KJV Bible and Catholics

[tobinatorstark]

I can’t see how that belief is justified. Human and Sinless is an oxymoron. Again, there was only one who was sinless. Mary grew in grace just as we have the same opportunity.

Sin to me equals choice against light. Our fallen nature or the natural man is continually sinful. the atonement gives us the opportunity to repent and stay the course. I hold it that Mary was not spared the very human experience that lead to her eventual salvation.

Thank you for the link - i will participate there as well.

Vinny

Some things I do have a hard time explaining about. Keep in mind though, Catholics believe that Jesus was divine as well as human in a sense. When you say choice against light, I assume that you mean against God which is the light??? There are some things we don’t know 100% because that is what God will reveal to us. Here at CAF I just want to make sure that you are welcomed warmly and that ok to ask questions and state your opinions. While I can’t give you every answer that you are looking for, but I enjoy chatting with you and helping you lead towards God. I believe we can’t get there alone, but helping each other get their is just one of things that is charitable and pleasing to God

 

[rinnie]

Try this - Though you are baptised and obtain the Holy Spirit as your companion, the Spirit can not abide in unholy temples and will withdraw as you make choises contrary to the right way. When you ripen in iniquity, the Spirit withdraws completely and lets the consequences of your action take place… essentially, the covenant is broken, not by God but by man and you fall from grace. Is this not so?

So too did the church of God - as there was prophesied that there would be a falling away. (2 Thes. 2:3).

Restoration of all things is a pattern we will get to experience first hand… when we receive our body back again. Likewise the church has been restored and principles that have been lost are now revealed and continue to be so.

Respectfully - Vinny

See I am seeing in differently. Yes many will fall away from the Church but where does it say the the Church of God would fall away. I saw that he gave the Church to Peter, the Rock and said the Church would indeed prevail, not fall away. Now how could this Church the RCC still be here today.

Jesus said the teaching of his church will never change. The same today as yesterday and tommorow. Again why does it say that we are to stay true to the teachings of the early Church. Again why would he leave us the Apostles and tell us to stay to their teachings. You still havent quiet answered that. So I guess what I am asking (you were Catholic right) that you believe that he would leave the Church to Peter, have him pass on the teachings, and then pick someone other then the Pope to reveal this to us. And again no disrespect but are you saying by your first paragraph that the Holy Spirit does not exist in the RCC. And how can the convenant be broken when the Eucharist is the new Covenant Christ made to us.

 

[rinnie]

I can’t see how that belief is justified. Human and Sinless is an oxymoron. Again, there was only one who was sinless. Mary grew in grace just as we have the same opportunity.

Sin to me equals choice against light. Our fallen nature or the natural man is continually sinful. the atonement gives us the opportunity to repent and stay the course. I hold it that Mary was not spared the very human experience that lead to her eventual salvation.

Thank you for the link - i will participate there as well.

Vinny

The best way to describe Mary Vinny is to quote the bible. Hail Mary Full of Grace. It is impossible to be full of grace and have sin, IT is through the Grace of God that we turn away from sin. Again Mary was filled with the Grace of God the day she was conceived. It was through our Lord and Savior that the Grace was given to her. That is why she was chosen to be the Mother Of Jesus. Hail Mary Full of Grace the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Where there is Fullness of Grace and God with you, there is no room for sin.

 

[tobinatorstark]

The best way to describe Mary Vinny is to quote the bible. Hail Mary Full of Grace. It is impossible to be full of grace and have sin, IT is through the Grace of God that we turn away from sin. Again Mary was filled with the Grace of God the day she was conceived. It was through our Lord and Savior that the Grace was given to her. That is why she was chosen to be the Mother Of Jesus. Hail Mary Full of Grace the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Where there is Fullness of Grace and God with you, there is no room for sin.

Good expalaination. I wish I could have though of that earlier.

 

[twb1621]

Try this - Though you are baptised and obtain the Holy Spirit as your companion, the Spirit can not abide in unholy temples and will withdraw as you make choises contrary to the right way. When you ripen in iniquity, the Spirit withdraws completely and lets the consequences of your action take place… essentially, the covenant is broken, not by God but by man and you fall from grace. Is this not so?

So too did the church of God - as there was prophesied that there would be a falling away. (2 Thes. 2:3).

Restoration of all things is a pattern we will get to experience first hand… when we receive our body back again. Likewise the church has been restored and principles that have been lost are now revealed and continue to be so.

