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Indifferently
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Of course you would.
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asd72
Guest
I haven’t always had this outlook. I came into Christianity influenced by evangelical Christianity. I was in the process of trying to find a Church which fit with my views, although a lot of my views were undefined, because in the evangelical world there are a lot of different opinions. It was only when I came into the Catholic Church that I fully realized there was a defined set of truths, that God had left Authority and Traditions, not just a Bible.
If you are a conservative CoE member I am sure you have held onto a lot of this truth, but it doesn’t change the fact that God prayed for the Church to be one.
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einna
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PJM
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My dear friend in Christ
HAD to cut your post to fit mine in:blush:You’ve discovered the space limitations that we prudently must deal with.
I think you made 7 major points and I’ll respond briefly and specifically to each. However KNOW please that “tons” of evidence exists and ought to & need be brought into this conversation.
Please don’t take my brief comments as harshness or closed-mindless. It’s a “SPACE THING”.
- Celibacy: This is a church practice that COULD but likely will not be changed for the following reasons. 1. Its voluntary 2. It has been proven to work
- Male Only priest hood.: Blessed John Paul II gave the following reasons: 1. Sacred Tradition 2. It’s a Sacrament Instituted by God Himself and the Church lacks the power to change it 3. Because Christ was male-gender” in order to make “Himself” :Truly, Really and Substanually Present in the Most Holy Eucharist: From God the Father; Of God the Son; By the Holy Spirit, the priest in a second miracle is [CCC #1548] “persona Christi Capitis“: which means literally: “another Christ” and therefore absolutely must be male gender to permit this to take place.
- Married Priest: this too is only a “church practice” and could but likely will not be changed because its been proven very effective not too; and has a biblical foundation.
John.15: 16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide” - Mary issues especially “Co-Redemptrix” from Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary
“CO-REDEMPTRIX. A title of the Blessed Virgin as co-operator with Christ in the work of human redemption. It may be considered an aspect of Mary’s mediation in not only consenting to become the Mother of God but in freely consenting in his labors, sufferings, and death for the salvation of the human race. As Co-Redemptrix, she is in no sense equal to Christ in his redemptive activity, since she herself required redemption and in fact was redeemed by her Son. He alone merited man’s salvation. Mary effectively interceded to obtain subjective application of Christ’s merits to those whom the Savior had objectively redeemed” - Infallibility Issues: Because the next three issues are tied together; I’ll respond to this one with a few brief points. 1. Christ [our Perfect God} gave the Keys [singular] to only Peter for Governance of His “MY” [singular] one church. Mt. 16:15-19 2. Verse 19: powers to “bind and loose” refer precisely to unlimited governance of this One Church.
- Church Governance: Once God decided to be Incarnated and to establish One New Faith; He HAD TO do it with only One Church and with One Head; following OT Tradition. Abram, Noah, Moses, David, Jacob, the kings and prophets all one-person- males leaders, guided and protected by God himself. Peter has this role in the NT.
- One True Church: Here’s a site you can use to look up these passages. Please do so in the sequence provided. drbo.org/
Mt. 16:15-19
Mt. 18:18 powers expanded to all the Apostles
Mt. 28: 16-20 God Initiates by absolute necessity with the command” YOU teach the ENTIRE World!”
The CC alone is guided ; guarded, & protected by Jesus in Person and the HS
Jn.14:16-17
Jn.20:19-21 fulfilled
Jn. 17: 15-19
Christ passes on His Own Powers and Authority to Peter and the CC
Mt. 28:19
Jn. 17:18
Jn. 20: 20-23
Out of space,
Pat/PJM
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SteveVH
Guest
It occurs to me that none of the reasons that you have given were in any way instrumental in the creation of the the Church of England. I need to be very careful here because I know at least a few of the posters on this thread know immensely more than I do about the whole situation and I would certainly defer to their expertise. However, I find it a little odd that one would be attracted to an ecclesial community that grew out of the selfish and immoral desires of a king. Until that point, they were Catholic and there was not, to my knowledge, any controversy surrounding male-only priesthood, how we treat Mary, the monarchical model, Infallibility or the claim of the Church to be the one, true Church. There is only one thing you mentioned that was at issue and that was governing “the church more or less any way we like”, That is exactly what Henry VIII wanted and that apparently appeals to you as well, which is why the later developments that you have cited, the theological and disciplinary diiferences, came about.
