Knanaya Catholics and Endogamy

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yawsep1569

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I have many Knanaya friends and love them as members of our church. I do not even have too much of a problem with their endogamy since many groups support it to some degrees. However, I do not see on what basis they can be recognized as being ecclesiastically distinct from other Syro-malabar christians. Even granting that they really are a separate genetic group (which I sincerely doubt), how can the Church discriminate a group that is purely motivated on genetic/ancestral grounds? Is not the Church open to all converts? But the Knanaya (Kottayam eparchy) is completely closed to any converts. If there is something I am missing, please let me know. Otherwise, I see their ecclesiastical existence as a blemish upon the Syro-malabar church 😦
 
Actually, I agree with you.

However (without knowing much more definitely) I think perhaps allowing this ecclesiastical arrangement may have been seen as a pastoral necessity to prevent further schism.

There certainly seems to be an element of phyletism in this.
 
There is no doubt that this was the only reason, but is it to be tolerated? There is absolutely no legitimate theological support for this. What saddens me the most is that it is completely ignored, when it really should not be. It shows a poor understanding of the reason for the Church’s very existence (not to mention the associations with castes in Hinduism). I wonder what Mar Paulose (St. Paul) would have said to those who discriminated based on lineage…
 
I’d never heard of this Knanaya Catholic group and had to look it up. So thank you for making me learn something!

Okay, so this group has a very odd, perhaps unique position. But there have always been a lot of unique customs, traditions, and permitted weird things in the Church. If you look around in Europe or the Middle East or anywhere else Catholicism has gone, you will find a lot of quirky stuff going on. And if something quirky has gone on for more than three or four centuries with Church permission, it’s usually going to be regarded as something that has God’s permission and shouldn’t be changed from outside, unless things actually get heretical or openly scandalous. The Church has gone to a lot of trouble to preserve things like the Mozarabic Rite, even though it only exists in one city in all the world, just because it is old and sacred, and thus worthy to be kept up.

The other factor is that a lot of weird things can be allowed by the Church, simply in order to maintain unity and fight heresy and schism. Unity in big things can be maintained better if there’s a certain amount of diversity in smaller matters. (Even if those matters are pretty big.)

It sounds to me like these Knanaya folks are kind of being treated like a sort of lay confraternity with a membership that’s hereditary. (And that sort of thing has existed in certain places in Europe, at certain times, often fruitfully.) As long as people are allowed to leave these sorts of situations if they want to, the Church doesn’t necessarily have a problem with it.

If you went to certain old towns in Europe, you might find a neighborhood that has a confraternity chapel (instead of a parish church) with members that are all from families that have lived there for centuries, and who never sell their nearby houses to anybody who’s not related. That’s a bit clannish but not forbidden. It’s not necessarily snobbish or “caste-oriented,” because you often find that sort of situation in neighborhoods of poor people.

Obviously in India, this hits a lot of hot buttons. But if it’s not any skin off your own personal nose, it’s probably not a problem. (If you want to marry somebody Knanaya, I can see where staying unconcerned would be a lot harder!)

If the Knanaya Catholics never evangelize at all, that would be a bit problematic. If they just direct people they evangelize to other Syro-Malabar parishes, maybe that’s okay if the bishops of your Rite don’t have a problem with it.

In general, I’d go with what your bishop/eparch/patriarch says. It’s a problem that’s way above my level of responsibility and expertise.
 
I would appreciate responses from individuals who already have some basic understanding of this situation.
 
yawsep1569 said:
I would appreciate responses from individuals who already have some basic understanding of this situation.
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They are closed to genetic outsiders! There are exceptions historically speaking. They are not just catholics, there are other non catholic Knanaya groups, even jewish groups that are closed off. Let’s just say they don’t like to mix.
 
couponfit said:
They are closed to genetic outsiders! There are exceptions historically speaking. They are not just catholics, there are other non catholic Knanaya groups, even jewish groups that are closed off. Let’s just say they don’t like to mix.
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Well, that’s not an unrealistic observation …

The problem is according to the report of the OP, one cannot join the parish/diocese if one is not connected through blood. They have their own bishops and priests. If so it is an exclusive club supported by the church.

