enemy agreed to let all the women, children, elderly and infirmed, who had fled to the castle for protection, to evacuate to boats. The Knights Templar would then surrender Acre and leave. However, as soon as the gates of Acre were opened, the enemy attacked. The Knights Templar stood in the gap and fought to the last man while many of the innocent escaped to the waiting boats.Code:Where the murderer of George Tiller went bad is not understanding imminence. George Tiller was not imminently threatening death or great bodily harm to anyone at the time of the murder. This is vastly different than a gunman entering a church and threatening the priest with a gun and yelling "I'm going to kill you!" or just starting to shoot... As for Martyrdom being inspirational, I would agree. But a pacifistic death is not the only inspirational "witness" (in Greek 'martyr') one can provide. Again I provide two examples:
God Bless You,Code:Siege of Malta 1565. Tens of thousands of enemy land at the island of Malta. On the island are 3 castles manned by 700 Knights of St. John. The residents of the island flee to the castles for protection. The Knights enroll a couple thousand of the residents into an irregular force - i.e. untrained. The enemy was bent on killing everyone on the island. This is evidenced when the enemy over-ran one castle and executed EVERYONE inside on top of the walls of the castle so that the other two castles could see. Then the enemy attached the headless bodies onto mock crucifixes and floated them across the bay to one of the other castles. The enemy planned on using Malta as a base of operations by which they would re-invade Europe after a 400 year absence, the most logical place to start would have been Italy. The Knights of St. John held out for several months - killing thousands of enemy - until the enemy withdrew because of the changing seasons and lack of supplies. The Knights of St. John's Commander Jean de Valette was 70 years old at the time of the battle, but was the first one to a breach in the wall and fought there for 10-12 hours until the attack withdrew. I pray for the intercession of the witnesses - martyrs - of these battles and more. I also understand there is a time for peace and a time to go to the lions singing praises to God. But there is also a time to grab your .45 and M-4 and sing praises to God. I believe the culture of Christianity (different from Christianity if you catch the difference) has done a great dis-service to the vocation of Warrior - the just Knight. It is this pacifistic view of Christianity, in part, that has many men leaving Christianity in droves.
Two thumbs up, sir!
The most devout Catholic I know is my former theology teacher. When he was younger he was a Federal Marshal. He never had to actually kill anybody (he told us this) but he was trained to use deadly force when necessary. He got shot in the shoulder and shrapnel from the bullet became lodged in his spine, in a spot too dangerous for Doctors to remove. If the bullet shrapnel was an inch higher or an inch lower he would have been paralyzed.
He also refused to go and break up a group of protesters outside of an abortion center despite orders to do so.
God Bless the Catholic Knights :knight1::knight2:
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