Knanaya Catholics and Endogamy

[Hesychios]

Are the ‘Syro-malabar’, ‘Syro-malankara’ or for that matter the Armenians any different?

They would not be any different if they deliberately excluded other peoples from membership based upon racial or ethnic or cultural considerations.

As far as I know they do not. They must be open to others, and they still have a responsibility to spread the faith.

This is not to say that some layperson-members will not be bigoted/prejudiced or even hateful enough to discourage visitors and newcomers. Sometimes this happens because they don’t want their daughters meeting these ‘strange’ persons, they want the parish to be an ethnic club. That is always wrong.

However, as wrong as it is, one does not usually see the attitudes reinforced by the clergy and hierarchy in churches like you mentioned, even if they privately still share some of these same attitudes they realize it is an unchristian position to take.

In fact, in some places the clergy are the first to realize that such attitudes, if left unchecked, could mean the parish will eventually collapse.

This may not be so in the core area, the traditional homeland of the people, but in areas of dispersal the general trend is for the ethnic minority to assimilate, and the parish will die.

Even the Knanaya will see this process as they migrate and settle around the world. Every generation will see some children marry outside. It can only mean heartache and disappointment if they are not welcoming to these mixed ethnic families. A parish of 200 families eventually has just 60 families, then 40, then 12 …

Any parish and any church that does not take upon itself the Great Commission while it is strong and has the means to do so deserves it’s fate.

 

[Hesychios]

I hope the time will come when all prefixes like ‘Latin’, ‘Syrian’ and ‘Knanaya’ will vanish and there will be just ONE HOLY CATHOLIC & APOSTOLIC CHURCH

I find this interesting as a comment.

It is not wrong actually, but these prefixes denote the liturgical tradition.

One does not have to be a Syrian in order to worship in the liturgical tradition which developed among the Syrians, any more than one has to be a Latin (or Roman) to worship in the Latin tradition.

I usually worship in the Russian tradition, but in fact I am not a Russian at all. I am very happy with it and comfortable. There are many others like me.

Of course, there was a time when diversity was not as appreciated as today. Many people thought that uniformity in religious practice was important. An outward sign of an ineward unity. For this reason the Byzantine and Roman liturgical and spiritual traditions were imposed on others, and they spread widely. But this was never really necessary.

Today, we are (in general) much more tolerant of local variations in liturgy and the many diverse spiritual traditions. I think this is good. It is unity in faith which we desire more than anything else, unity of faith is also the most difficult to maintain and requires more energy and vigilance.

 

[Vico]

To Vico,

Yes, i do hope one day we achieve our goal of a Sui Juris. And yes marriage will be the biggest problem. Also missionary work, The Knanaya Diocese at the time does do missionary work but all converts are sent directly to Syro Malabar Diocese. If a Knanaya Sui Juris is erected how can they do missionary work with all endogamous diocese? My guess is that some sort of deal will be made where all converts are placed under the latin church.

To Yawsep,

For some reason whenever Knanayas and Syro Malabar are forced to share parishes or diocese problems occur. Like I’ve stated there was the issue with Mar Makil but then in the 1980’s when our people first started moving to the U.S there was no separate diocese, churches, or priests for us here.

Then the Knanayas requested that our Metran at the time Mar Kunnacherry send over a Knanaya priest to hold masses in the U.S , and so Mar Kunnacherry did. Soon after the priest was sent, a Knanaya Mission was created. This mission was shared by both The Knanayas and the Syro Malabar though it was officially a Knanaya Mission. This only lasted for a short time because once the Knanaya Mission was set up the Syros requested that a mission for them be set up as well and so it was and it soon become the St.Thomas Diocese.

Another problem was recorded in the 1600’s. When the Portuguese landed in Kerala the Latin Church took control of all St.Thomas Christians, until of course the Koonan Kurishu Sathyam took place and the Mar Thoma Christians were split into either Syro Malabar Catholics or Jacobite Orthodox. During the years of Latin rule over the Syro Malabar Catholics it was recorded that when Bishop Menezes (Latin Bishop of Kerala in 1600) tried to force Knanayas and Syro Malabars to share churches, blood shed occurred. Hopefully in the near future Knanayas and Syro Malabars will have an even better relationship then that of what we have today.

