Knanaya Catholics and Endogamy

[BEINGHUMAN]

To Cristiano-

In the special case of Knanaya Catholics, it would be linage to 72 missionary families. In The Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches as long as you are a baptiz ed member of that particular church you are a member. Please correct me if I’m wrong. The reason I say endogamy is accepted by the church is because of the creation of Kottayam Diocese.

If it wasn’t accept by the church would they not change Kottayam diocese into a mixed membership diocese? But no it is a diocese reserved for Knanaya Catholics and no one else. According to the “Universi Christiani” by Pope St.Pius X " Kottayam Archbishop is allowed to remove any member of the diocese who has an exogamous marriage. It’s not like Kottayam Archdiocese is working in secret , The Catholic Church has full awareness of The endogamous Knanaya Catholics.

dear brother…why would you want to divide yourself from other christian?..do you give more importance to jesus or your jewish tradition?..bible says

1 Corinthians 1:10-1 - I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Acts 5:29 - But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.’’

what knanaya people are doing is that acting in self interest and not following the bible…if you divide from god …then god will divide from you…there is no reason… to follow your tradition because its not necessary…pls listen to god and stop making divisions because it will just lead to extinction…

 

[daffyjoe]

Dear moderator,
According to the published DNA tests of Southists (knanaya according to Makil), The topic should be changed to Knanaya and (Pseudo) endogamy…

 

[Knanaya_Justice]

I am a Knanaya Catholic myself, and recently in 2012 the Knanaya Catholics have started an independence movement away from the Syro Malabar Church. The Knanaya feel they are not receiving anything they ask for from the Syro Malabar Church.

We have been trying to get one, just one more diocese but the Syro Malabar church denied us of that. We asked for a Diocese in North America , because our people would like to be under a Knanaya Bishop instead of Mar Angadiath, but they denied us of that as well.

When we sent Rome a letter about a diocese in North America, for a Knanaya bishop to govern his people , they denied us of that, even though in 1911, The Syro Malabar Catholics in Kerala pleaded to Rome to remove Mar Mathai Makil (A Knanaya Bishop) who Rome appointed to a Syro Malabar Diocese. Rome eventually removed Mar Mathai Makil just because he was a Knanaya and the Syro Malabar people did not want a Knanaya running there diocese … Then Mar Mathai Makil petitioned Rome for a diocese just for his people, and Rome erected The Knanaya Catholic Diocese of Kottayam.

What sparked this independence movement was when Mar Angadiath ordered the Knanaya Parishes in North America to give membership to Non-Knananites. See the Knanayas allow non Knanites to there parishes for quarbana but do not allow them membership to the parish. For this you must be born of two Knanaya parents(The Archbishop of Kottayam has made this quite clear).

We feel we have been behind the Syro Malabar Church for too long. To give an example it is like a minority in a country. When Mar Angadiath forced the order for Knanaya mixed churches in North America, it is a way to exterminate Knanaya Catholics. Eventually we feel this order will be forced upon Kerala Knanayas which will lead to the extinction of Knanaya. We have helped and supported the growth of the Syro Malabar Church, But they have not once, supported the growth of The Knanaya Arch Diocese of Kottayam.

Now KCC(Knanaya Catholic Congress) has told each Knanaya Catholic Parish around the world to sign a petetion in order for the Knanites to recieve a Sui Juris, Eastern Catholic church separate from the Syro Malabar Church our bishop approved and the message will be dispatched around the globe . This petition will eventually be sent to Syro Malabar Major Archbishop Mar George Allencherry in June, who will then send it to Rome.

Hello

If you want to practice endogamy, why don’t you give up catholic faith and become your own religion ? Also get out of USA too

 

[Knanaya_Justice]

I have many Knanaya friends and love them as members of our church. I do not even have too much of a problem with their endogamy since many groups support it to some degrees. However, I do not see on what basis they can be recognized as being ecclesiastically distinct from other Syro-malabar christians. Even granting that they really are a separate genetic group (which I sincerely doubt), how can the Church discriminate a group that is purely motivated on genetic/ancestral grounds? Is not the Church open to all converts? But the Knanaya (Kottayam eparchy) is completely closed to any converts. If there is something I am missing, please let me know. Otherwise, I see their ecclesiastical existence as a blemish upon the Syro-malabar church

