Klinefelter's Syndrome and dating

[EnglishTeacher]

The man may know but how on earth would the woman know if she is waiting until marriage. I am still very baffled as to why this woman would suspect it in the first place

He may or may not know. From what I have read, I don’t believe the male organ is “diminished” drastically with Klinefelter’s, as a previous poster implied. But I am definitely no expert on the subject.

As to why she thinks so, this is what I was told: It is not any one thing, but a ton of little things that add up - For example, he has the classic body type for the syndrome (including height–he is very tall, even though the rest of his family is short), and he also has the personality and emotional issues that often go with it. She also doesn’t think he seems to have a physical attraction toward her in the same way that a man you are dating normally would. It sounds as though it is basically her intuition that something is a little bit “off,” and that Klinefelter’s would explain everything.

Of course, there’s no way to know for sure unless he has been tested for it. And of course, there are many other things that could account for her observations.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I’m personally of the opinion that intimacy should be discussed frankly between engaged couples rather than just expecting everything to work out that first time. It’s possible to do this without it being an occasion of sin. I agree that it’s probably not something the bride would think to ask about specifically, unless she works with people who have the condition herself or knows people who do (maybe if she works in medicine?), but it could still come up in such a discussion.

I agree with this, although (for what it’s worth), they are not engaged at this point. They have been together for about half a year or a little more, I think.

 

[Anglewannabe]

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As to why she thinks so, this is what I was told: It is not any one thing, but a ton of little things that add up - For example, he has the classic body type for the syndrome (including height–he is very tall, even though the rest of his family is short), and he also has the personality and emotional issues that often go with it. She also doesn’t think he seems to have a physical attraction toward her in the same way that a man you are dating normally would. It sounds as though it is basically her intuition that something is a little bit “off,” and that Klinefelter’s would explain everything.

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Until this post, I never heard of it. And the fact that she knew about it and the symptoms is a bit odd to me. I still think she should not ask. For something like that to be a deal breaker would be a heartache to a man. And even if he didn’t have it, the mere fact that she asks will put a strain on the relationship. If she can not live with the fact he may have it (which I still think is unfounded), she should just walk away. That is my opinion

 

[underacloud]

Even if he discovers he has this disorder, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is infertile. And it should be clear to both of them beforehand whether sexual drive will be a problem, even without having sex.

My take is that all couples getting married accept some risk that they may not be able to have biological children. If this couple does get married and experiences difficulty getting pregnant, I think that would be the appropriate time to get tests and talk treatment options.

The closest I think you could get to discussing this before marriage is asking whether he plans to have children and if he knows of any reason why he might not be able to.

I’m personally of the opinion that intimacy should be discussed frankly between engaged couples rather than just expecting everything to work out that first time. It’s possible to do this without it being an occasion of sin. I agree that it’s probably not something the bride would think to ask about specifically, unless she works with people who have the condition herself or knows people who do (maybe if she works in medicine?), but it could still come up in such a discussion.

I agree with these posts. These discussions are the appropriate way to approach this issue.

 

[Hockeygurl]

well, maybe I am a hopeless Catholic romantic who believes knowing you are doing God’s will is more than enough.

After all, the only way a Catholic ever should find out if they can consummate a marriage is to wait until the wedding night.

I suppose this is just one where we will have to agree to disagree

Maybe, however if he has had nocturnal emissions in adolescence… one can be reasonably safe to assume that it is possible. … Not that I would advocate bringing up the subject. One could always play the good ole’ drinking game “never have I ever”… had an orgasm in my sleep… and see what happens. But on a serious note, if his parts are that “concerning” to her… I would think that this would have been noted during a Doctors office visit.

 

[Cat]

That’s a pretty ruddy obvious symptom. I believe that such a condition would be pretty well impossible for any man to be oblivious to.

Yes, this is what I’m thinking.

Unless the man involved is elderly and born before modern medicine in the U.S., I would think that the syndrome would have been diagnosed back when he was a child or perhaps a teenager, and the man would know all about it and has lived with it all his life.

