Kimberley Hanh vs. Fr. John Hardon + Cradle Catholics

[Hesychios]

Stylite:

Some people are a little jittery about fresh converts due to some big named ones that had so much promise and knowledge but ended up going a bit astray into false Traditionalist territory.
-Stylite

Could be, I don’t know whom you might be referring to exactly but I am aware of the same phenomena working in converts to the eastern side of the church, so I see your point.

Some converts to eastern Catholicism or Orthodoxy learn the basics in their formation period and then run with it! Amazingly they move from jurisdiction to jurisdiction until they are in the most formally conservative branch of Orthodoxy imaginable, into smaller groups sometimes in communion with no other jurisdiction.

In other words, they buy into our argumentation and say something like “bigger is better”, if you get my drift. So we value a Sacramental life, profound prayer, solemnity, liturgical correctness, devotion to Mary and all the Saints, etc, and they want all of that, but moreso.

Eventually they go sailing by accusing us of all of our flaws and imperfections and criticising our hierarchs and our devotion to the Holy Father.

Oh well,
Michael, that arch sinner

 

[Les_Richardson]

Fidelis:

I’d like to echo Jennifer’s thoughts. Everytime you hear criticism of the Hahn’s or other converts who are doing good work getting Catholics knowledgable and excited about their faith, that criticism can usually be traced to a group or individuals that appear to be jealous and resentful of their influence.

I’ve only been Catholic for one year, but there are several of currents running here as I see it.
Enthusiasm of the convert. That’s normal. Sometimes I feel that I could burst when I see non-committal, blase cradle Catholics and I want to shake them and say, “don’t you see what you have, what you were born into?” But I realize that my first concern is working on my holiness, not theirs. And I can pray for them.
**Reaction to the Enthusiasm of the convert. **It is a human reaction, perhaps not an admirable one, to view the johnny-come-lately with disapproval, particularly if he is overtly enthusiastic. And we must remember, that some of the people we think are immobile and need shaking may have a quiet, but very deep spiritual commitment to the Lord, and we would do well to be quiet and listen to them, and learn. The members of the Body of Christ are diverse.
**Protestant carry-over. **Ask people like Marcus Grodi. As a protestant minister he was in the driver’s seat. If something needed to be said, he said it. Now, he must be submissive to the Majesterium and confine his apostolate to the proper purvue of a lay-person. He does a good job I’d say.
There is also the aspect of protestant(evangelical at least) practice that attracts some Catholics and converts bring with them. That being the type of services, singing, praising God, preaching or teaching and so forth. “Being fed.” A difficult thing sometimes is to recognize the mass for what it is, a sacrifice re-presented every time. It is unique, sacred and not to be messed with, however much we might like to make it more like a protestant “worship service.” We need to recognize it is not an either/or. We can have both. But not in the sanctuary, and not as a part of the mass.
Doctrine. The past 40 years of turmoil within the church, the rebellious individualism has spawned movements in many directions. So people who wish to be orthodox but are not theologically well-trained will look at any popular movement or people with a cautious, even suspicious eye. As well they should. The test is to compare to the teaching of the Holy Father and the Majesterium.
Those within the church that would like to change doctrine will resent the orthodoxy of some converts. Others with agendas will try to co-opt enthusiastic converts, and steer them into controversial areas.
We all need to test everything we hear against Scripture and the Catechism, research encyclicals, and so forth. Above all pray for guidance with a humble heart. God wants us to know the truth, and who we can trust. Ask and you will receive.

 

[kallen]

It is exactly this type of protestant discrimination that causes Protestants to be wary that they are truly accepted.

Let’s remember St. Paul was a convert to Christianity; he previously wanted to kill Christians. Was his newfound zeal and drive to spread the Gospel (not to mention his theology)trustworthy? What about St. Augustine? Is his theology suspect since he came to faith later in life?

And, speaking of universally trusting cradle Catholics…that is a dangerous line of thinking. In fact, the Reformers, if you recall, were all previously Catholics.

It seems it would be very unGodly to make a second-class group of Christians in the Catholic church.

Thing is, even the Pope knows he needs constant renewal. All sinners do.

K

 

[Les_Richardson]

kallen:

Thing is, even the Pope knows he needs constant renewal. All sinners do.

K

Absoluely.

 

[Catholicguy]

What makes a Catholic orthodox? What makes a convert not? If they are either a cradle Catholic who accepts church teaching, and/or a convert who accepts church teaching, what difference is there? This is something of an individual nature, and certainly not known, in such generalization by you or I

***The point is the convert, Kimberley, worked against the advice of a brilliant Cradle Catholic Clergyman and arrogated to herself an expertise she obviously lacked. ***

---

 

[Catholicguy]

]By the way, if this ISN’T an insult to converts, then you’re denying a very obvious one!