Naturally, I would be delighted to learn that this is not true. 🙂

Now people can discriminate like that if they want to, without having a special church structure devoted only to them. If they want to be unwelcoming to newcomers, that is their business as individuals, and only God judges so I will let it go at that.

The church though, should not have an official policy in support of this attitude. Every parish and mission should be open and welcoming to any and all inquirers, regardless of social station, education level or ethnic origin.

I know we as individuals fail at this all too often, and it troubles and shames me, it is like soiling the seamless garment of Christ. 😦
 
Thank you for sharing my sentiments, Hesychios. Alas, things are even worse then you think. As I have mentioned, Knanaya is a category that is purely racial/genetic/whatever you want to call. Thus, there are Knanya Catholic (Syro- malabar and malankara), Knanaya Orthodox (Indian and Syrian), Knanaya Mar Thoma (an Anglican church) and other Knanaya protestants (pentecostals, csi, etc.). What I find most sacrilegious is that often it is the lineage/racial purity of a potential spouse’s blood that is more important than his/her faith. Thus, many Knanaya Catholics have settled for Knanaya Protestants in arranging their marriages and I am confident this is the same mindset among the Orthodox and other groups. What an outrage, but not to anyone that I can see. Our blood means nothing, because Mishiha’s blood has saved us! Our church is in need of much prayers, so please keep Her in your hearts, friends. Mar Thoma, intercede for us, your children, for whom you spent your blood. Mar Paulose, we pray for a greater understanding of our salvation. Maran Isho Mishiha, forgive us in your great mercy!
 
I don’t believe that everything written here is entirely accurate. As far as I know, one does not have to be ethnically Knanaya to register as a member of a parish within the Archeparchy of Kottayam (the Knanaya province within the Syro-Malabar Church), and members of any rite are definitely welcome to attend Qurbana and receive the Eucharist in their parishes. Members of the Archeparchy are certainly very active in missionary work, in India and abroad, for the Syro-Malabar Church, the Syro-Malankara Church and the Roman Church. The restrictions on intermarriage are a local custom rather than a religious stricture, and priests will agree to perform mixed marriages for Knanaya and outsiders, although it is rare that a member of the community should choose to marry outside.

The point that families often care more about Knanaya identity than Catholic identity when evaluating potential spouses is true, but this is not a rule of the church and it is not an idea that is propagated by the clergy.
 
I am a Knanaya Catholic myself, and recently in 2012 the Knanaya Catholics have started an independence movement away from the Syro Malabar Church. The Knanaya feel they are not receiving anything they ask for from the Syro Malabar Church.

We have been trying to get one, just one more diocese but the Syro Malabar church denied us of that. We asked for a Diocese in North America , because our people would like to be under a Knanaya Bishop instead of Mar Angadiath, but they denied us of that as well.

When we sent Rome a letter about a diocese in North America, for a Knanaya bishop to govern his people , they denied us of that, even though in 1911, The Syro Malabar Catholics in Kerala pleaded to Rome to remove Mar Mathai Makil (A Knanaya Bishop) who Rome appointed to a Syro Malabar Diocese. Rome eventually removed Mar Mathai Makil just because he was a Knanaya and the Syro Malabar people did not want a Knanaya running there diocese … Then Mar Mathai Makil petitioned Rome for a diocese just for his people, and Rome erected The Knanaya Catholic Diocese of Kottayam.

What sparked this independence movement was when Mar Angadiath ordered the Knanaya Parishes in North America to give membership to Non-Knananites. See the Knanayas allow non Knanites to there parishes for quarbana but do not allow them membership to the parish. For this you must be born of two Knanaya parents(The Archbishop of Kottayam has made this quite clear).

We feel we have been behind the Syro Malabar Church for too long. To give an example it is like a minority in a country. When Mar Angadiath forced the order for Knanaya mixed churches in North America, it is a way to exterminate Knanaya Catholics. Eventually we feel this order will be forced upon Kerala Knanayas which will lead to the extinction of Knanaya. We have helped and supported the growth of the Syro Malabar Church, But they have not once, supported the growth of The Knanaya Arch Diocese of Kottayam.