If a relationship advances to the point where romantic love appears to be a possibility, I would think that the man would inform his lady and describe frankly the difficulties. If he didn’t, this isn’t a very good basis for a marriage. After the wedding, when the woman realizes the difficulties of married life with a man suffering from Klinefelter’s, I’m guessing she will feel duped and probably the love she felt for this man would be very much compromised, not due to the Klinefelter’s, but due to being deceived.

Is it possible that the man was treated or is currently under treatment, and the sexual functions are normal, even if the appearance is still affected by the Klinefelters? Maybe that’s why he doesn’t talk to the OP about it–he knows that he is cured, even though his appearance is still not totally masculine.

Finally, I would advise the OP to keep in mind that there are quite a few men who are overweight and out of shape due to the U.S. lifestyle (too much food, sedentary job and activities), and who are also somewhat effeminate in their mannerism depending on how they were raised and what kind of job/hobbies they have. It may not be Klinefelter’s at all, but just “U.S. male syndrome.”

One more question–is it permissible for a Catholic woman to marry a man who is incapable of consummating the marriage? I’m pretty certain it’s OK, but I’m not positive. Anglewannabe, I’m guessing that this is one of the OP’s concerns. If it is permissible for her to marry this man, it is still a major decision to be with a husband who cannot have sex and cannot give the woman children.

 

[Cat]

Until this post, I never heard of it. And the fact that she knew about it and the symptoms is a bit odd to me. I still think she should not ask. For something like that to be a deal breaker would be a heartache to a man. And even if he didn’t have it, the mere fact that she asks will put a strain on the relationship. If she can not live with the fact he may have it (which I still think is unfounded), she should just walk away. That is my opinion

I don’t think it’s odd at all. Anyone who has taken a really good high school biology course with a unit on genetic disorders would have heard of this syndrome (and many others). If the OP has any kind of science background (e.g., any health or fitness field, even an office career), she would have learned about the various genetic disorders in her classes.

I’m also guessing that teachers learn about this and other genetic syndromes. It would certainly be helpful for them to know some of the conditions that their students may possess.

And occasionally women’s magazines, parenting magazines, and health/fitness magazines have articles about Klinefelter’s. With the emphasis on fitness and physique and on sports, especially children’s sports, Klinefelter’s is worth being informed about.

I totally disagree with you about a couple not knowing until the wedding night whether they can consummate the marriage. The couple should talk about this aspect of married life in detail and have a full understand of what will happen, at least physically. (No one can be totally prepared for all the emotions that accompany lovemaking.).

My husband and I visited a doctor together to learn more about what to expect. We talked about sex in our marriage preparation sessions with our pastor, and he gave us tapes to listen to together.

A couple who is planning to practice NFP had jolly well better understand sex, probably in more detail than more married couples! After all, they will be working together to practice NFP–it’s not just the “woman’s job.”

If either of the partners has experience rape, abuse, or some other sexual tragedy, or has been promiscuous and possible contracted an STD that affected the body, this needs to be discussed and worked through. The PTSD could affect the marriage in very negative ways, and both spouses need to be aware, sensitive, and educated about the best way to approach lovemaking in their marriage.

And if either of the partners has a physical condition that might affect sex, both of the partners need to know what they need to do to make sex happen and to make it enjoyable for both partners.

 

[pensmama87]

I don’t think it’s odd at all. Anyone who has taken a really good high school biology course with a unit on genetic disorders would have heard of this syndrome (and many others). If the OP has any kind of science background (e.g., any health or fitness field, even an office career), she would have learned about the various genetic disorders in her classes.

I’m also guessing that teachers learn about this and other genetic syndromes. It would certainly be helpful for them to know some of the conditions that their students may possess.

And occasionally women’s magazines, parenting magazines, and health/fitness magazines have articles about Klinefelter’s. With the emphasis on fitness and physique and on sports, especially children’s sports, Klinefelter’s is worth being informed about.

I totally disagree with you about a couple not knowing until the wedding night whether they can consummate the marriage. The couple should talk about this aspect of married life in detail and have a full understand of what will happen, at least physically. (No one can be totally prepared for all the emotions that accompany lovemaking.).

My husband and I visited a doctor together to learn more about what to expect. We talked about sex in our marriage preparation sessions with our pastor, and he gave us tapes to listen to together.