Please help to stop the discrimination that all knanaya Catholic Churches are trying to implement in USA as in kottayam. ( Endogamy the Devil ). All the knanaya church members are indirectly supporting cast system and racism by excluding their own brothers and sons in the name of blood purity. We are asking you as the citizens of United States to put a stop to this discrimination in knanaya Catholic Churches of United States by writing letters to the right people and getting the media involved to point out this discrimination in the name Jesus. Please look up all the knanaya church locations in USA and write letters along with march infront of churches to end discrimination based on Blood Purity ( Endogamy ). Like a bad tradition Sathi of hindhu religion, endogamy should be stopped in United States. Thanks

 

[Mathewsss]

Shalom to all friends in god !! I register my account in this forum to say something to dear Knanaya friends , I just to wanna remain you Knanaya ladies and gentle man , we all are beloved and submitted to Lord Jesus Christ , he who came for all religion and all people in this world specially for sinners he never says I came for Jews or Muslims or Christians either Knanaya’s so please try to understand your endogamy philosophy is really worst thing in this world specially who’s from Kerala , I am a Jew and I BELIVE in Christ as Savior , but I must say you Knanya’s from Kerala never look like Syrians or Kna’s or Palestinian you had a great story of endogamy but your forefathers never follow that you all mix with Indians , your skin color , hair color languages ,all says the truth , none of you look like Syriac or Kna’s sadly I must say that Lord Jesus will never Ask you or to me " you were lived in earth as a Jew or Knanaya ?? Never he will only ask you ladies and gentleman , how you keep my laws , did you love each other ?? Did you keep my trinity in holy and highness ?? BELIVE me endogamy is over now it’s a folks , Love each other - Teach your generation to love everyone , come out of the box , don’t be like ISLAM , I can see what’s happening there , all of them in a box and wear yellow glasses , then says we are right , everything is Yellow !!

 

[Thomas48]

Shalom to all friends in god !! I register my account in this forum to say something to dear Knanaya friends , I just to wanna remain you Knanaya ladies and gentle man , we all are beloved and submitted to Lord Jesus Christ , he who came for all religion and all people in this world specially for sinners he never says I came for Jews or Muslims or Christians either Knanaya’s so please try to understand your endogamy philosophy is really worst thing in this world specially who’s from Kerala , I am a Jew and I BELIVE in Christ as Savior , but I must say you Knanya’s from Kerala never look like Syrians or Kna’s or Palestinian you had a great story of endogamy but your forefathers never follow that you all mix with Indians , your skin color , hair color languages ,all says the truth , none of you look like Syriac or Kna’s sadly I must say that Lord Jesus will never Ask you or to me " you were lived in earth as a Jew or Knanaya ?? Never he will only ask you ladies and gentleman , how you keep my laws , did you love each other ?? Did you keep my trinity in holy and highness ?? BELIVE me endogamy is over now it’s a folks , Love each other - Teach your generation to love everyone , come out of the box , don’t be like ISLAM , I can see what’s happening there , all of them in a box and wear yellow glasses , then says we are right , everything is Yellow !!

That is only your point of view and your opinion.

 

[Mathewsss]

Greetings from Jerusalem , shalom to all , that’s my opinion that’s why I share it to all who they convene as serious will be pleased , smile Mr. Christmas on our way …( story behind this add was one my friend from India - Kerala he’s born in RC family but unfortunately fall in love with one Of Kna girl from his village , I don’t remember his place name but its south kerala anyway , the funniest thing for me and saddest to him was that girl who he love like an angel told to him I am a Kna girl and our family belongs to endogamy culture !!! But she love him too but she can’t hurt her father or mother , when he came to me and share this story , I book a trunk call and talk with that girl as well as she’s ready to come out of her Kna group he can marry her of course but I suggest to that girl your parents aren’t haooy for this marriage then its not a "Marriage " both hearts were so sophisticated but according to my suggestions of course pain fully they separated , and living happy but I know till the end of their life there will be gap that made by themselves 'cause some religion folks we lose the value and purity of the " GREAT LOVE " - I beg pardon for ma bad English , I hope I won’t feel bad on it , I respect everyone as my brothers and sisters , mostly Jewish is not a religion it’s life style that’s why I wonder how crazy religions grows on india and rule people !!!