Now KCC(Knanaya Catholic Congress) has told each Knanaya Catholic Parish around the world to sign a petetion in order for the Knanites to recieve a Sui Juris, Eastern Catholic church separate from the Syro Malabar Church our bishop approved and the message will be dispatched around the globe . This petition will eventually be sent to Syro Malabar Major Archbishop Mar George Allencherry in June, who will then send it to Rome.
 
fijiq48 said:
I am a Knanaya Catholic myself, and recently in 2012 the Knanaya Catholics have started an independence movement away from the Syro Malabar Church. The Knanaya feel they are not receiving anything they ask for from the Syro Malabar Church.

We have been trying to get one, just one more diocese but the Syro Malabar church denied us of that. We asked for a Diocese in North America , because our people would like to be under a Knanaya Bishop instead of Mar Angadiath, but they denied us of that as well.

When we sent Rome a letter about a diocese in North America, for a Knanaya bishop to govern his people , they denied us of that, even though in 1911, The Syro Malabar Catholics in Kerala pleaded to Rome to remove Mar Mathai Makil (A Knanaya Bishop) who Rome appointed to a Syro Malabar Diocese. Rome eventually removed Mar Mathai Makil just because he was a Knanaya and the Syro Malabar people did not want a Knanaya running there diocese … Then Mar Mathai Makil petitioned Rome for a diocese just for his people, and Rome erected The Knanaya Catholic Diocese of Kottayam.

What sparked this independence movement was when Mar Angadiath ordered the Knanaya Parishes in North America to give membership to Non-Knananites. See the Knanayas allow non Knanites to there parishes for quarbana but do not allow them membership to the parish. For this you must be born of two Knanaya parents(The Archbishop of Kottayam has made this quite clear).

We feel we have been behind the Syro Malabar Church for too long. To give an example it is like a minority in a country. When Mar Angadiath forced the order for Knanaya mixed churches in North America, it is a way to exterminate Knanaya Catholics. Eventually we feel this order will be forced upon Kerala Knanayas which will lead to the extinction of Knanaya. We have helped and supported the growth of the Syro Malabar Church, But they have not once, supported the growth of The Knanaya Arch Diocese of Kottayam.

Now KCC(Knanaya Catholic Congress) has told each Knanaya Catholic Parish around the world to sign a petetion in order for the Knanites to recieve a Sui Juris, Eastern Catholic church separate from the Syro Malabar Church our bishop approved and the message will be dispatched around the globe . This petition will eventually be sent to Syro Malabar Major Archbishop Mar George Allencherry in June, who will then send it to Rome.
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Having a Church sui iuris is one solution. Something similar happened in the USA in 1924 when the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church was split into two jurisdictions, that is the Ruthenian and Ukrainian each with their own eparch. There were too many differences and it was causing conflict, particularly due to political pressure from Hungary for the Ruthenian and from Poland for the Ukrainian. That would allow you to preserve your traditions and discipline and have your own canon law.
 
Vico said:
Having a Church sui iuris is one solution. Something similar happened in the USA in 1924 when the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church was split into two jurisdictions, that is the Ruthenian and Ukrainian each with their own eparch. There were too many differences and it was causing conflict, particularly due to political pressure from Hungary for the Ruthenian and from Poland for the Ukrainian. That would allow you to preserve your traditions and discipline and have your own canon law.
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It is not permitted, however, to have a sui juris church that is closed to outsiders. All the churches are to have equal rights and responsibilities for evangelizing the world, and none may engage in any type of racial or ethnic discrimination. This is likely why the Vatican has resisted giving the Knanaya archdiocese more autonomy.
 
Hesychios said:
Well, that’s not an unrealistic observation …

The problem is according to the report of the OP, one cannot join the parish/diocese if one is not connected through blood. They have their own bishops and priests. If so it is an exclusive club supported by the church.

Naturally, I would be delighted to learn that this is not true. 🙂

Now people can discriminate like that if they want to, without having a special church structure devoted only to them. If they want to be unwelcoming to newcomers, that is their business as individuals, and only God judges so I will let it go at that.

The church though, should not have an official policy in support of this attitude. Every parish and mission should be open and welcoming to any and all inquirers, regardless of social station, education level or ethnic origin.