Respectfully - Vinny

Vinny, Your interpretation is inaccurate. The Biblical interpretation for this is not what you think and is as follows;

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2
1 1 We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, 2 not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a “spirit,” 2 or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, 3 the one doomed to perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, 4 claiming that he is a god - 5 do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, 5 that he may be revealed in his time. 7 6 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, 9 the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie, 10 and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved. 11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, 12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned. 13 But we ought to give thanks to God for you always, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits 7 for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth. 14 To this end he has (also) called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. 8 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting encouragement and good hope through his grace, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen them in every good deed and word.

Biblical Interpretation;
[1-17] The Thessalonians have been shaken by a message purporting to come from Paul himself that the day of the Lord is already present. He warns against this deception in eschatology by citing a scenario of events that must first occur (⇒ 2 Thes 2:3-12) before the end will come. The overall point Paul makes is the need to reject such lies as Satan sends; he also reaffirms the Thessalonians in their calling (⇒ 2 Thes 2:13-14). They are to uphold what Paul himself has taught (⇒ 2 Thes 2:15). There is a concluding prayer for their strengthening (⇒ 2 Thes 2:16-17). As in ⇒ 2 Thes 1:8-10, the Old Testament provides a good deal of coloring; cf especially ⇒ Isaiah 14:13-14; ⇒ 66:15, ⇒ 18-21; ⇒ Ezekiel 28:2-9; ⇒ Daniel 11:36-37. The contents of ⇒ 2 Thes 2:3b-8 may come from a previously existing apocalypse. The details have been variously interpreted. An alternative to the possibilities noted below understands that an oracular utterance, supposedly coming from a prophetic spirit (⇒ 2 Thes 2:2-3a), has so disrupted the community’s thinking that its effects may be compared to those of the mania connected with the worship of the Greek god Dionysus. On this view, the writer seems to allude in ⇒ 2 Thes 2:6-8 to Dionysiac “seizure,” although, of course, ironically, somewhat as Paul alludes to witchcraft (“an evil eye”) in ⇒ Gal 3:1 in speaking of the threat to faith posed by those disturbing the Galatians (⇒ Gal 1:6-7; ⇒ 5:10b). On this view of ⇒ 2 Thes 2:2, the Greek participles katechon (rendered above as what is restraining) and katechon (the one who restrains) are to be translated “the seizing power” in ⇒ 2 Thes 2:6 and “the seizer” in ⇒ 2 Thes 2:7. They then allude to a pseudocharismatic force or spirit of Dionysiac character that has suddenly taken hold of the Thessalonian community (see ⇒ 2 Thes 2:2). The addressees know (⇒ 2 Thes 2:6) this force or spirit because of the problem it is causing. This pseudocharismatic force or spirit is a kind of anticipation and advance proof of the ultimate, climactic figure (the lawless one or the rebel, ⇒ 2 Thes 2:3), of which the community has been warned (see the note on ⇒ 1 Thes 3:3). It is, however, only the beginning of the end that the latter’s manifestation entails; the end is not yet. For in the course of the mystery of lawlessness (⇒ 2 Thes 2:7), false prophetism, after it ceases in the Thessalonian community, will be manifested in the world at large (⇒ 2 Thes 2:8-12), where it will also be eliminated in turn by the Lord Jesus.

 

[twb1621]

Try this - Though you are baptised and obtain the Holy Spirit as your companion, the Spirit can not abide in unholy temples and will withdraw as you make choises contrary to the right way. When you ripen in iniquity, the Spirit withdraws completely and lets the consequences of your action take place… essentially, the covenant is broken, not by God but by man and you fall from grace. Is this not so?
Respectfully - Vinny

I’m sorry, but I have to say no this is not true. Vinny, man cannot break a covenant that God Himself makes, nor would God cancel His covenant for the sake of individual sinners when there would always be faithful involved. Man can only condemn himself. This covenant was made by God, not made by man. Any individual who betrays the salvation of God does in deed loose the presence of the Holy Spirit as you say however he seperates himself as an individual from God not the Church. God would never break His covenant and part of the covenant was that the Church would not fail through His return.