 

[Thomas48]

Greetings from Jerusalem , shalom to all , that’s my opinion that’s why I share it to all who they convene as serious will be pleased , smile Mr. Christmas on our way …( story behind this add was one my friend from India - Kerala he’s born in RC family but unfortunately fall in love with one Of Kna girl from his village , I don’t remember his place name but its south kerala anyway , the funniest thing for me and saddest to him was that girl who he love like an angel told to him I am a Kna girl and our family belongs to endogamy culture !!! But she love him too but she can’t hurt her father or mother , when he came to me and share this story , I book a trunk call and talk with that girl as well as she’s ready to come out of her Kna group he can marry her of course but I suggest to that girl your parents aren’t haooy for this marriage then its not a "Marriage " both hearts were so sophisticated but according to my suggestions of course pain fully they separated , and living happy but I know till the end of their life there will be gap that made by themselves 'cause some religion folks we lose the value and purity of the " GREAT LOVE " - I beg pardon for ma bad English , I hope I won’t feel bad on it , I respect everyone as my brothers and sisters , mostly Jewish is not a religion it’s life style that’s why I wonder how crazy religions grows on india and rule people !!!

The Catholic Church and Syriac Orthodox Church has allowed our customs and we will continue to invoke them.

 

[Mathewsss]

I have no problem with anyone’s religious views or culture such as (endogamy) you can follow whatever your culture and religion force you to do , I just share an experience witch happened to my friend , ( their Love end with Endogamy ) human created with high sense but everyone act like handpicked monkeys 'cause of religious rule !! Ex: Islam - you must marry a Muslim or the people who’s not Muslims comes to Muslim , Christian orthodox , Jewish orthodox , Jacobite , Egyptian Christians , Knanaya all of them following the same rule while the matter of Marriage but any of these persons or religious people will never ask when they gotta an accident or such (emergency of deed of blood or body particle )is this a blood of Kna or Christian or Jew la Muslim ??? NEVER !! Death is same to everyone time will never ask you who you are ? Time will only say " I am the Time you must know that and I don’t need to know who you are ! " the Kna people from Kerala or India says they came from Syria but they never look like Syrians few yes we accept , but endogamy only in paper you guys already mixed up really mixed up " this is not my opinion it’s the sound witch echoing your own head " sadly it’s true ,

 

[Thomas48]

I have no problem with anyone’s religious views or culture such as (endogamy) you can follow whatever your culture and religion force you to do , I just share an experience witch happened to my friend , ( their Love end with Endogamy ) human created with high sense but everyone act like handpicked monkeys 'cause of religious rule !! Ex: Islam - you must marry a Muslim or the people who’s not Muslims comes to Muslim , Christian orthodox , Jewish orthodox , Jacobite , Egyptian Christians , Knanaya all of them following the same rule while the matter of Marriage but any of these persons or religious people will never ask when they gotta an accident or such (emergency of deed of blood or body particle )is this a blood of Kna or Christian or Jew la Muslim ??? NEVER !! Death is same to everyone time will never ask you who you are ? Time will only say " I am the Time you must know that and I don’t need to know who you are ! " the Kna people from Kerala or India says they came from Syria but they never look like Syrians few yes we accept , but endogamy only in paper you guys already mixed up really mixed up " this is not my opinion it’s the sound witch echoing your own head " sadly it’s true ,

Whatever our origins may be, whether it be Jewish, Middle Eastern, Syrian, Hindu, the Knanayas have pride in their heritage. We have safe guarded our traditions of marriage, funeral, pesaha, folklore,songs,dance,hymns,acts, and numerous other customs for centuries and will continue to do so.

 

[MONTU]

wow i got to know a lot about the Knanaya catholics and endogamy through this forum…thank u so much…so u mean as a hindu it is impossible for one to marry a person from the Knanaya community??Is there a way this can be done without hurting the sentiments of the church??

 

[SyroMalankara]

As a Hindu, it’s near impossible to marry any St. Thomas Christian with the approval of the Church without first converting to the Church and being baptized.

