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Walking_Home
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severus68;8593754:
Who pulled your chain?** I thought you were only allowed from your cave at night time**!!
I eat meat — but I don’t believe that kind of remark is called for.
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I eat meat — but I don’t believe that kind of remark is called for.
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Debora123
Guest
Why are some people here being so rude to vegetarians/vegans?? 
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Ridgerunner
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I, for one, don’t think it serves any purpose to be rude to them. I will say, however, that sometimes vegetarians/vegans assume an attitude of moral superiority that’s a bit difficult to take, particularly because the Church does not teach vegetarianism/veganism, and never did. It’s one thing to believe oneself to be healthier because of his vegetarian diet. It’s quite another to claim that people are sinning when they eat meat, when they are not.Why are some people here being so rude to vegetarians/vegans??
I’ll add that sometimes the vegetarian/vegan point of view is not properly based in fact, and is sometimes based on absolutely fabricated literature of films by groups like PETA or USPCA. I have seen things like that on here. Possibly there are vegetarians/vegans on here who have actually witnessed what it’s like in a poultry growout facility, or a hog facility or a cattle ranch. Possibly there are some who have actually been in processing facilities that are typical. But I have not yet met one, on here or anywhere else.
With all due respect, if someone feels it is a good spiritual discipline for them to abstain from meat, or eggs or apple pie or honeydew melons or whatever, I’m okay with that, and it might, indeed, be of spiritual value to that person. But it seems to me when someone comes here and claims moral superiority over it, it’s a bit like coming in here telling how much you put in the collection plate. Jesus addressed that particular practice, and did not affirm it.
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severus68
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I can only wonder. No is trying to force anyone to become one.Why are some people here being so rude to vegetarians/vegans??
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severus68
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[Q
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Ridgerunner
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It is a lot more than spiritual discipline to us. We are not trying to force anyone to change nor are we are we judging or nsulting anyone who is not one.
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One has to admit that many posters have assured us that it’s morally wrong to eat meat. Granted, they state varied premises for it: that it’s the way animals are raised or slaughtered that animals are our fellow creatures and that it’s immoral to use them as food; that feed for animals could be used to feed humans; that meat is deadly and we hae an obligation to avoid it, etc. If you have not seen those posts, then you have not seen enough of these threads.
And no, I have never seen a post by someone who has personally observed mainstream animal husbandry maintain that it’s a horror. I have, however, seen many and many a post where “animal rights” sources are used as foundational material by people who have never actually observed any of the things they decry. I have seen bogus films posted here as well.
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severus68
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One has to admit that many posters have assured us that it’s morally wrong to eat meat. Granted, they state varied premises for it: that it’s the way animals are raised or slaughtered that animals are our fellow creatures and that it’s immoral to use them as food; that feed for animals could be used to feed humans; that meat is deadly and we hae an obligation to avoid it, etc. If you have not seen those posts, then you have not seen enough of these threads.
And no, I have never seen a post by someone who has personally observed mainstream animal husbandry maintain that it’s a horror. I have, however, seen many and many a post where “animal rights” sources are used as foundational material by people who have never actually observed any of the things they decry. I have seen bogus films posted here as well.
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I believe rather that we say we believe it it is morally wrong for us to eat meat.
I have seen most if not all of the posts on this since I joined CAF.
I know there are at least a few who have said they have seen it first hand. I do not post on factory farming as it appears to be more an American issue. While there may be a few doctored videos, but the majority are genuine - here I am referring to all animal cruelty videos not just on factory farms.
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karoleck
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Thank you.
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karoleck
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Maybe vegans/vegetariansy like to play the victim card?:imsorry:Why are some people here being so rude to vegetarians/vegans??
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karoleck
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:thumbsup:That is a fine posting and a very balanced posting–very well thought out.
I came across this article on farming from Blessed John Paul 11.
"Even in the economically developed countries,where scientific research,technological achievements and State policy have brought agriculture to a very advanced level,the right to work can be infringed when the farmworkers are denied the possibility of sharing in decisions concerning their services,or when they are denied the right to free association with a view to their just advancement socially,culturally and economically.
In many situations radical and urgent changes are therfore needed in order to restore to agriculture—and to rural people–their just value as the basis for a healthy economy,within the social community’s development as a whole.Thus it is necessary to proclaim and promote the dignity of work,of all work but especially of agricultural work,in which man so eloquently “subdues"the earth he has received as a gift from God and affirms his “dominion” in the visible world.” Laborem Exercens 21,1981.
Blessed John Paul 11 firstly does not condemn the “very advanced level” of modern farming;he also used the two words that same posters on this thread do not like,they are “subdues” the earth & his "dominion"of it.
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karoleck
Guest
One has to admit that many posters have assured us that it’s morally wrong to eat meat. Granted, they state varied premises for it: that it’s the way animals are raised or slaughtered that animals are our fellow creatures and that it’s immoral to use them as food; that feed for animals could be used to feed humans; that meat is deadly and we hae an obligation to avoid it, etc. If you have not seen those posts, then you have not seen enough of these threads.
And no, I have never seen a post by someone who has personally observed mainstream animal husbandry maintain that it’s a horror. I have, however, seen many and many a post where “animal rights” sources are used as foundational material by people who have never actually observed any of the things they decry. I have seen bogus films posted here as well.
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You have observed well,what I find a lot of posters do, who support the Veg/Vegan way of life, is to twist around Catholic beliefs to “win” an arguement(to justify their beliefs).
I will give just one example.
They will start of by stating that there will be animals in Heaven and this is not against the teachings of The Church.