I know we as individuals fail at this all too often, and it troubles and shames me, it is like soiling the seamless garment of Christ. 😦
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They sound like some of our own Greek-Catholic parishes, if you ask me . . . Plus, there are many “ethnic” parishes that are effectively closed off to “outsiders” because of the “Leenqueej” problem and that the ethnicity of the parish is prominently displayed on everyone’s sleeve. While not genetically closed off, this is what effectively occurs.

And what about the foundation of the Polish National Catholic Church? Some have said that Protestantism could, in part, be explained by the fact that Catholicism in those centuries was heavily influenced by Italian/Spanish Catholicism that was culturally foreign to the Christianity of northern Europe.

Alex
 
Really all the Knanayas want is to keep there traditions and practices, we really don’t want to break away from the Syro Malabar church but if they do not respect our rights and give us no other choice it may lead to separation. With Syro Malabar Bishop Mar Angadiaths order how can endogamy be preserved? He has no right over the Knanayas in North America. And why does Rome ignore us? They are seeing the same problem with us that they saw with Syro Malabar church when a Knanaya Bishop was appointed to head there diocese. Its a common case of Majority vs Minority…

We feel Rome or The Syro Malabar Church has no right to deny us of a diocese in North America. When we sent the letter to Rome in the 1980’s for a diocese in North America, the Oreintal Council for Eastern Catholics denied us because they said endogamy is ancient practice which should not be brought to North America and that no endogamous dioceses will be allowed in North America, but the problem we see with that is that in 1911 when our diocese was erected , Mar Papa St.Pius X in his papal bull informed us that we have full endogamous practices throughout the entire territory of the Syro Malabar Church and that any Knanaya parish in the territory of the Syro Malabar Church will be under the Knanaya Kottayam Archbishop and not the local diocese. It seems that Rome and the Syro Malabar Church seemed to have “skipped” over this statement because the Knanaya Catholics in North America are under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar diocese … How is it possible that the head bishop of the oreintal council can ignore a popes papal bull?..

What the Knanayas in North America have concluded is that the Syro Malabar Church keeps us under there St.Thomas Diocese in Chicago just to make money off our parishes and to build there Syro Malabar Empire in North America.
 
fijiq48 said:
Really all the Knanayas want is to keep there traditions and practices, we really don’t want to break away from the Syro Malabar church but if they do not respect our rights and give us no other choice it may lead to separation. With Syro Malabar Bishop Mar Angadiaths order how can endogamy be preserved? He has no right over the Knanayas in North America. And why does Rome ignore us? They are seeing the same problem with us that they saw with Syro Malabar church when a Knanaya Bishop was appointed to head there diocese. Its a common case of Majority vs Minority…

We feel Rome or The Syro Malabar Church has no right to deny us of a diocese in North America. When we sent the letter to Rome in the 1980’s for a diocese in North America, the Oreintal Council for Eastern Catholics denied us because they said endogamy is ancient practice which should not be brought to North America and that no endogamous dioceses will be allowed in North America, but the problem we see with that is that in 1911 when our diocese was erected , Mar Papa St.Pius X in his papal bull informed us that we have full endogamous practices throughout the entire territory of the Syro Malabar Church and that any Knanaya parish in the territory of the Syro Malabar Church will be under the Knanaya Kottayam Archbishop and not the local diocese. It seems that Rome and the Syro Malabar Church seemed to have “skipped” over this statement because the Knanaya Catholics in North America are under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar diocese … How is it possible that the head bishop of the oreintal council can ignore a popes papal bull?..

What the Knanayas in North America have concluded is that the Syro Malabar Church keeps us under there St.Thomas Diocese in Chicago just to make money off our parishes and to build there Syro Malabar Empire in North America.
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The problem is that insisting on strict endogamy is objectively anti-Catholic. You can maintain your traditions as much as you want insofar as they don’t conflict with Catholic doctrine, but if you insist on preventing others from joining your church or refusing to celebrate mixed marriages, than you are no longer Catholic.
 