 

[MONTU]

Thank you for your reply…so one can join the church and get baptised??I mean is that allowed by the Knanaya community??

 

[Aramis]

Thank you for your reply…so one can join the church and get baptised??I mean is that allowed by the Knanaya community??

The Knanaya parish will probably be willing to baptize you, but that won’t make you Knanaya… Endogamy has two elements to it: marriage only within the community, and joining the community only by birth.

You can’t join the Knanaya under their current rules; if you were to convert at a Knanaya parish you would be Syro-Malabar, and if you married a Knanaya in India, both of you would be Syro-Malabar, but not Knanaya.

Keep in mind: The Knanaya community exists outside the church; it’s tied to the church, but is as much a social phenomenon as a religious one.

 

[recluse]

As a member of the knanaya community, I had not been particularly bothered about my knanaya identity until the past few years. As you may or may not be aware, most of knanaites live in kerala where the arranged marriage system prevails. Without going into the merits or demerits of that, I find myself in a dilemma, to look for a person within my community or to look for the person I feel would be my best match regardless of my community. In a perfect world, whether I marry a knanaite or non-kna should not be anybodies concern. But in the real world, there is definite social pressure against marrying outside the community. But when you add to this the stigma of being kicked out of the church which you have attended for the past 2 to 3 decades, of being a second class citizen in the same church, there is a strong force preventing a free choice. It is sad that the clergy and other member of the community who for reasons that may be based on pure or not so pure motives are attempting to strengthen this schism. Dear Yawsep1569, I agree that knanaya identity should be decoupled from the church identity, but then there would not be such a drive to hold on to the identity. Dear Fijiq48, do you really believe that it is ONLY to maintain the rites and customs that everyone is agitating for a seperate church and not for the power or prestige that comes with it? I pray God gives me the wisdom to make the right choice as I go on…
edit: purely from a scientific point of view, could the high incidence of high iq and mental diseases in the knanaya community have anything to do with endogamy

 

[system]

knanaya people are misguided. they are doing endogamy based on a guys opinion who is not god.

 

[Akhil]

I’m a Hindu from Kerala, India in sincere love with a Christian girl. Although being a Hindu, I believe in Lord Jesus and several aspects and ideologies of Christian faith. I have gone to churches and attended prayer sessions ( of course without violating any rules of Christian faith). My family also believes in Christianity. My mother used to go to church and attend prayer sessions with her college mates during those days and gas passed on that belief in Lord Jesus to us. Also my family as well as our neighbouring families were brought up by teachings of Sri Narayana Guru from Kerala whose principle teaching was to believe in one God for Mankind and to be a good human being irrespective of religion.

What I wanted to convey was that although I’m a Hindu and also a believer in Lord Jesus, I do not want to convert to Christianity. But I’m very much sure that I will be able support and accompany her in all her Christian beliefs in all possible ways unless it violates any rules of Christian faith. I’m also sure that my family will encourage her in continuing her belief in Lord Jesus as well as accompanying her to the church.

I have heard and seen of many Hindu-Christian marriages done with the permission of church, in which case either of us would not require to convert to any particular religion. But what makes our love story more complicated is the fact that she is Knanaya catholic who I understand have been practicing endogamous tradition of marriages for years. As a result she has not actually accepted her love for me though she knows that my love for her is very much sincere.

I understand that she is true Knanaya catholic and a loving daughter and would never want to do anything that would hurt or embarrass her parents or family in any way and neither do I want her to do anything of that sort. But I can also see the helplessness in her eyes in not accepting my love for her.

I love her sincerely and want to live the rest of my life happily with her. But I do not want her to abandon her parents or the Christian faith and elope with me. I want to live happily with her with the blessings of Lord Jesus.

I believe that Lord Jesus would want us to live happily in love forever as well.

Please enlighten me with your advices and directions in all possible ways and considering all possible aspects to this problem especially keeping in mind the fact that she is a Knanaya catholic.

I’m sorry if I have said anything wrong or hurt any sentiments of Christian faith. Please consider it as my lack of knowledge.

I believe love and belief in god are above all traditions and customs.

Thank you.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Loving and believing in God means having to sacrifice some things that we want. If you truly believe in Jesus - the real Jesus, not one that is convenient or just a very nice man - you cannot continue to also believe another faith.