For a start this is not an established fact but speculation; as no one will know this for certain, until the end of the world.They then take a “great leap foward” to the present moment and state that animals who die now, therefore are immortal because they go to Heaven! (a round robin effect!)
But the Catholic Church teaches as a truth that only a human person has an immortal soul.It teaches that at Baptism our souls are again restored to God in Christ.Heaven or Hell will be our destiny for ever. It teaches that animals do not have an immortal soul.
What concerns me is that some catholics here in this thread, are prepared to put their own “beliefs” such as the immortality of an animal ,above the certain Teachings of the Church,under the guise of a personally ill informed conscience.These persons are mistaken , a personally held conscience has to be formed and conformed within The Teaching Church.It is only then, can a conscience mirror what is the right conduct to be taken and the correct mindset that Christ wants of us at any given moment.It is the Teaching Church that is the final arbiter;it does not teach the doctrine of the primacy conscience.
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karoleck
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A thousand pardons for my being rude to you;whilst I think that you post a lot of nonsense and I do not believe what you say is factual.You are still entitled to express you opinions without being laughted at.
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Ridgerunner
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I don’t know what goes on in whatever country you are in. Nor do I know what animal cruelty videos you have seen, where they were filmed, or what the subject matter was. So, pretty obviously, I can’t comment on any of that, and won’t.
“Factory farming” does seem to be a big issue in the U.S. Actually "factory farming’ is almost entirely just large-scale farming by individuals. It has been a very major boon to agriculture in the region in which I live, allowing farmers with very limited resources to become surprisingly wealthy if they are good managers. One cannot be a good manager if one mistreats the animals, and one will fail if one does. The processors can tell in an instant if animals have been stressed, ill-fed, diseased, living in filth, physically abused, and they won’t pay an economically-supportable price for animals like that.
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severus68
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Some of those videos are on extreme cruelty by workers in slaughter houses in the UK.
I would think that the relatively low cost of meat in the US must be because of economies of scale. You could ill treat an animal ( confined small space for example) without showing any external signs. Anyway, factory farming was never the reason for me not eating meat and it is really the subject of another thread I believe.
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Ridgerunner
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Cost is also determined by (name removed by moderator)uts. I understand the cost of beef is low in Australia also. Lots of pasture land that can’t be used for anything else. With poultry and hogs, it would be the cost of grain and proximity to the growout facilities.
You really can’t crowd animals together tighter than their “comfort zones/retreat space” without their showing signs of it, because they will abuse and harm each other if you do, and that will definitely show.
Also, and this might not be too interesting, but I’ll say it. Beef production is a pretty independent thing. Individuals own ranches and sell to “backgrounders” (also largely pasture feeding, usually on wheat grass) feed lots or directly to processors. Hog are largely the same way, except they are raised in fairly open confinements. Hogs are vicious animals, and they have to be kept separate once they reach a certain size. They go directly from farms to processors. Poultry are raised almost exclusively be independent farmers, which are closely inspected by big “integrators” which own the breeding facilities and processing plants and prescribe the diets and treatment of the birds. The integrators even provide the feed. The integrators are very exacting in their requirements because their production lines work best when the birds are exactly the same size and flawless.
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severus68
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Thank you for explaining. One question, what happens to poultry that are of not the same size and what treatment is prescribed? I try to eat organic produce as much as possible and the fruits and vegetables are not uniform and without some blemish. The taste is great.
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Ridgerunner
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It’s very unusual for a bird not to be the proper size. The breeding is such that, while they’re not “clones”, they are very uniform genetically. A flock is hatched all at the same time, fed the same, processed at the same time, etc. Not much room for variation in that.
Now, you have to realize that most of the processing is mechanical, so it has to, within a reasonable degree, “fit” the machinery. If a bird happens to come in that is much bigger than the rest, it can pretty well fit anyway, and is processed right down to a point where it is diverted to a different product line. If a bird is so small that it doesn’t fit the machinery at all, it will be killed with the rest and diverted to pet food as a whole, although sometimes they will just let the bird go out at the loading dock. It’s a practice in at least the processing facilities of which I have visited, that any member of the public that can catch a loose bird can keep it. But it has to be outside the perimeter fence. Eventually, the birds will go outside the fence. People catch those birds and take them home and raise them for food or eggs. On any given day, there are usually at least a few loose chickens, and people do gather them up.
There are special lines for cornish hens, which are small. But they won’t run the line for just one cornish hen size bird. Many thousands of birds will go through in just one day in even a moderate sized plant. Most plants’ weekly production is in the low millions.
It’s interesting to watch, precisely because it’s much more mechanized than most would guess, far more sanitary than people imagine, and very fast.
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JaneGrey
Guest
I honestly wonder why too. It seems that it evokes such vitriol, like nothing else. It is almost as if its some socially acceptable schoolboy joke that its ok for otherwise pleasant and reasonable people to say things to vegans/vegetarians that they would not think of saying otherwise.Why are some people here being so rude to vegetarians/vegans??
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severus68
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Yes, I wonder too. It is as if we are fair game with no rules applying.
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karoleck
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Here is a passage for you from Timonthy 1 Chapter 4 1-7
’The Spirit has explicitly said that during the last times there will be some who will desert the faith and choose to listen to deceitful spirits and doctrines that come from the devils;and the cause of this is the lies told by hypocrites **whose consciences are branded **as though with a red-hot iron:they will say marriage is forbidden,and lay down rules about abstaining from foods which God created to be accepted with thanksgiving by all who believe and who know the truth.Everything God has created is good,and no food is to be rejected,provided grace is said for it:the words of God and the prayer make it holy.If you put all this to the brothers,you will be a good servant of Jesus Christ and show that you have really digested the teaching of the faith and the good doctrine which you have always followed".
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