You know if you follow this river upstream in search of the source, you will find the Catholic Church, not the Church of England and its offshoots, or any other Church. There is only one Church because Christ started only one Church. The Church of England and its various branches chose to denominate from that one, true Church. The issues you seem to have indicate to me that you do not really understand them but I see they have been addressed very well here so I won’t go into them individually at this point. But why would you leave the only Church that can without question trace its succession back to Peter; that was given the authority to bind, even in heaven, that which is bound on earth and to loose, even in heaven, that which is loosed on earth.
I would say think long and hard on this one and give it enough effort to where you are absolutely convinced that you can no longer remain in the Catholic Church. What truth are you willing to give up?
You know if you follow this river upstream in search of the source, you will find the Catholic Church, not the Church of England and its offshoots, or any other Church. There is only one Church because Christ started only one Church. The Church of England and its various branches chose to denominate from that one, true Church. The issues you seem to have indicate to me that you do not really understand them but I see they have been addressed very well here so I won’t go into them individually at this point. But why would you leave the only Church that can without question trace its succession back to Peter; that was given the authority to bind, even in heaven, that which is bound on earth and to loose, even in heaven, that which is loosed on earth.
I would say think long and hard on this one and give it enough effort to where you are absolutely convinced that you can no longer remain in the Catholic Church. What truth are you willing to give up?
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GKC
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I won’t thump you too much on this one. But remember that history is complicated. What Henry asked for, and expected to get (his decree of nullity) was routine in the day. Politics and theology were yoked and intertwined. And the relationship between the English Crown and the Church was contentious, stretching back for several centuries, as the rulers attempted to reduce the influence of the political power outside England over the Church within England, and increase the same, for the throne. Long series of Parliamentary Acts and Royal decrees, sometimes countered with responses from Rome. It didn’t start with Hank. Though he was a perfect storm to cause the explosion, when it came.
If Henry had sired a basketball team of legitimate, healthy, and virile male offspring, by Catherine, the storm would have passed, for the time. But eventually, it would have broken. Nascent nationalism was driving history.
GKC
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asd72
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Still, Henry did make himself head of the Church in England because he knew he couldn’t get what he wanted honestly from the Pope. As much as politics and the Church were entwined in those days, it doesn’t make it right. Henry’s authority did not come from God, and St Thomas Moore recognized and died for this fact.
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GKC
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The political wrappings were the prime reason Henry couldn’t get his decree of nullity. His causa was easily as strong (though not as strong as it potentially could have been) as was common in the day. Stronger than his sister Margaret’s causa, in her first try for a decree of nullity. Margaret got hers.
But I agree that a hybrid system of politics/theology was not desirable.
GKC
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SteveVH
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Well I expected to get thumped a little on this and have to say that you were very gracious. Thank you for that. I realize that things were a little more complicated than I made them. My point is that the reasoning behind the OP considering leaving Catholicism for the Episcopal Church had nothing to do with why the Episcopal Church exists. He simply seems attracted to all of those non-Catholic attributes that now exist in the Episcopal Church. Simply put, as complicated as its history may be, the Church of England did not split with Rome over doctrinal or theological differences. It was more in the political realm, generally speaking. Women in the priesthood, non-celibate priests, etc., were not issues until fairly recently.
Always enjoy and learn much from your posts. Thanks for being gentle.
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Indifferently
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The Church of England which shaped English worship and spirituality owes a lot more to Queen Elizabeth I’s via media settlement than to King Henry VIII. Yes, Henry basically usurped the Pope and called himself Head of the Catholic Church in England, but what happened subsequently following Henry’s death is what made the Church of England.
The Reformation could have happened in England without Henry. Indeed, he was not a reformer, just an impatient politician, not too dissimilar from the popes of the time. Cranmer’s Prayer Book is the essence of my belief, and I doubt Henry would have liked it very much. Indeed, Henry’s religious views earned him the title of ‘defender of the faith’ from Rome.
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liquidayno
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FWIW (as you consider leaving the Catholic Church to join the Episcopal Church):
My boss came to work this morning describing how his Episcopal Church just finished a 3-week Adult Sunday School series on Human Sexuality. It culminated Sunday in its 3rd week with the 26 year old daughter of a parishioner explaining via scripture and her personal experience why it was consistent for her to be a practicing Lesbian and that she could still be a practicing Christian in good standing with God and the Church. She used several Biblical passages interpreted in her own way to justify her position. The priest sat there smiling in approval of the content and message.