I believe that the concept that has been used is that when Knanaya members marry non Knanaya members, their jurisdictions do not change.

Now this is really not in accord with the default eastern canon law (CCEO) so would require indult or to be included in the particular law of the Church sui iuris. CCEO gives the ways to become enrolled in a Church sui iuris:

1. via infant baptism with a Catholic father, (or single mother, or both Catholics when in agreement),
2. via matrimony, by declaration anytime desired, and
3. of children under 14 when the parent(s) change, but this is not requried, and
4. adult baptism,
5. by approval of the Apostolic See.

So it may be possible to have particular canons, if the Holy See approves of it, to exclude enrollment in cases 1 (by agreement case), 2, 3, and 4. That would keep the Knanaya parent and their children in the hypothetical Knanaya sui iuris and the rest in another.

So to maintain

 

[fijiq48]

To Vico-

What happens when a Knanaya marries a non Knanaya, is that the Archbishop of Kottayam gives that said Knanaya, permission to leave Kottayam Archdiocese and join the diocese of the non Knanaya spouse. Even if a Knanaya marries lets say a Marthoma, they must leave Kottayam Archdiocese and either join another Syro Malabar diocese or The Marthoma Church.

Knanayas can intermarry among all there people which means, a Knanaya Catholic can marry a Knanaya Jacobite with no problem.

 

[Hesychios]

To Vico-

What happens when a Knanaya marries a non Knanaya, is that the Archbishop of Kottayam gives that said Knanaya, permission to leave Kottayam Archdiocese and join the diocese of the non Knanaya spouse. Even if a Knanaya marries lets say a Marthoma, they must leave Kottayam Archdiocese and either join another Syro Malabar diocese or The Marthoma Church.
**
Knanayas can intermarry among all there people which means, a Knanaya Catholic can marry a Knanaya Jacobite with no problem.**

Does the Archbishop send the couple off to the Knanaya Jacobites?

 

[Vico]

To Vico-

What happens when a Knanaya marries a non Knanaya, is that the Archbishop of Kottayam gives that said Knanaya, permission to leave Kottayam Archdiocese and join the diocese of the non Knanaya spouse. Even if a Knanaya marries lets say a Marthoma, they must leave Kottayam Archdiocese and either join another Syro Malabar diocese or The Marthoma Church.

Knanayas can intermarry among all there people which means, a Knanaya Catholic can marry a Knanaya Jacobite with no problem.

Thank you. I was thinking that both the Knanaya and non-Knanaya kept their original jurisdictions. I see that it is the Knanaya must change jurisdiction.

 

[fijiq48]

To Hesychios-

When a Knanaya Catholic marries a Knanaya Jacobite or vice versa, no change is made in jurisdiction. The couple can attend whichever quarbana they choose. The Knanaya Catholic would still have membership in the Knanaya catholic diocese and the Knanaya Jacobite in the Knanaya Jacobite diocese. The couple pretty much gains membership to both Knanaya diocese.

To give an example my uncle, is a Knanaya Catholic and he married my aunt who is a Knanaya Jacobite , they attend both quarbanas without any problems. But because of Kerala’s patriarchal society they mostly go to The Knanaya Catholic Church. Their children my cousins, were baptized in the Knanaya Catholic Church but they still refer to themselves as Knanaya Catholic and Knanaya Jacobite.

And just to make this clear - **There are only two official Knanaya Churches, Knanaya Jacobite and Knanaya Catholic( Knanaya catholics predominately follow Syro Malabar liturgy but within Kottayam Archdiocese we have a small portion who call them selves Syro Malankara Knanayas, they have about 20 parishes under Kottayam Diocese but follow the Syro Malankara Catholic Rite . **, Being a Knanaya catholic i have never met a Knanaya Jew, Knanaya Marthoma, etc.

 

[mardukm]

To Hesychios-

When a Knanaya Catholic marries a Knanaya Jacobite or vice versa, no change is made in jurisdiction. The couple can attend whichever quarbana they choose. The Knanaya Catholic would still have membership in the Knanaya catholic diocese and the Knanaya Jacobite in the Knanaya Jacobite diocese. The couple pretty much gains membership to both Knanaya diocese.

