KJV easier to defend Catholic doctrine than the NAB?!

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HillbillyHermit

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I’ve seen at least a few posts stating this, for example:
Here and Here

To me, it’ll still boils down to:
A) Trusting the Church’s approval of a translation. (I just can’t stand lately to see/hear Catholics say so much about the teaching authority of the Church then turn around and bash an approved translation and its notes. IMO it’s the same as being a Protestant and setting yourself up as higher authority on these things.)
OR
B) An anti-Catholic king.
 
I’ve seen at least a few posts stating this, for example:
Here and Here

To me, it’ll still boils down to:
A) Trusting the Church’s approval of a translation. (I just can’t stand lately to see/hear Catholics say so much about the teaching authority of the Church then turn around and bash an approved translation and its notes. IMO it’s the same as being a Protestant and setting yourself up as higher authority on these things.)
OR
B) An anti-Catholic king.
I think it all boils down to historical-criticism at the heart of the matter. The NABRE has improved the NAB translation overall (with a couple of disputed verses), but the notes remain historical-critical based and there are many on this forum who don’t like them (and a few who even call them heretical). I came to Catholicism and was exposed to historical-criticism from the beginning, especially while attending a three year ‘Catholic Bible Institute’ (only a year after my confirmation), which was offered at a local Catholic University in cooperation with my Archdiocese. Some think that this kind of scripture teaching tears down your faith, but for me the opposite was true. A knowledge of historical-critical teachings prepares one for the attack on the Bible by agnostics and atheists (like Bart Ehrman). Being able to look at the scriptures spiritually and critically allows me the confidence that my faith in them will stand up to any challenges made by those who would like to discount them!
 
It could also be that problem we are all subject to when to accepting or trusting one translation over the other, namely…
  • that we often believe that everyone sees things as we do (or at least should be able to),
  • that everyone reasons or can reason as we do (when the steps of reason actually differ from culture to culture as well as person from person),
  • and that we understand things in the first place.
It’s like the doctor who tells his patient to follow the instructions on his medicine bottle, assuming the patient understands and sees things (or at least should see them) one way…

…and the patient going outside to shake the foundations of his water well before taking a dose (because the instructions say: “Shake well vigorously before taking a dose.”).

If the KJV makes sense to you more than another translation, by all means use it. Of course this may be due to the fact that you are more familiar with its terminology. Having been born into a Catholic family I find the KJV confusing and very difficult to follow. I grew up with the NAB and, of course, I would choose it over the KJV (though I prefer the RSV-CE over the two).

But consider this: Would it be easy for you to defend the faith with a KJV with someone who only reads the text in Hebrew or uses the Tanakh version? Would it be effective to use the KJV with a Jehovah’s Witness? How well would you discuss a matter within the Church with another Catholic who is Latin-Vulgate only (maybe Douay, if they feel like it)?

The point I am making is don’t get too comfortable. Be ready to change when you need to.

Be grateful that you are part of a religion with various translations to choose from (many religions allow only one official translation and outright forbid the use of others). Take advantage of the Catholic Church in this matter and learn from all approved sources. While you may still end up being more effective with your KJV, you can always do better if you at least learn to use a translation that the “other side” prefers.

As it is written: “I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”–1 Corinthians 9:22, KJV.
 
The question is: did Paul forgive sins in the person of Christ (in persona Christi)? Yes. The NAB says “presence” of Christ, just as do many non-Catholic bibles.

Is Mary full of grace? Yes. The NAB says “favored one” - Even the KJV says “highly favored” Should not scripture defend the “Hail, Mary” prayer?

Non-Catholics were consulted with, and a Presbyterian minister was directly involved in the NAB translation.

The Vatican would not permit the NAB to be utilized in the liturgy until it gender neutral language had been corrected. Yet, the Vatican-approved version is not commonly available or sold at parishes. Copyright issues?

The NAB is peculiarly American, is used only in the US (and the Philippines, I think). Its copyright is held by the USCCB, a 501c3 organization that is entirely separate from the Church.

That being said, if you are a Catholic and reasonably well catechized, the NAB (its footnotes are quite another issue) can serve you well. But, in conversation with bible alone Christians, there are better bible available to defend Catholic teaching.
 
Well I would say that God, aka Jesus Christ, defends the KJV Bible.

Apparently, God’s signature is found encoded throughout the KJV Bible.

Simply click on the flashing words “Watch / Listen” which is located at goo.gl/38qhp and see for yourself.