 

[twb1621]

In regard to Mary;
Perhaps it would help to understand and to keep in mind not only that the “woman” spoken of in the OT was Mary in the prophecies but also that she was predestined to suffer the pain of the sword as prophesied by Simeon at the temple. This was the reason Jesus referred to her as “woman” at times referring her to those prophacies. In fact, if you make the Comparison , Mary’s life was (although a difference in degrees) to parallel the life of Jesus right down to His passion and suffering yet she remained as silent in her suffering as Jesus in His. It is a fact recognized by all Christians that the Blood of Christ is the Blood of our salvation. Mary was born full of grace and created by God with purity to be the ark of the new covenant just as God directed the construction of the ark of the old covenant. Mary was even more precious because it would be the Son of God who she would carry.
But most importantly, it should not be difficult to understand that if the blood of Jesus is the source of our salvation, this very blood pulsating through the veins of Jesus flowed through the veins of Mary and from her through Him. Her devotion and her immaculate nature could not have been flawed to start with and certainly could not have been soiled after sharing the living blood of Christ. If it were, there would be no salvation at all from the spilling of this very same blood and their shared torment and suffering. In sharing such a parallel it would also be a logical expectation that Jesus would have wanted her assumption as well.

As far as scripture, It would also stand to reason that considering the persecution of Christians at that time, the Apostles would have been very protective of Mary in her remaining years avoiding writing or any public proclamations having to do with her that might be used against her in some way. The logical thought would be that information regarding her life and death and assumption was passed on through Sacred Tradition but kept protected until such a time it could more safely be revealed along with the location she was originally laid to rest before the assumption. (Theoretically)

Some excerpts to ponder;
64. “Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts. [Cf. Is 2:2-4 ; Jer 31:31-34 ; Heb 10:16 .] The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation, which will include all the nations. [Cf. Ezek 3:6; Is 49:5-6; Is 53:11 .] Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary. [Cf. Ezek 2:3 ; Lk 1:38 .]”
148. “The Virgin Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith. By faith Mary welcomes the tidings and promise brought by the angel Gabriel, believing that ‘with God nothing will be impossible’ and so giving her assent: ‘Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be (done) to me according to your word.’ [Lk 1:37-38; cf. Gen 18:14.] Elizabeth greeted her: ‘Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.’ [Lk 1:45 .] It is for this faith that all generations have called Mary blessed. [Cf. Lk 1:48.]”
273. “Only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God’s almighty power. This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ’s power. [Cf. 2 Cor 12:9 ; Phil 4:13.] The Virgin Mary is the supreme model of this faith, for she believed that ‘nothing will be impossible with God’, and was able to magnify the Lord: ‘For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.’ [Lk 1:37, 49.]”
487. “What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.”
490. “To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary ‘was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.’ [LG 56.] The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as ‘full of grace’. [Lk 1:28 .] In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.”
491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. [Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.]”
catscans.com/catholicsite/mary.htm

 

[twb1621]

Some things I do have a hard time explaining about. Keep in mind though, Catholics believe that Jesus was divine as well as human in a sense. When you say choice against light, I assume that you mean against God which is the light??? There are some things we don’t know 100% because that is what God will reveal to us. Here at CAF I just want to make sure that you are welcomed warmly and that ok to ask questions and state your opinions. While I can’t give you every answer that you are looking for, but I enjoy chatting with you and helping you lead towards God. I believe we can’t get there alone, but helping each other get their is just one of things that is charitable and pleasing to God

very well said…

 

[savedsinner]

What type of distortions? Examples would be nice.

I know Catholics who use the KJV, though I don’t know their reasons for such. I’m starting to use the Orthodox Study Bible on a regular basis for personal use which includes a NKJV New Testament. Thus far, my faith in Catholic doctrines has hardly been shaken by such a translation.

**KJV - John 1:42 **
And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone).

RSV - John 1:42
He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter).

Translating “Petros” to “stone” instead of “Peter” in this passage is a good way to dismiss Matthew Chapter 16:18 as pointing to Peter as the rock.

Distortion??? Well lets look at how the KJV translates a couple of words:

Every other time “Petros” is used in the KJV, is is translated “Peter”
Every other time “Stone” is used in the KJV, it is translated from the word “Lithos”

Why would they translate it this way only once in the entire New Testament if it is not a distortion.