FWIW.
My boss came to work this morning describing how his Episcopal Church just finished a 3-week Adult Sunday School series on Human Sexuality. It culminated Sunday in its 3rd week with the 26 year old daughter of a parishioner explaining via scripture and her personal experience why it was consistent for her to be a practicing Lesbian and that she could still be a practicing Christian in good standing with God and the Church. She used several Biblical passages interpreted in her own way to justify her position. The priest sat there smiling in approval of the content and message.
FWIW.
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Indifferently
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This is quite clearly contrary to the Bible, and is therefore unlawful according to the Thirty Nine Articles.
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GKC
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GKC
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Henry’s religious views, and a couple of other things, got him the title of Defensor Fidei.
GKC
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SteveVH
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Thank you, you make some great points. I really didn’t mean to head off into the history of the Church of England. I just find the OP’s reasons for considering the Episcopal Church interesting since they had nothing to do with the founding of the Church of England. It is not as though the Church of England was standing up against the heretical doctrines of the Catholic Church or something. I don’t think women were allowed into the priesthood at that time, not too many lesbian bishops around then, and Henry certainly had no problem with monarchies. These are all modern issues that would have the first Anglicans spinning in their graves and I’m not sure they would recognize the Episcopal Church today.
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Indifferently
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The monarchs still use the title to this day, though Prince Charles has worryingly suggested he will change it to ‘defender of faith’ not ‘THE faith’. Apparently the gay marriage bill being pushed through parliament could run into legal trouble because of the nature of the Queen’s coronation oath which she, as a seriously devout woman, will affirm she does not have the authority to break.
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GKC
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You’re very welcome, and thank you. But don’t totally discount the doctrinal point. To claim the Papacy did not exercise a universal ordinary authority, which is essentially what Henry did, is in the doctrinal realm.
I agree that the reasons that the CoE, and hence Anglicanism, came into separate existence don’t seem relevant to the OP’s reasoning. But it seems, from his posts, that the current manifestation of one form of Anglicanism. whatever its history in getting there, resonates with the OP’s current positions. Hence, I felt he would fit there, to the extent I could understand his positions, and to the extent that he maintains them.
As you might know, I would never recommend that anyone join the Episcopal Church. But it’s possible to discern when someone is (alas) a good match for it.
GKC
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GKC
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The title that the Monarch uses today is actually not literally the same title that Leo gave Henry. It’s an interesting story, that I’ve told before, how Henry came by that little title, how Mary removed it, and Parliament re-attached it to the Throne.
I know about Charlies and his quirks. Sad.
GKC
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SteveVH
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True, but was this a widespread doctrinal dispute or more a political decision with Henry as the beneficiary? It makes a lot of sense that the intermingling of political and religious figures is bound to get ugly at some point. With the political power of the Church at that time it is not really surprising that it would be a threat to a monarchy, regardless of the leader. Still, even though the reason for the separation is understandable, it would make no sense to me to join a church, the basis of which was political. Why not just go for the real thing?
Agreed.
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GKC
Guest
It was not merely the intermingling of political and religious figures. It was the melding of political and theological actions. The complicated system of impediments/dispensations/decrees of nullity Henry and the times functioned under was developed and continued to evolve in the period, to permit two things to be done simultaneously: allow the Church to maintain control of the sacrament of marriage, and permit the making/breaking of marriages for reason of state. Theology intertwined with politics. Until Trent, Session XXIV, took it in hand a little. Henry was rightly expecting to get a good outcome, he made the usual case. But he ran into a more powerful nexus of realpolitik.
Eventually, the rise of nationalism was going to bring an end to this sort of hybrid system, in Europe, in general; it was wide-spread in its eventual consequences. And Henry was the match to a lengthy fuse, in England, bringing it to a head, there.
GKC
Eventually, the rise of nationalism was going to bring an end to this sort of hybrid system, in Europe, in general; it was wide-spread in its eventual consequences. And Henry was the match to a lengthy fuse, in England, bringing it to a head, there.
GKC
True, but was this a widespread doctrinal dispute or more a political decision with Henry as the beneficiary? It makes a lot of sense that the intermingling of political and religious figures is bound to get ugly at some point. With the political power of the Church at that time it is not really surprising that it would be a threat to a monarchy, regardless of the leader. Still, even though the reason for the separation is understandable, it would make no sense to me to join a church, the basis of which was political. Why not just go for the real thing?
Agreed.
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