A couple who is planning to practice NFP had jolly well better understand sex, probably in more detail than more married couples! After all, they will be working together to practice NFP–it’s not just the “woman’s job.”

If either of the partners has experience rape, abuse, or some other sexual tragedy, or has been promiscuous and possible contracted an STD that affected the body, this needs to be discussed and worked through. The PTSD could affect the marriage in very negative ways, and both spouses need to be aware, sensitive, and educated about the best way to approach lovemaking in their marriage.

And if either of the partners has a physical condition that might affect sex, both of the partners need to know what they need to do to make sex happen and to make it enjoyable for both partners.

Yes, yes, yes.

I remember we were advised in pre-cana to have frank discussions about sex, not even considering that we might have medical issues that impacted that area of our lives, and not even about family planning. Obviously you can’t prepare for everything, but if one of you is thinking about sex as only a duty and something to get over with every now and then, and the other is eagerly anticipating it as frequently as possible, that’s something that really needs to be handled before the wedding night.

Frank communication about sex is just as important pre-marriage (and in marriage!) as frank communication about all other issues.

Now, since in the situation from the OP the couple is not engaged, I’m not sure now would be an appropriate time to broach the topic, even in a roundabout way. If the relationship is headed there, then maybe. If the boyfriend is aware I would hope he would bring it up during a discussion about these issues.

 

[Anglewannabe]

I totally disagree with you about a couple not knowing until the wedding night whether they can consummate the marriage. The couple should talk about this aspect of married life in detail and have a full understand of what will happen, at least physically. (No one can be totally prepared for all the emotions that accompany lovemaking.).
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It is like riding a bicycle. People can talk all the want, until you get on the bicycle, you will never know if you ride it. And since Catholic should not have premarital sex, no one really knows until the wedding night

I totally agree with talking about these things before marriage. However, I think it is one thing to express one’s desired and another to come out and ask 'Do you have ‘Klinefelter’s Syndrome?’

 

[Cat]

It is like riding a bicycle. People can talk all the want, until you get on the bicycle, you will never know if you ride it. And since Catholic should not have premarital sex, no one really knows until the wedding night

I totally agree with talking about these things before marriage. However, I think it is one thing to express one’s desired and another to come out and ask 'Do you have ‘Klinefelter’s Syndrome?’

I agree, that’s definitely an awkward conversation starter.

I really don’t have any idea how it can be gracefully brought up between a couple that is not engaged or thinking about engagement.

But if the couple starts talking romance/courtship/engagement, then I think the OP should simply come right out and say, “I’m concerned about something, and I’m embarrassed to bring it up, but it’s important to me, and I hope you’ll be willing to talk to me. I’m concerned about your health. You’re not an athlete, and I’m fine with that, but you aren’t in very good shape, either. Are you OK? I have to be honest–I’m looking forward to making love to my husband and God willing, conceiving babies, and I want to make sure that you feel the same way.”

What does everyone think? Would this work?

I think???.. that hopefully this kind of approach would work without too much offense, and the man would speak up and be honest. Maybe some of you have a more tactful way of saying it, but frankly, I think if the man gets upset and angry, then it would be good for the OP to re-think a romance.

In any marriage, both the husband and the wife will be in situations at times when they have to bring up something unpleasant about the other person’s health or physical condition. In our marriage, it was my husband’s snoring. It kept getting worse as he got older, and eventually, I had to tell him that he had to see a doctor and in the meantime, he had to sleep somewhere else because I wasn’t getting enough sleep and it was hard for me to stay awake and do good work in my job. That was tough.

Just this week, my husband spoke up about my inability to take anti-inflammatories for my arthritis. He challenged my doctor and stated that there was no real evidence based on testing that I was allergic to these meds. I thought he was crazy, but I went along with it and we made an appt. with my doc, my husband stated his case, and wonder of wonders, the doc agreed and set up a special test to determine if I can go back on anti-inflammatories. My husband is now my hero for speaking out and being my advocate! Maybe I’ll be able to walk again without pain!

 

[Conway97]

As the mother of a boy with klinefelters I think about how this should be handled often. Let me start by saying a man with KS can consummate a marriage. They may be infertile but that doesn’t mean they can’t perform. Next having KS does not mean they are intersex.