 

[tobinatorstark]

You know what? I am a SSPXer and I do not even own a Douay Rheims. I read off the website of the Vatican. vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_index_lt.html

or www.drbo.com

Or I read the Bible in my native Vietnamese or English when I have no internet access.

did you know that the Nova Vulgata is significantly different from the previous editions of the Latin Vulgate from Jerome to the Clementine in which the OT was translated from. NT was translated from the previous edition I believe. Correct me if I am wrong. I love www.drbo.com as well, but I will not read the link that directs me to the Vulgate as it is the Struggart and it is Protestant if you didn’t know that already. I would however use the struggart as a comparison though.

 

[FCEGM]

I can’t see how that belief is justified. Human and Sinless is an oxymoron. Again, there was only one who was sinless. Mary grew in grace just as we have the same opportunity.

Sin to me equals choice against light. Our fallen nature or the natural man is continually sinful. the atonement gives us the opportunity to repent and stay the course. I hold it that Mary was not spared the very human experience that lead to her eventual salvation.

Thank you for the link - i will participate there as well.

Vinny

Welcome to CAF, Vinny.

It is not accurate to say that being human and sinless is an oxymoron, since Adam and Eve (before the Fall) were both - as was Our Lord Who in His human nature was totally sinless. To be sinful is to be less than human, less than what we were/are created to be. Christ Who is fully human; it is we, in our fallen state, who are not yet fully human. Christ Jesus is the Model and Goal for humanity, not vice-versa. Only when we by His merits are conformed to Him by divine grace will our humanity be all that it should be. Only when we by His merits are conformed to Him by divine grace will our humanity be all that it should be - all that Mary was graced with from the moment of her conception in her mother’s womb in view of the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.

 

[FCEGM]

Try this - Though you are baptised and obtain the Holy Spirit as your companion, the Spirit can not abide in unholy temples and will withdraw as you make choises contrary to the right way. When you ripen in iniquity, the Spirit withdraws completely and lets the consequences of your action take place… essentially, the covenant is broken, not by God but by man and you fall from grace. Is this not so?

So too did the church of God - as there was prophesied that there would be a falling away. (2 Thes. 2:3).

Restoration of all things is a pattern we will get to experience first hand… when we receive our body back again. Likewise the church has been restored and principles that have been lost are now revealed and continue to be so.

Respectfully - Vinny

Regarding the supposed need for a “restoration”, you might find this article from THIS ROCK of interest (along with the other links I’ve included):

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9203fea.asp

catholic.com/library/problems_with_the_book_of_mormon.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9611conv.asp

 

[VinnyDee78]

When you say choice against light, I assume that you mean against God which is the light??? There are some things we don’t know 100% because that is what God will reveal to us. Here at CAF I just want to make sure that you are welcomed warmly and that ok to ask questions and state your opinions.

Yes, God is the source of all truth and light. But to have the light on any particular topic is to know. You can transgress laws you know nothing about, but to sin you have to have knowledge.

That’s why Latter-day Saints do not believe in the concept of original sin and rather they believe in an age of accountability when we become responsible for knowing. Infant baptism is wrong and denies the mercies of a just God.

I feel very welcomed here and the dialog has been very mature and uplifting. I hope that you consider what I say and the Lord give thee understanding.

 

[twb1621]

If one considers that Christianity originated in one entity established by Jesus, His Church, and anyone at all wants to start their own “Christian” based religion, they must without any question try to discredit the original Church in order to establish their own credability and attract members. This my Brothers and Sisters is why the Catholic Church is ALWAYS the center target of other Christian faiths. That is not rocket science, just common sense.

 

[VinnyDee78]

If one considers that Christianity originated in one entity established by Jesus, His Church, and anyone at all wants to start their own “Christian” based religion, they must without any question try to discredit the original Church in order to establish their own credability and attract members. This my Brothers and Sisters is why the Catholic Church is ALWAYS the center target of other Christian faiths. That is not rocket science, just common sense.

We share a common heritage here. Has the Catholic church likewise experienced to any degree the protestors and mobs and been harassed at your sanctuaries with approval of Proposition 8?

We have a rich heritage of persecution that is also not rocket science - who and what does the adversary fight the most vehemently against?

 

[FCEGM]

Yes, God is the source of all truth and light. But to have the light on any particular topic is to know. You can transgress laws you know nothing about, but to sin you have to have knowledge.

That’s why Latter-day Saints do not believe in the concept of original sin and rather they believe in an age of accountability when we become responsible for knowing. Infant baptism is wrong and denies the mercies of a just God.

Well, infant baptism is neither wrong nor does it deny the mercies of a just God - quite the opposite! But to discuss this it would be helpful to know what your understanding of Original Sin is.