That you take offense to a statement that is not an insult is a confusion you seem determined to embrace. C’est la vie.

Kimberley Hahn arrogated to herself an expertise she obviously lacked. In doing so, she helped supplant a brilliant, orthodox Cradle Catholic Clergyman who had been appointed by the Pope himself.

What Hahn is now doing with the AmBishops is dangerous and disingenuous. All I am doing is trying to bring this to the attention of others.

Apparently, merely posting the facts of a public controversy is an insult to someone.

 

[Bill_Buck]

]
Apparently, merely posting the facts of a public controversy is an insult to someone.

It’s not the facts that are insulting but the hearsay and sniping. The articles that are linked read like the griping and gossip that surrounds the tubs of old washerwomen. They seem to be judgmental and attack the quality and dignity of the individuals involved instead of debating the issues.
As for being a “public controversy” it is a bit dated. If someone wants to start a tread on the merits of or needs for Diocesan Guidelines for Home School go ahead. There are enough real facts and concerns to be addressed so that we don’t need to stoop to “She is a convert”, “He wrote a controversial book on sex”; “They came from that bastion of liberal theology Steubenville”; or “They were mean”.

K

]

Kimberley Hahn arrogated to herself an expertise she obviously lacked. In doing so, she helped supplant a brilliant, orthodox Cradle Catholic Clergyman who had been appointed by the Pope himself.
In this controversy over diocesan guidelines for home-schoolers, Kimberly Hahn is in the company of who? Bishop Wuerl and other American Bishops? All who are “appointed by the Pope himself”, many of who are cradle Catholics, and some that are brilliant and orthodox.

People of good faith can disagree in good faith on maters that are not dogmatic to the Faith. There are enough enemies of the Faith out there. We don’t have to go about trying to make up new ones.

Bill

 

[allthewhile]

Well said Bill. But what is the contraversial book she wrote?

 

[Catholicguy]

Feelings are bound to be hurt when such fundamentals of Catholicism - such as it is the primary duty of the parents to Teach the Faith - are overturned by overzealous and underpracticed converts such as Mrs. Hahn.

The reason I posted this is the issue is still very much alive and few are awareof the role Mrs.Hahn has played…

The desire to surrender to the AmBishops the authority to set guielines for homoschoolers is a singulaly insane idea given their roles in the rapid decline of the Catholic Schools they operate.

At the last USCCB conclave the Bishops admitted openly they have failed in providing orthodox catechesis these past 20 years.

 

[Katholish]

While I cannot really comment on the Cradle Catholic/Covert topic, I can address the homeschooling topic. In no way has the controversy been resolved. Seton Home Study School was banned from NACHE’s Virginia conference as a result of an article on authority published by Dr. Mary Kay Clark (Seton). Fr. Hardon opposed NACHE’s action in the direction of working with bishops, to impose guidelines on homeschooling families which in the past have led to what is known as “sacramental blackmail”. Seton has not been allowed back to the conference since this first occured.

Although the two groups are not in open opposition, there is now another conference in the Northern Virginia area, www.ihmconference.org, which is quickly becoming the largest in the country.

 

[darcee]

Oh please…
How many Cradle Catholics are out there pushing for any number of un-orthodox things such as gay marriage and women’s ordination.
Converts and Cradle Catholics are equally trustworthy, by their fruits you will know them, nothing else matters and to imply anything different is just plain ignorance.

-D

 

[debi]

There seems to be some confusion as to exactly what an orthodox Catholic is…and what self serving extremist Catholics are… and what is the difference. Perhaps someone would explain to us “poor uneducated or undereducated” Catholics who are out here in the rank and file living out the Catholic faith as we know it. In my humble opinion any organization that aligns itself with the RCF (who started out with a good format but got caught up in itself) has a rather extremist view and a poor Catholic foundation. If I am sorely mistaken please advise.

Our faith is one of constant conversion, one of continuous forgiveness, and one of abounding love. Where is this in your posts and articles.

And if the Bishops and Priests can not deem who is ready for various sacraments, someone must have the last say so to speak, if you feel any lay person can make that determination, especially a parent, whose views are often tempered by love … get real.

The question will soon become who is really creating the new schism???
blessings

 

[TeAmo]

]
By the way, if this ISN’T an insult to converts, then you’re denying a very obvious one!

Kimberley Hahn arrogated to herself an expertise she obviously lacked. In doing so, she helped supplant a brilliant, orthodox Cradle Catholic Clergyman who had been appointed by the Pope himself.

.