I think perhaps that this woman needs to reflect and decide does she love this man or does she love his ability to have children? There is a chance of having children through in vitro. There is always adoption.

Many people are very ignorant to what KS is. I am willing to educate you if necessary

 

[His_helpmeet]

well, maybe I am a hopeless Catholic romantic who believes knowing you are doing God’s will is more than enough.

After all, the only way a Catholic ever should find out if they can consummate a marriage is to wait until the wedding night.

I suppose this is just one where we will have to agree to disagree

Not necessarily. A woman should be having periodic examinations, which will include a bimanual (two-handed) exam. If she can fit two fingers without discomfort, and if she can insert a tampon, it’s likely she’ll be able to consummate the marriage.

As far as a man, at the risk of getting too graphic here, men normally wake up with an erection. (Not that they should be doing anything about it, but it’s normal response to testosterone levels naturally rising first thing in the morning.) If they’re not, it’s a pretty good indication that there is something physically wrong with them and they should be getting it checked out. Besides which, physical desire isn’t something that automatically “switches on” when you get married. It’s something that grows during the relationship (NOT to say that you should be having sex, just that appropriate, non-lustful sexual desire should grow during your relationship). Consequently, if there’s no sexual desire there, we can surmise that there may be a problem of some kind.

 

[His_helpmeet]

As the mother of a boy with klinefelters I think about how this should be handled often. Let me start by saying a man with KS can consummate a marriage. They may be infertile but that doesn’t mean they can’t perform. Next having KS does not mean they are intersex.

I think perhaps that this woman needs to reflect and decide does she love this man or does she love his ability to have children? There is a chance of having children through in vitro. There is always adoption.

Many people are very ignorant to what KS is. I am willing to educate you if necessary

The Church teaches that IVF and IUI are intrinsically immoral because they deny the child the right to be conceived as the result of a physical act of love between the couple. If a person knows that he/she is sterile and/or subfertile, and it is known before marriage, that fact should be fully disclosed to the other party. (Of note: I have polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and I’m subfertile. I was diagnosed a year before I married. DH chose to take me on anyway.) This will likely result in both parties having to grieve the loss of the idea of biological children. Adoption will resolve childlessness and is indeed a loving choice. (DH and I are thinking to adopt if we do not conceive within a year or two.) But it will not resolve the grief caused by the loss of being able to have a child created by the couple and God as a visible sign of their love.

 

[Hobbes42]

My question is-is the OP a doctor? Otherwise the OP may be basing this all off the internet.

There are a myriad of conditions that can cause the same symptoms. As asked before-would it be seen as ok if a man were to ask his fiance’ “Are you fertile? 'cause if you aren’t I’m not marrying you”. Add to this the fact that the condition that is being guessed at doesn’t even necessarily mean that the marital act is out of the question, this is all ludicrous.

How would anyone here feel if someone walked up to you and, based on something they read on teh interwebz asked a question like this… It’d be incredibly offensive. Not to mention really, really, really intrusive.

 

[Vico]

Posting this one for a friend . . .

If you are dating a man you suspect has Klinefelter’s syndrome, is there a sensitive, respectful way to broach the subject without embarrassing him or making him feel bad? If he does have it, he very well may not know it, since many men with the syndrome go through life undiagnosed. Men with Klinefelter’s are usually infertile and have low sex drives; so if they are considering marriage, their potential spouse should be informed about the condition. Plus, if he were to be diagnosed by a physician, he could get treatment in the form of testosterone therapy, which could help boost his self-confidence and improve his physical appearance.

(They have been dating for a while now, and apparently he has never mentioned anything about it.)

NIH states “Most males with 47,XYY syndrome have normal sexual development and are able to father children.”

“Most cases of 47,XYY syndrome are not inherited.”

“46,XY/47,XYY mosaicism is also not inherited.”

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/47xyy-syndrome

 

[Conway97]

No cases of klinefelters are inherited. It occurs during cell development. There is also no risk of passing it down

 

[MJJean]

My question is-is the OP a doctor? Otherwise the OP may be basing this all off the internet.