This will take you on a web page tour of God’s signatures, and will do so via automatic web page scrolling that is in sync with the narration. ( A cool method of giving a website tour )

It’s about 10 minutes long.
 
Well I would say that God, aka Jesus Christ, defends the KJV Bible.

Apparently, God’s signature is found encoded throughout the KJV Bible.

Simply click on the flashing words “Watch / Listen” which is located at goo.gl/38qhp and see for yourself.

This will take you on a web page tour of God’s signatures, and will do so via automatic web page scrolling that is in sync with the narration. ( A cool method of giving a website tour )

It’s about 10 minutes long.
Utter nonsense. Gnosticism.
 
Non-Catholics were consulted with, and a Presbyterian minister was directly involved in the NAB translation.

The Vatican would not permit the NAB to be utilized in the liturgy until it gender neutral language had been corrected. Yet, the Vatican-approved version is not commonly available or sold at parishes. Copyright issues?
While I am not sure if you are stating this in the positive or the negative, Dei Verbum, No. 22, does suggest that whenever and wherever possible non-Catholics should participate in the production of Bible translations. As the introduction to the NABRE states, quoting this direction:

In accord with the suggestion of Vatican II that “with the approval of the church authority, these translation be produced in cooperation with separated brothers” so that “all Christians may be able to use them.”

As for the NAB being used or not used due to gender-neutral language, that is not exactly correct.

No Catholic Bible translation in the vernacular, as a whole, gets read in the Liturgy “as is.”

What appears in the Lectionary in the vernacular is to be a translation of the original Latin version. Instead of translating this word-for-word, with approval of Church authority those translating it may substitute a vernacular version already in use, changing it where necessary so that it reads as the Latin does.

This means no one who hears the Lectionary reading is hearing any vernacular translation as it reads off the shelf. All translations have had to be changed in order to fit the readings in the Latin.

As to the NAB being used in the Liturgy, it has been employed since its beginning. It’s never been rejected as a whole for using inclusive language, and that is because it doesn’t really use it.

You often read where people accuse the NAB for using “brothers and sisters” in some areas in epistle readings, but this is not from the NAB. That is a reading of introduction that occurs in the Lectionary itself and the only place you will hear that is at Mass, whereas the NAB only uses “brothers” and never “brothers and sisters” in its own original text. The intro to the NAB NT reads: “This translation retains the usage of brothers.” The inclusive-language comes from translation of the Lectionary from the Latin, not the NAB.

The only time “inclusive-language” became an issue was the 1991 revision of the Psalter. It was not allowed to be used as a basis for the English liturgy and that particular version of the Psalter did not appear as on the Vatican website as a result.
 
Well I would say that God, aka Jesus Christ, defends the KJV Bible.

Apparently, God’s signature is found encoded throughout the KJV Bible.

Simply click on the flashing words “Watch / Listen” which is located at goo.gl/38qhp and see for yourself.

This will take you on a web page tour of God’s signatures, and will do so via automatic web page scrolling that is in sync with the narration. ( A cool method of giving a website tour )

It’s about 10 minutes long.
Utter nonsense. Gnosticism.
Did you examine the outstanding evidence?
Or did you place yourself above God by ignoring his very works which are now at hand.
Please do not respond immediately to this question if you have to think it over about who the boss, meaning, you or God.
 
As with Vatican II, it is the implementation of Dei Verbum that can be problematic. A perhaps distorted sense of true ecumenism lead to the NAB, I believe.

All Catholics are taught that Mary is “full of grace.” Yet, she is not in the NAB. Who is? Saint Stephen the Martyr in Acts 6:8!

“Now Stephen, filled with grace and power, was working great wonders and signs among the people.”
 
Did you examine the outstanding evidence?
Or did you place yourself above God by ignoring his very works which are now at hand.
Please do not respond immediately to this question if you have to think it over about who the boss, meaning, you or God.
Why? “For many will come in my name. Do not follow them.”

Bible coders are essentially conspiracy theorists. Why does this only occur in English? And, why only after the scriptures had been divided into chapter and verse?
 
Did you examine the outstanding evidence?
Or did you place yourself above God by ignoring his very works which are now at hand.
Please do not respond immediately to this question if you have to think it over about who the boss, meaning, you or God.
Why? “For many will come in my name. Do not follow them.” …
OK…so what’s your name?
 
As with Vatican II, it is the implementation of Dei Verbum that can be problematic. A perhaps distorted sense of true ecumenism lead to the NAB, I believe.

All Catholics are taught that Mary is “full of grace.” Yet, she is not in the NAB. Who is? Saint Stephen the Martyr in Acts 6:8!