To give an example my uncle, is a Knanaya Catholic and he married my aunt who is a Knanaya Jacobite , they attend both quarbanas without any problems. But because of Kerala’s patriarchal society they mostly go to The Knanaya Catholic Church. Their children my cousins, were baptized in the Knanaya Catholic Church but they still refer to themselves as Knanaya Catholic and Knanaya Jacobite.

And just to make this clear - **There are only two official Knanaya Churches, Knanaya Jacobite and Knanaya Catholic( Knanaya catholics predominately follow Syro Malabar liturgy but within Kottayam Archdiocese we have a small portion who call them selves Syro Malankara Knanayas, they have about 20 parishes under Kottayam Diocese but follow the Syro Malankara Catholic Rite . **, Being a Knanaya catholic i have never met a Knanaya Jew, Knanaya Marthoma, etc.

I know that the Syriac Orthodox and Catholic Churches have official norms for intermarriage that do not require “conversion.”

When you say “Knanaya Jacobite,” are you referring to a Knanaya who is a member of the Assyrian/Church of the East, or a Knanaya who is a member of the Syriac Orthodox Church?

I’ve always wondered if there are any official norms for intermarriage between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Catholic Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Vico]

fijiq48,

There are two eastern Catholic churches of those shown below: Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara. Does your use of Jacobite mean the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church or something else?

 

[DhuAlQarnayn]

Jacobite means the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, in the Oriental Orthodox communion. They have an independent Knanaya diocese just like the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church. I don’t know if there are many (any?) Knanaya who belong to the Church of the East.

As for intermarriages with Orthodox (whether Eastern or Oriental) and Assyrian (Church of the East) Christians, they’re very common and uncontroversial. Traditionally, they will be held in the Orthodox church. Interestingly, a Catholic who marries in an Orthodox church is presumed to be validly married even if he or she obtains no dispensation of form prior to the wedding.

 

[mardukm]

As for intermarriages with Orthodox (whether Eastern or Oriental) and Assyrian (Church of the East) Christians, they’re very common and uncontroversial. Traditionally, they will be held in the Orthodox church. Interestingly, a Catholic who marries in an Orthodox church is presumed to be validly married even if he or she obtains no dispensation of form prior to the wedding.

The Syriac Orthodox Church of the Oriental Orthodox communion and the Catholic Church have an official,formal Agreement on intermarriage. I don’t think dispensation of form would be required for a Catholic marrying someone in the Syriac Orthodox Church since it is already a given due to the formal Agreement between the two Churches.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[fijiq48]

To Vico,

I mean The Jacobite Syrian Church, they are the ancient Oreiental Orthodox Church of Kerala. After the Synod of Diamper, the St.Thomas Christians split into either Syro Malabar Catholic or Jacobite Orthodox (Yachoba pronounced in Kerala). For the longest time these were the only two groups but then of course later splits occurred like with the Marthoma Church and The Syro Malankara Catholic Church. Some will argue that it was the Syro Malabar Church and The Malankara Orthodox church but really that and Jacobite are the exact same thing, now correct me if im wrong but the main difference between these two is leadership. I think Jacobites give main leadership to the Syriac Catholicos and the Malankara Orthodox give main leadership to the Catholicos of India. I personally feel like there was no point in the split between these two, they are the same people and should resolve there differences. Also correct me if I’m wrong but if you’ll look at the chart you’ll see a group called Malabar Independent Syrian Church, I think they also follow West Syrian liturgy. Personally i think the Malabar Independant Church, Malankara Orthodox Church, and the Jacobite Church should rejoin to form a united Jacobite Syriac Church.

But yes the Knanaya have an Archdiocese under the Syro Malabar Church and the Jacobite Syrian Church. That is why i said these two are the only official Knanaya Churches. But there are a few Knanayas under the Syro Malankara Church, they were too few in number to really need there own separate diocese under the Syro Malankara Catholic Church so instead they are under Kottayam Arch Diocese even thought its a Syro Malabar Diocese.

DhuAl- no there are no Knanayas under the Church of the East.

(Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong , I don’t have full understanding of the Orthodox Churches in Kerala)

 

[mardukm]

Dear fijiq,

Thank you for the clarification on what you meant by “Jacobite.”

I think Jacobites give main leadership to the Syriac Catholicos and the Malankara Orthodox give main leadership to the Catholicos of India. I personally feel like there was no point in the split between these two, they are the same people and should resolve there differences.

You are correct that the main difference between the Syriac Orthodox and Malankara Orthodox is leadership. They split because the Malankara Orthodox wanted independence from the Syriac Orthodox. Initially, accusations of the heresy of phyletism were flying around. But the Malankara Orthodox are part of the Oriental Orthodox communion. For the sake of others who may not understand, the Syriac Tradition, like the Latin Catholic Tradition, gives a theological importance to the matter of the existence of a head bishop, as carrying on the Petrine headship established by Christ himself. This is why the Catholic Church and all the Churches of the Syrian Tradition (Syriac Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox, Church of the East) have their own unique colloquy that meet periodically. They have this teaching in common that unites them more closely than other Churches.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Vico]

…

Thank you, that clears the issue for me. Actually I was suprised by “The couple pretty much gains membership to both Knanaya diocese.” But I see that there is no canonical enrollment because one is Oriental Orthodox and the other Catholic.

 

[yawsep1569]

Fijiq48,

I have met Knanaya CSI, Knanaya Pentecostals, and Knanaya Mar Thoma (protestant churches), some of whom have married Knanaya Catholics. Unfortunately, there is nothing about being Knanaya that guarantees belonging to an apostolic Church (one with sacraments). Furthermore, just as you seem to think the issue of leadership does not warrant the creation of a new church, I do not believe that one’s birth family does so either. If the Knanaya are to be another separate church, they would have to support the creation of another church for all those Knanaya who have married non-Knanaya, preserving all the Knanaya customs & traditions and pass it on to their children, who of course cannot be considered Knanaya.

Peace and blessings,
yawsep

 

[fijiq48]

To Yawsep-

Oh interesting, but yes like I’ve said the only two official Knanaya Churches are Jacobite and Catholic, the others are very few in number.And no if a Knanaya Sui Juris was created there would have to be no separate church for those who married out. Those who married out fully understood the consequences of marrying non Knanaya and that was a choice they made. Those who married out of the church just have to understand they are no longer Knanaya, Kottayam Archbishop has made this very very clear. This is stated in the official membership documents that Rome has approved in the creation of Kottayam Diocese. If a Knanaya marries a non Knanaya you are automatically transferred to the diocese of the non Knanaya spouse or you can choose to join a local Syro Malabar/Jacobite diocese , depending on what church you belong to.

 

[yawsep1569]

I do not understand what you mean by Knanaya Churches. It makes about as much sense as referring to a Panicker Church or a Nair Church. We already agreed that Knanaya is not an ecclesiastical identity so saying such things creates confusion. Also, some other posters have supported the creation of a separate church exclusively for Knanayas. I would like to wonder how they would reconcile the existence of people who have the exact same traditions (because they have a Knanaya parent) but are not Knanaya themselves (they also have a non-Knanaya). This also applies to adopted children who are also not Knanaya (this really saddens me ). Even if a parent cannot make their child Knanaya, but he/she can pass on the traditions. If Knanaya get a church, such people will not be allowed in. Also if another church is created for these non-Knanaya, you can bet that the Knanaya will be in an uproar. Therefore, a Knanaya church should not and will not be formed.

Ok, here is an interesting question. What is the position of Kottayam Archeparchy towards Knanaya protestants (pentecostal, CSI etc.) decide to become Catholic? Will Mar Moolakkattu demand to see a family tree or ask for a blood test or DNA test? What proof do they have that they are Knanaya? Would anyone who claims to be, just rejected even if they actually are? I think it would be pretty embarrassing if they tried to match genetic markers lol, just saying

 

[fijiq48]

