Knanaya Catholics and Endogamy

  • Thread starter Thread starter yawsep1569
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
To Yawsep-

Knanaya’s accept everyone as Saint Thomas Christians, we just dont accept everyone as Knanayas.

About Chaldeans- The problem is there was a period of disconnection between us and the Chaldeans because of European invasion and Syro Malabars just become too different i guess. In the past we probably shared the same “exact” liturgy and rite as the Chaldeans but I’m pretty sure thats changed.

The altar veil is corresponded to the Jewish custom of unveiling the ark of the covenant. Nasranis follow this custom to unveil the altar. If you notice during our Quarbana we also share another custom with the Jews. When our priests bring the bible down from the steps of the inner altar to the outer altar and carry it high above there heads, they are signifying the Jewish custom of the Rabi showing the torah to the public. The Jews do this to signify Moses carrying the ten commandments down from the mountain. I believe other eastern Catholics follow this custom as well. Or it might be a distinguishable factor of the Syro Malabar Church. I think the Marthoma cross is just a cross that gives pride to the Saint Thomas Christians like the Coptic Cross of the Christians in Egypt.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Nasranihagbah.JPG
 
Holy See has given this instruction in ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
  1. The Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government and who, combining together into various groups which are held together by a hierarchy, form separate Churches or Rites. Between these there exists an admirable bond of union, such that the variety within the Church in no way harms its unity; rather it manifests it, for it is the mind of the Catholic Church that each individual Church or Rite should retain its traditions whole and entire and likewise that it should adapt its way of life to the different needs of time and place.(2)
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html
 
To JharekCarnellian-

The Knananya Community is a strictly Christian based organization. Christianity and ethnic identity tie together when it comes to Knanayas. Not just with Knanayas but with every other eastern catholic church.

To give a scenerio lets say the pope installed a Latin rite bishop to the Chadlean church. There would be an uproar, the Chaldeans would not stand for it. Because it all has to do with ethnicity, they would rather be under someone of there same ethnicity and rite. Just like the Knanayas feel comfortable under their priests and their bishops. If ethnicity had nothing to do with Christianity then we might as well abolish all eastern catholic churches.
 
In no Catholic Church or Orthodox Church is there any law requiring members to have a certain DNA. Perhaps, families may pressure children to marry within the same ethnicity. But that is not and cannot be a church policy. Of course, a Latin bishop cannot be the Chaldean Patriarch. That makes no sense whatsoever. But a white Chaldean, Mongolian Chaldean, or black Chaldean can. There are white bishops in the Coptic Orthodox Church. There are black bishops in the Roman Catholic Church. No Church is based on ethnicity, though it may have a special affiliation to one due to history. But it can NEVER exclude others. Fijiq, you have a very negative attitude towards the existence of Eastern Catholic Churches. We don’t just exist so that we don’t have to marry white people. If I marry a white American girl, she damn well better be ready to be a Syro Malabar Catholic. Churches arise out of their historical circumstances, patrimony, spiritual heritage, liturgical identity etc… Never because they don’t want to marry anybody else. Such an attitude is the very essence of phyletism, an utter heresy. Churches based on heresy are not Churches. So, there really is no such thing as a Knanaya Church. At least not in the Catholic or Orthodox communions. Sorry.
 
Oh no no, u have me all wrong my friend, I’m in full support of the eastern catholic churches in fact i like them better than the Latin church( Just in liturgy and tradition). I was just giving a scenario with the reference to the Chaldean s above, please don’t take it in the wrong way.

Knanayas have no Law of marrying Knanaya. No one is forcing someone to stay Knanaya or not stay Knanaya, its a personal choice. If you make the CHOICE not to marry Knanaya, then you have freedom to do what you will except stay in Kottayam Archdiocese or Knanaya Jacobite Diocese.

I don’t understand what the big problem is if Knanayas are endogamous. Is it affecting any other Christians in any possible way? Knanayas a small minority among the Christians of Kerala, we keep our traditions and the other Christians keep there’s. One of our traditions is endogamy. Whats the big problem with that? We’re not holding someone against there will and forcing them to marry Knanaya are we? Our endogamous traditions and other traditions were accepted by the Catholic Church in 1911 by Pope St.Pius X. In his grace Kottayam Arch Diocese was erected. I beg to differ the fact of a Knanaya Church. Go outside Christ the King, Knanaya Catholic Cathedral in Kerala. It will say Knanaya Catholic Cathedral not Syro Malabar Cathedral. Go to any one of our churches you will see the boards saying Knanaya Catholic Church . People call Mar Mathew Moolakattu Arch Bishop of the Knanaya Catholics not of the Syro Malabar Arch Diocese of Kottayam. His Grace Mar Thomas Tharayil in a speech once called himself “The Pope of all Knanaya Catholics around the globe”.