There are a myriad of conditions that can cause the same symptoms. As asked before-would it be seen as ok if a man were to ask his fiance’ “Are you fertile? 'cause if you aren’t I’m not marrying you”. Add to this the fact that the condition that is being guessed at doesn’t even necessarily mean that the marital act is out of the question, this is all ludicrous.

How would anyone here feel if someone walked up to you and, based on something they read on teh interwebz asked a question like this… It’d be incredibly offensive. Not to mention really, really, really intrusive.

I think NOT talking openly and honestly about sex and fertility before engagement and marriage is insane. Some people consider the inability to have sex and/or the inability to have children through natural means to be deal breakers. It’s best to know where you stand beforehand. Getting the pertinent facts is not intrusive when considering marriage and engagement.

I happen to have been born to a woman with a severe birth defect that science hasn’t figured out yet. They don’t know if it is genetic or environmental or some kind of fluke. It’s possible my siblings and I could produce a severely handicapped child. I was open about this when my husband and I were dating because it is a factor, like it or not. If he had said he couldn’t marry me under the circumstances I would have been very hurt, but I would have understood.

I am a woman with a high sex drive. While sex isn’t the end all-be all I wouldn’t be happy with a man who had a much lower sex drive than I do. It’d be a source of friction and resentment for me. It would slowly erode my self-esteem because I would always wonder if he was naturally like that or if it was some lack or failure on my part. I can imagine I’d feel less loved, too. As in, logic not withstanding, “If he loves me then why is this a problem? Shouldn’t his love for me override his natural low sex drive?” Not logical, but feelings often aren’t. I’d also probably drive both of us crazy trying to fix it. Which would likely make him feel resentment and as if all I cared about were sex. It wouldn’t be a good relationship for either of us.

When catholics talk about marriage there is an awful lot about giving and receiving of the whole person between spouses. Part of the whole person is sex and fertility. If there are problems in those areas it will eventually spill over into the rest of the relationship. So, I think these potential incompatibilities and issues should be openly discussed relatively early in a relationship so that flags can be identified and if there are deal breakers involved the couple can amicably split and find more suitable mates. Why waste each others time?

ETA: I have 3 healthy children, my sister has given birth to 4 healthy children and is raising 2 more besides, my older brother has a daughter with MS, but the docs say it’s probably not related to our mothers condition, and my younger brother has 3 healthy children. So, thank God, we’re ok so far. But we all did genetic counseling with each pregnancy and we were all warned it was possible that we could have a special needs child even with all the healthy kids we’ve created. Each and every time one of us is having a baby we go through months of worry and tests and extra doctor visits for monitoring before we know for sure if our baby will be ok. It’s hard on a relationship.

 

[Vico]

No cases of klinefelters are inherited. It occurs during cell development. There is also no risk of passing it down

In a 2002, Eskenazi, Wyrobek, Kidd, Lowe, More II, Weisiger, and Aylstock, research stated:“Inheritance of the extra X chromosome was paternal in 10 and maternal in 26 families. Fathers of paternal KS cases produced higher frequencies of XY sperm (P = 0.02) than fathers of maternal KS cases. After controlling for age, the major confounding variable, the difference between the two groups was no longer significant (P <= 0.2). Also there were no significant differences between the paternal origin groups for disomy X, Y, or 21. CONCLUSIONS: Men who fathered a child with a Klinefelter syndroms produced higher frequencies of XY sperm aneuploidy, which is explained in part, by both paternal age and parent of origin.”
Reference: Sperm aneuploidy in fathers of children with paternally and maternally inherited Klinefelter syndrome. Human Reproduction, Vol 17, No. 3, pp 576-583

 

[EnglishTeacher]

NIH states “Most males with 47,XYY syndrome have normal sexual development and are able to father children.”

“Most cases of 47,XYY syndrome are not inherited.”

“46,XY/47,XYY mosaicism is also not inherited.”

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/47xyy-syndrome

Klinefelter’s is XXY, not XYY. Different syndromes.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I think NOT talking openly and honestly about sex and fertility before engagement and marriage is insane. Some people consider the inability to have sex and/or the inability to have children through natural means to be deal breakers. It’s best to know where you stand beforehand. Getting the pertinent facts is not intrusive when considering marriage and engagement.

Yes, I agree.