DhuAlQarnayn said:
It is not permitted, however, to have a sui juris church that is closed to outsiders. All the churches are to have equal rights and responsibilities for evangelizing the world, and none may engage in any type of racial or ethnic discrimination. This is likely why the Vatican has resisted giving the Knanaya archdiocese more autonomy.
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I see, so the Vatican would likely not approve of endogamy then if they had their own sui iuris Church. The Holy See always approves or disapproves any canon laws for the sui iuris Churches.
 
But the Knanaya are not discriminating anyone racially or ethnically. We love all of our Christian neighbors. The reason we are endogamist is to preserve our ancient Jewish customs not to show some sort of supremacy . When the Knanayas arrived in Kerala in 345 A.D it is said that they were very early Christians who still had many Jewish customs, the most important being endogamy and other wedding customs. Our forefathers have preserved endogamy and the traditions of the Knanaya Church for 1700 years, why would we break that line?

Our history tells us that we came to India for either one of two reasons. One being persecution of Christians under the Romans and so we fled from Syria to Kerala and the other reason being Uraha Mar Yosef the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch, 72 families, preists, deacons, and there leader Knai Thoma(A prominent merchant who did trade between Kerala and Syira) , were sent on a misson to strengthen the failing ancient church of Mar Thoma in India. This is the reason why many believe, the Mar Thoma Christians use Syriac Orthodox Liturgy. So really after Mar Thoma, The Knanayas were the other missionaries of India then after them there was of course European missionary work.
 
fijiq48 said:
But the Knanaya are not discriminating anyone racially or ethnically. We love all of our Christian neighbors. The reason we are endogamist is to preserve our ancient Jewish customs not to show some sort of supremacy . When the Knanayas arrived in Kerala in 345 A.D it is said that they were very early Christians who still had many Jewish customs, the most important being endogamy and other wedding customs. Our forefathers have preserved endogamy and the traditions of the Knanaya Church for 1700 years, why would we break that line?

…
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Once it was required to be Catholic to marry another Catholic, and it is still the norm, but permission or dispensation may be obtained for other Christian or non-Christian marriages. I suppose that is a kind of endogamy. The Catholic canon law does, as a norm, allow interecclesial marriage between Catholics of any of the 23 sui iuris Churches. Also there can be no conditions in the eastern Catholic churches:

CCEO Canon 826
Marriage based on a condition cannot be validly celebrated.
 
Well im not arguing with ya, but our priests did research on the topic of “Sui Juris” and they said we have a very good chance of becoming a Sui Juris Church. We have as much right to that as the Syro Malabar Church does.

Knanaya’s are the ones that brought the bible and the Syriac Liturgies to Kerala, as it was in the past we should restore the actual Knanaya Church not the single diocese for more than 100,000 people that the Syro Malabar church has given us…
 
I wish you were right DhuAlQarnayn, but it does not appear to be the case. I am somewhat shocked by the outrageous claims made by fijiq48. You make a very serious accusation about the case of Mar Makil. I would be very grateful if you could provide some evidence or credible source that he was removed from his position because he was Knanaya. From my humble knowledge, I only thought he was transferred because he wanted to have his own diocese for Knanaya people. Furthermore, your words about Mar Angadiath are scandalous. He has done nothing but try to support everyone in his diocese, though many paint him as a villain. He is one of the most humble men I know. He has allowed numerous Knanaya parishes to be established and staffed by Knanaya priests. They only answer to him indirectly because he has placed them under a Knanaya Vicar-General. This is much more than I think is appropriate. If he has demanded that endogamy end, then good for him! There is not a single shred of evidence to show that the current Knanaya are the descendants of Knai Thomman. And what is this historic Knanaya church you speak of? There has never been any such thing recorded in history! All Christians who were east of the Roman Empire belonged to the Church of the East, the Patriarchate based in current-day Iraq. The Syriac Orthodox bishop has nothing to do with India. If you say you are descended from members of that church, please stop calling yourself St. Thomas Christians. That is a complete contradiction. Mar Thoma Christians have nothing to do with Knanaya. They broke away from the Orthodox Church, who were formed when they refused to stay under Rome. This is basic history. If you would like to continue endogamy, I sincerely hope the Catholic Church will not subsidize it because it is completely against fundamental Christian beliefs.
 
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