To give another example, At Nilakkal Ecumenical Church in Kerala there is a plaque outside the church that gives the name of every Christian church in Kerala and their head bishop. On this list of Churches you will see it states, “Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry, Bishop of the Knanaya Catholics”
 
fijiq48 said:
Oh no no, u have me all wrong my friend, I’m in full support of the eastern catholic churches in fact i like them better than the Latin church( Just in liturgy and tradition). I was just giving a scenario with the reference to the Chaldean s above, please don’t take it in the wrong way.

Knanayas have no Law of marrying Knanaya. No one is forcing someone to stay Knanaya or not stay Knanaya, its a personal choice. If you make the CHOICE not to marry Knanaya, then you have freedom to do what you will except stay in Kottayam Archdiocese or Knanaya Jacobite Diocese.

I don’t understand what the big problem is if Knanayas are endogamous. Is it affecting any other Christians in any possible way? Knanayas a small minority among the Christians of Kerala, we keep our traditions and the other Christians keep there’s. One of our traditions is endogamy. Whats the big problem with that? We’re not holding someone against there will and forcing them to marry Knanaya are we? Our endogamous traditions and other traditions were accepted by the Catholic Church in 1911 by Pope St.Pius X. In his grace Kottayam Arch Diocese was erected. I beg to differ the fact of a Knanaya Church. Go outside Christ the King, Knanaya Catholic Cathedral in Kerala. It will say Knanaya Catholic Cathedral not Syro Malabar Cathedral. Go to any one of our churches you will see the boards saying Knanaya Catholic Church . People call Mar Mathew Moolakattu Arch Bishop of the Knanaya Catholics not of the Syro Malabar Arch Diocese of Kottayam. His Grace Mar Thomas Tharayil in a speech once called himself “The Pope of all Knanaya Catholics around the globe”.

To give another example, At Nilakkal Ecumenical Church in Kerala there is a plaque outside the church that gives the name of every Christian church in Kerala and their head bishop. On this list of Churches you will see it states, “Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry, Bishop of the Knanaya Catholics”
Click to expand...
How would you feel if the Latin Church would say that only Romans can be a member of the Church. That also means that only a Roman could be a pope. How does it sit with you that any member from any suis juris Church would be negated the possibility of becoming pope? That implies that not all the bishops are equal in their apostolic succession.
 
Cristiano- Please remember, Knanayas are a tiny tiny group. We make up only 1/47th of the Syro Malabar population. Remember again like i said Knanayas are not a supremacist group, we only want to safe guard our traditions. We even allow others to take part in our Holy Quarbana, we just don’t allow them membership within the church. Maybe i misinterpreted but from what you said it seems like someone would be wanting to join the Knanaya Church. Why would anyone want membership into the Knanaya Church when they’re already a member of another church?
 
fijiq48 said:
Cristiano- Please remember, Knanayas are a tiny tiny group. We make up only 1/47th of the Syro Malabar population. Remember again like i said Knanayas are not a supremacist group, we only want to safe guard our traditions. We even allow others to take part in our Holy Quarbana, we just don’t allow them membership within the church. Maybe i misinterpreted but from what you said it seems like someone would be wanting to join the Knanaya Church. Why would anyone want membership into the Knanaya Church when they’re already a member of another church?
Click to expand...
I have difficulty understanding the need for a separate church structure.

I respect the Knanaya maintenance of their own ancient traditions, and if the traditional practice is to marry only within the group I accept that.

However, all of this can be accomplished through social clubs and matchmakers and that sort of thing. There is no need to maintain a separate church structure, all of the goals of the Knanaya community can be met through secular means and they can go on in such a way until the Last Days if they want.

My garandparents were immigrants who lived in the Polish community in Chicago, and they admonished their children to marry only Poles. This is their choice, and Poles are traditionallty a Roman Catholic people for the most part.

However, this has nothing to do with religion, ultimately it is a social concern. It is done within the context of community, but not the temple. If Christ’s holy church collaborates in this sort of discrimination I believe it is wrong.
 
fijiq48 said:
Cristiano- Please remember, Knanayas are a tiny tiny group. We make up only 1/47th of the Syro Malabar population. Remember again like i said Knanayas are not a supremacist group, we only want to safe guard our traditions. We even allow others to take part in our Holy Quarbana, we just don’t allow them membership within the church. Maybe i misinterpreted but from what you said it seems like someone would be wanting to join the Knanaya Church. Why would anyone want membership into the Knanaya Church when they’re already a member of another church?
Click to expand...
My impression is that when you say that people are not allowed to join a church or that they are excluding their member when they marry outsiders you are going against the principle of universality and that it is the definition of Catholic. I do not argue endogamy because I can see a lot on wisdom associated with that concept. I am arguing the fact that an endogamous Catholic Church is a contradiction in terms.
 