“Now Stephen, filled with grace and power, was working great wonders and signs among the people.”
I actually read koine Greek. The NAB is not incorrect in its rendering of Luke 1:28 in that the NAB is a translation from the original language manuscripts. In Greek the words are:

Chaire kecharitomene, [h]o Kyrios meta sou.

Or literally, “Greetings graced [meaning “favored from above”] person, the Lord is with you.”

The expression, “full of grace” comes from the Aramaic (because Mary, a Jew, would have spoken Aramaic–a form of Hebrew that developed after the Babylonian diaspora).

The Greek doesn’t capture the Hebrew/Aramaic concept at all because the Greek language has rules that doesn’t allow for it.

The Church has carried over the Hebrew meaning through its Tradition and this influenced the Latin version, which reads:

Ave, gratia plena, Dominus tecum

Or literally: “Hello, grace full, [the] Lord with you [is].”

Latin can capture the Semitic logic that is against the rules in Greek (and in English too). The expression “full” in Latin and Hebrew/Aramaic means something like when we say a gas tank is “full” in American English. In this sense the tank has no room for anything else, be it gas or water or anything. It is full.

In Semitic language when a person is “full” of something it implies that the subject is without anything but what they are full with. “Full of grace” is equivalent to the Aramaic term, maliath taibootho, which means “grace-filled.” In English the logic we use is to say what Mary is WITHOUT, namely “sinless,” but in Aramaic the logic is the other way around as you say with the person is filled with, “full of grace.” Koine Greek is like English in this way.

Now the Church has asked that Bibles be translations of the original texts from the original tongues. When you translate from Greek you get what you would read from the Greek–not the Latin or the Aramaic when it comes to Luke, as Luke’s gospel was originally written in koine Greek.

In koine Greek there is a phrase “full of grace,” and it is not the same phrase used in Luke.

You pointed out Acts 6:8, where it is used about Stephen:

Stephanos de pleres charitos.

It also appears at John 1:14 where Christ, the word is described as “full of grace”

[H]o logos…pleres charitos.

“Pleres charitos” and “kecharitomene” are different, are they not? That is why they are translated as they are in the NAB. If you have issue with these phrases it is not the NAB’s fault, it is the Greek text you have issue with.

And it is the Greek text that is inspired, not any translation thereof.
 
I haven’t forgotten this thread, just been busy today. It looks like I’ve got some reading to do. Thanks all for your replies!
 
OK, I’ve done some reading. Please bear with me, I’m not a scholar. 🙂
Re the KJV in general, since virtually every Protestant accepts it, it’s good be able to explain Catholicism from it.
Ahhh…that’s something that didn’t cross my mind until after posting the question. That is a good point. The KJV has been a respected translation by many Protestants (even some Catholics it seems 😉 ). The great thing about computers is the ability to have software with the search function and side by side comparison of Catholic and Protestant translations. I don’t think I’ll be discussing Catholic doctrine with family/friends any time soon, but it’s there just in case. I’ll still want to use my Bible, the NAB when I can.
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po18guy:
The question is: did Paul forgive sins in the person of Christ (in persona Christi)? Yes. The NAB says “presence” of Christ, just as do many non-Catholic bibles.
Here’s some of what I got from Strong’s Dictionary.
G4383…

From G4314 …the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men’s) person, presence.

I don’t know much about translation, it definitely can’t be an easy job, but presence is mentioned there.

And thanks for your replies, DelsonJacobs. They were very helpful. Some things I thought I knew, and others…no idea! Especially about the Liturgy and why things get changed for it.
 
I’ve seen at least a few posts stating this, for example:
Here and Here

To me, it’ll still boils down to:
A) Trusting the Church’s approval of a translation. (I just can’t stand lately to see/hear Catholics say so much about the teaching authority of the Church then turn around and bash an approved translation and its notes. IMO it’s the same as being a Protestant and setting yourself up as higher authority on these things.)
OR
B) An anti-Catholic king.
Apart from translations the KJV you see today is an incomplete Bible because 7 Old Testament books are missing.
 
Apart from translations the KJV you see today is an incomplete Bible because 7 Old Testament books are missing.
You can find one that includes the Apocrypha if you look hard enough. 👍 The Bible app has it, and the Douay-Reims as well. 😃
 
You can find one that includes the Apocrypha if you look hard enough. 👍 The Bible app has it, and the Douay-Reims as well. 😃
They are not considered inspired books to be part of the canon which of course is an error.
 
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