What difference does it make if Fr. Hardon was a cradle Catholic?

 

[Keith_Barrett]

Catholicguy:

Feelings are bound to be hurt when such fundamentals of Catholicism - such as it is the primary duty of the parents to Teach the Faith - are overturned by overzealous and underpracticed converts such as Mrs. Hahn.

The reason I posted this is the issue is still very much alive and few are awareof the role Mrs.Hahn has played…

The desire to surrender to the AmBishops the authority to set guielines for homoschoolers is a singulaly insane idea given their roles in the rapid decline of the Catholic Schools they operate.

At the last USCCB conclave the Bishops admitted openly they have failed in providing orthodox catechesis these past 20 years.

As a South African, I can only comment as an outsider to this situation, but this also means that I can give a disinterested party’s point of view on this issue.

It seems to me that Mrs. Hahn can’t win. In your first posting you say:

While converts are always welcomed they are not universally trustworthy and they should not supplant as authorities Orthodox Cradle Catholics.

Then in the posting I quote above, you damn her for supporting your bishops’ authority over homeschooling. In other words, Mrs. Hahn can’t be trusted because she is a convert who is trying to “supplant as authorities Orthodox Cradle Catholics”, but she is also wrong for surrendering “to the AmBishops the authority to set guielines for homoschoolers.” (By the way, was this a Freudian slip? )

Essentially, my problem here is not with the issue that you raise, but with the consistency of your arguments. The fact is that, if you want to call yourself a Catholic, you also have to recognise the authority of the Magesterium of the Church, which includes your “AmBishops”. On the other hand, I take your point about "the primary duty of the parents [is] to Teach the Faith ". Both sides have valid elements to their arguments, that is why good, orthodox Catholics are on either side of the argument. It is the love which we are called to have for each other that should allow the parties involved to come to a correct, workable solution.

Lastly, I have to agree that saying that Catholic converts are “not universally trustworthy” is definitely an insult to those Catholic converts. It is a generalisation in the order of: priests are not universally trustworthy because some of them have abused children. Sadly, some people do believe this, but it is not true and is very hurtful to priests who innocently suffer at the hands of such belief.

 

[Doc]

I think it’s pretty evident that generalizing about the “catholicity” of converts vs cradle catholics comes from the shallow end of the swimming pool of logic. If you have a gripe about someone’s stance on an issue, I say put it out their plainly and say why you disagree, don’t toss out conclusory statements unsupported by facts. Using words like “overzealous” and “underpracticed” tell more about the user of such terms than the person they are meant to describe if you can’t back them up with proof or facts. Why is someone (Ms. Hahn) clearly unqualified to take a particular position? Can eminent and respected cradle catholic theologians be wrong? I suppose even they make mistakes. If this issue is still a hot one, don’t refer us to a tiff that took place 5 years ago, and one of the parties has since died - tell us what the current status is, and who the players are on each side, and what their positions are. We can take it from there.

And my mamma taught me that when someone tells me that I’ve said or done something insulting, I apologize. Cest la vie evidences a disregard for the feelings and opinions of others - just like saying “Deal with it.” It absolutely fails to support why some of the original statements are not insulting, and dismissively deals with the objections others voiced. Again, more telling about the user than the person its directed towards.

While I’m not a home-schooler, my niece is for her 5 kids (6th on the way!) so I’ll pray for you all that this is sorted out in God’s time and manner. God Bless!

Doc

 

[vera-icona]

Catholicguy:

Feelings are bound to be hurt when such fundamentals of Catholicism - such as it is the primary duty of the parents to Teach the Faith - are overturned by overzealous and underpracticed converts such as Mrs. Hahn.

The reason I posted this is the issue is still very much alive and few are awareof the role Mrs.Hahn has played…

The desire to surrender to the AmBishops the authority to set guielines for homoschoolers is a singulaly insane idea given their roles in the rapid decline of the Catholic Schools they operate.

At the last USCCB conclave the Bishops admitted openly they have failed in providing orthodox catechesis these past 20 years.

Catholicguy,

I’m very glad you started this thread. I’m a cradle Catholic, we pulled our kids out in Feb from public schools & are still getting ourselves organized.

Yes, most google searches should be taken with a grain of salt, and yes, more research should be done to verify what the folks here label as “gossip” and “slander” and whatnot.

But, your post is useful. I can’t stand it when people blast the messenger.

IMO, we need to be vigilent about everyone, and everything, especially for our children.

What got me on your initial links were the diocese “putting their foot in the door” on what the parents are teaching their children at home.

Diocesan responsibility is catechize the parents first, make them excellent Catholics, which will provide a trickle-down effect to the children.

Baltimore Cat all the way…

v.i.