 

[twb1621]

Yes, God is the source of all truth and light. But to have the light on any particular topic is to know. You can transgress laws you know nothing about, but to sin you have to have knowledge.

That’s why Latter-day Saints do not believe in the concept of original sin and rather they believe in an age of accountability when we become responsible for knowing. Infant baptism is wrong and denies the mercies of a just God.

I feel very welcomed here and the dialog has been very mature and uplifting. I hope that you consider what I say and the Lord give thee understanding.

Something to consider regarding existance of Original Sin for your review;

“…Some may object to the idea of inheriting sin; however, these people forget about human solidarity - the human race as one big family. Even though we are responsible for our actions due to human free will, our deeds still affect other people and vice versa. If I drive while drunk, my action can deprive someone else of their life. If my children see me stealing, then they will more likely choose to steal as a result of my example and so on. Now original sin is not due to our action, so it is not our personal fault (CCC 405). However as a result of human solidarity and Adam as the father of the human race, we still inherit the state of Adam’s sin - “a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice” [CCC 404]. This disharmony between human free will and human solidarity is a consequence of original sin.”
Excerpt from;
users.binary.net/polycarp/origsin.html

 

[FCEGM]

Something to consider regarding existance of Original Sin for your review;

“…Some may object to the idea of inheriting sin; however, these people forget about human solidarity - the human race as one big family. Even though we are responsible for our actions due to human free will, our deeds still affect other people and vice versa. If I drive while drunk, my action can deprive someone else of their life. If my children see me stealing, then they will more likely choose to steal as a result of my example and so on. Now original sin is not due to our action, so it is not our personal fault (CCC 405). However as a result of human solidarity and Adam as the father of the human race, we still inherit the state of Adam’s sin - “a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice” [CCC 404]. This disharmony between human free will and human solidarity is a consequence of original sin.”
Excerpt from;
users.binary.net/polycarp/origsin.html

Thanks for this, Tom; the site is new to me.

 

[requiemaeturnum]

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never called you ignorant. If I did please point the word “ignorant” in a passage that I posted. I would reconsider the priesthood, until you fully recognize what the church teaches as well what the Bible states too. How can a man remove a splinter in his brother’s eye when he hasn’t removed the splinter in his own eye? So you are admitting you are anti-protestant and everyone, but Catholics are going to hell?? Please explain. These are just signs of total bigotry and selfishness.

This is totally uncalled for. It is rude, inconsiderate and unchristian like. We must help those who err in truth with kindness and open arms rather than condemnation and damnation. Vinny is just a normal person looking for answers as all are we. Even though he isn’t of the Catholic faith doesn’t make him a bad person and you should not trash his beliefs the way you have. I this manner that you have demonstrated is demeaningful and disrespectful to just me or Vinny, but Catholic, Christians and God. Based on all the post I have read that you have posted, they seem filled with hatred and bigotry. Please stop and think what you are doing before you do it.

Vinny,

I am sorry for this man’s behavior towards you. Sorry I haven’t answered your posts yet. I will soon. You are a good man. Never lose faith.

This is making me laugh.

Didn’t you sarcastically say that you didn’t think I knew the Nicene Creed. Would you like me to type it up in Latin for you?

Have you ever heard of “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus”?

Yes I am anti-Protestant, no I do not believe everyone but Catholics are going to Hell. Perhaps most they will. Perhaps they won’t. But yes, I believe in EENS.

And perhaps Vinny is not a bad person, but keep in mind he converted to Mormonism. He rejected the Truth. He rejected Christ.

And quite honestly, was my comment uncalled for? Have you ever read the Book of the Mormon? I have and I am completely convinced after reading it, that the Native americans had knowledge of Hebrew and Egyptian and that they were bronze smiths, road chariots and were descendants of the Tribe of Israel.

So now you are calling me a bigot?

Stop going around apologising for me. I will do that myself if I find a need to.

 

[twb1621]

We share a common heritage here. Has the Catholic church likewise experienced to any degree the protestors and mobs and been harassed at your sanctuaries with approval of Proposition 8?

We have a rich heritage of persecution that is also not rocket science - who and what does the adversary fight the most vehemently against?

Vinny, actually the persecution has been a constant against the Catholic Faithful and we have been consistantly brutally murdered for simply not renouncing Jesus up through to today in many many places including India. 2000 years worth and still We keep going… Amen