Well really even though Knananites don’t have an official autonomous church, don’t most people already see them as a separate church? I mean no one will call a Knanaya Catholic a Syro Malabar Knanaya Catholic. Outside my church on the sign it doesn’t say Syro Malabar Knanaya Catholic Church, It just says Knanaya Catholic Church. When most malayalees ask me what church I go to, I say The Knanaya Catholic and no one ever says oh no don’t you mean The Syro Malabar Church in which you have Kottayam Archdiocese? No they will not say that because most people already see Knanayas as a separate ecclesiastical identity. In Kerala when churches are referred too people say oh there is the Malankara Sabha, Syro Malabar Sabha, Knanaya Sabha, etc. No one really includes Knanayas into the Syro Malabar. Like you said yourself you see the existence of Kottayam Archdiocese as a blemish upon your great Syro Malabar Church. Why would we want to be apart of a mother church who see us as a blemish? These are just a few more reasons why we should receive a Sui Juris.

** These parents who married non Knanaya are totally aware that they are no longer apart of Kottayam Archdiocese or the Jacobite Diocese, why would they continue our traditions? Once you’ve married out you are out, there’s no point in arguing and saying your still Knanaya. They made the decision to leave ** And why would there be a church made for non Knanayas if a Knanaya Sui Juris is created? There is no group called Non-Knanaya Catholic Church , these people are ether Syro Malabar or belong to another church. The question about protestants, you would have to ask Kottayam Bishop himself because i have no idea how they would know if they were Knanaya unless the protestants kept records . Knanaya Catholics and Jacobites have a membership records within the diocese and each parish , that is how our record on who is Knanaya is kept. Oh and where did you see these posters for separation?

 

[fijiq48]

Well really even though Knananites don’t have an official autonomous church, don’t most people already see them as a separate church? I mean no one will call a Knanaya Catholic a Syro Malabar Knanaya Catholic. Outside my church on the sign it doesn’t say Syro Malabar Knanaya Catholic Church, It just says Knanaya Catholic Church. When most malayalees ask me what church I go to, I say The Knanaya Catholic and no one ever says oh no don’t you mean The Syro Malabar Church in which you have Kottayam Archdiocese? No they will not say that because most people already see Knanayas as a separate ecclesiastical identity. In Kerala when churches are referred too people say oh there is the Malankara Sabha, Syro Malabar Sabha, Knanaya Sabha, etc. No one really includes Knanayas into the Syro Malabar. Like you said yourself you see the existence of Kottayam Archdiocese as a blemish upon your great Syro Malabar Church. Why would we want to be apart of a mother church who see us as a blemish? These are just a few more reasons why we should receive a Sui Juris.

** These parents who married non Knanaya are totally aware that they are no longer apart of Kottayam Archdiocese or the Jacobite Diocese, why would they continue our traditions? Once you’ve married out you are out, there’s no point in arguing and saying your still Knanaya. You made the decision to leave ** And why would there be a church made for non Knanayas if a Knanaya Sui Juris is created? There is no group called Non-Knanaya Catholic Church , these people are ether Syro Malabar or belong to another church. The question about protestants, you would have to ask Kottayam Bishop himself because i have no idea how they would know if they were Knanaya unless the protestants kept records . Knanaya Catholics and Jacobites have a membership records within the diocese and each parish , that is how our record on who is Knanaya is kept. Oh and where did you see these posters for separation?

 

[yawsep1569]

Dear brother Fiji48, I think I have somewhat offended you so I apologize for the slights I made. The only reason I feel Kottayam archdiocese is “a blemish” is because it is creating a disunity within the Church itself. My deepest desire is for all of us to accept each other as authentic Mar Toma Nasranis before God and to worship him together. There is no need to have another church for a group of us, just because of the family we are born to. I do not think it is fair to see Syro-malabar vs. Knanaya as some kind of contest. I consider you Syro-malabar as a brother in our church, who belongs to a special family within it. Preserve your traditions and customs, but there really is no need to have separate church. I don’t think Syro-malabar is that great, really. In fact, I pretty strong case could be made that we should unite with the Chaldeans. I really would have no problem with that but many people would go crazy upon hearing that, even priests and bishops. Just look at all the nonsense about the sanctuary veil and Mar Toma cross. Why is there this deep-seated desire among all of us to just create division. In politics, in associations, in churches. It all makes me very sad.

As we sing for Sapra on feast-days:
“Sow on earth Your unity,
peace and charity, O Lord”

Blessings, brother.