Regarding Hindu-Christian marriages, they are not encouraged by the Church. Some are tolerated, however these are rare - at the end of the day, they will create chaos for your family or her family. This is more so if both or either family are practicing and religious. I know many Hindus are willing to accept ‘some’ aspect of Christian belief. However, Christianity - more so Catholicism - is not a ‘bits-and-parts’ faith; either you believe all of it, or realistically you don’t believe it and are just going along with the parts you find comfortable.

In addition to this difference among you, you have the Knanaya custom of endogamy and culture to over come. When the other person in your relationship is unwilling to part with either of these - for good reasons as you have stated - wouldn’t the really loving thing be to let her go?

 

[Akhil]

I’m sorry if I’m posting anything wrong that us hurting the sentiments of Christian faith.

But isn’t Lord Jesus and Christian Faith something much higher than the culture and traditions. Why should such a heavenly blessing be confined to a few people or churches. Wouldn’t Lord Jesus bless and help everyone who seeks him for help irrespective of their religion. I believe in Jesus, and I see Him as someone who is much above these.bounded limitations and that He would always support true love, especially in a world where the institution of marriage and sincere relationships are actually breaking down.

And when a Hindu like me also starts appreciating and believing more Christian faith with an interfaith marriage, isn’t the Christian faith actually expanding on a long term.

And as far as she is considered, I know that she will soon accept her love for me, because true love is God isn’t it? But I do not want her to convert. Like I said, I’m only happy in going to church. So I wish I could help her continue her belief in Jesus by protecting her religious beliefs, especially considering Knanaya community. I read somewhere that Houston Knanaya Community have agreed for Knanayas to marry outside without being excommunicated. How is it presently for Kottayam Archdiocese?

Whom should I seek personal help in this matter by direct contact?

Sorry for any mistakes if any.

Thank You.

 

[Thomas48]

I’m sorry if I’m posting anything wrong that us hurting the sentiments of Christian faith.

But isn’t Lord Jesus and Christian Faith something much higher than the culture and traditions. Why should such a heavenly blessing be confined to a few people or churches. Wouldn’t Lord Jesus bless and help everyone who seeks him for help irrespective of their religion. I believe in Jesus, and I see Him as someone who is much above these.bounded limitations and that He would always support true love, especially in a world where the institution of marriage and sincere relationships are actually breaking down.

And when a Hindu like me also starts appreciating and believing more Christian faith with an interfaith marriage, isn’t the Christian faith actually expanding on a long term.

And as far as she is considered, I know that she will soon accept her love for me, because true love is God isn’t it? But I do not want her to convert. Like I said, I’m only happy in going to church. So I wish I could help her continue her belief in Jesus by protecting her religious beliefs, especially considering Knanaya community. I read somewhere that Houston Knanaya Community have agreed for Knanayas to marry outside without being excommunicated. How is it presently for Kottayam Archdiocese?

Whom should I seek personal help in this matter by direct contact?

Sorry for any mistakes if any.

Thank You.

Hello Dear Friend,

If a Knanaya marries out of the community, then he/she is no longer considered Knanaya. That individual then has the choice to convert to his/her spouses Church or they may have their records transferred to the nearest Syro Malabar diocese. This is the universal custom of endogamy for Knanayas. Their is however a minority movement in the community to not excommunicate tho who marry out, “once a Knanaya always a Knanaya”. However this movement has not really taken hold, the majority of the community still holds on to the traditional practice. Also I am from Houston, here we still practice traditional endogamy, no such changes have been made.

In your case my friend, I agree with you. God is love, so follow your heart and if you want to marry her, than so be it. Don’t waste the chance for love just because of a communities practice. My family is not the most “zealous” of Knanayas, and we have had many children marry out. I have three Caucasian cousins, a Sikh cousin, a Hindu cousin, and a Muslim cousin. Sure many of my uncles and aunts were not happy at first but quickly they loved our new family members. Today these cousins-in-law are ingrained very deeply into my family and our culture. It is not that big of a deal, so in the most honest recommendation of a Knanaya Catholic, go for love my friend or else you will regret it forever. If you plan to convert however, it would be must prudent to join the Syro Malabar Church so she can retain her East Syriac Qurbana.