To (name removed by moderator)- No the Knanaya spouse must join the church of the non Knanaya spouse or join another diocese of the Syro Malabar/Jacobite Church. They loose their membership to the Knanaya Diocese.

To Hesychios- Hesychios please understand no Knanayas really wanted to push for a separate church. We have been somewhat happy under the Syro Malabar church for the last 100 years. But because of recent events in North America, our leaders and even our bishops have promoted separation.

Cristiano- The creation of Kottayam Diocese in my opinion, is the Catholic Churches okay on endogamy and Knanaya traditions.
 
fijiq48 said:
To (name removed by moderator)- No the Knanaya spouse must join the church of the non Knanaya spouse or join another diocese of the Syro Malabar/Jacobite Church. They loose their membership to the Knanaya Diocese.

To Hesychios- Hesychios please understand no Knanayas really wanted to push for a separate church. We have been somewhat happy under the Syro Malabar church for the last 100 years. But because of recent events in North America, our leaders and even our bishops have promoted separation.

Cristiano- The creation of Kottayam Diocese in my opinion, is the Catholic Churches okay on endogamy and Knanaya traditions.
Click to expand...
I disagree with you. First We must assume that every Church must have the same rights. Now if all the suis juris Catholic Churches were follow this approach then two Catholics from different churches wanting to get married would be kicked out of their respective Churches and out of the Catholic communion. I do not think that this would fly in accordance with the mission of the Catholic Church.
 
But if it was so Un-Catholic , why would the church allow it and create a diocese just for it? And guys also please , Knanayas do not discriminate against anyone. Sure others maybe not be able to become members of the diocese but whats the problem in that? Others can still join in Holy Quarbana. Like i said above why would non Knanayas want to join a Knanaya diocese or go to a Knanaya parish anyway? Once again we are not some sort of religious supremacist group.

I am a Knanaya Catholic and i don’t see myself any better than other Christians, we are all equal.Knanayas do not try to elevate themselves with endogamy, its just a practice thats been with Knanayas for 1700 years, no Knanaya is willing to give up his traditions. Lets say the church you are apart of has been practicing a certain tradition for 1000+ years would you want to give up or change this practice? This is what is happening to Knanayas in North America. The Syro Malabar bishop of Chicago St.Thomas Diocese has forced an order upon his Knanaya missions/parishes that endogamy will not be allowed and that we must give membership to other Christians(These other Christians are mainly Knanayas who married out of the church who complained to the bishop). This is the reason why many Knanayas have voted for separation from the Syro Malabar Church.

Knanaya Documentary- youtube.com/watch?v=tgiKGufjJLk
 
fijiq48 said:
But if it was so Un-Catholic , why would the church allow it and create a diocese just for it? And guys also please , Knanayas do not discriminate against anyone. Sure others maybe not be able to become members of the diocese but whats the problem in that? Others can still join in Holy Quarbana. Like i said above why would non Knanayas want to join a Knanaya diocese or go to a Knanaya parish anyway? Once again we are not some sort of religious supremacist group.

I am a Knanaya Catholic and i don’t see myself any better than other Christians, we are all equal.Knanayas do not try to elevate themselves with endogamy, its just a practice thats been with Knanayas for 1700 years, no Knanaya is willing to give up his traditions. Lets say the church you are apart of has been practicing a certain tradition for 1000+ years would you want to give up or change this practice? This is what is happening to Knanayas in North America. The Syro Malabar bishop of Chicago St.Thomas Diocese has forced an order upon his Knanaya missions/parishes that endogamy will not be allowed and that we must give membership to other Christians(These other Christians are mainly Knanayas who married out of the church who complained to the bishop). This is the reason why many Knanayas have voted for separation from the Syro Malabar Church.

Knanaya Documentary- youtube.com/watch?v=tgiKGufjJLk
Click to expand...
Each diocese (eparchy) is also known as a particular church, so it logical to think of ARCHEPARCHY OF KOTTAYAM as a church even if it is not sui iuris.
 
fijiq48 said:
But if it was so Un-Catholic , why would the church allow it and create a diocese just for it? And guys also please , Knanayas do not discriminate against anyone. Sure others maybe not be able to become members of the diocese but whats the problem in that? Others can still join in Holy Quarbana. Like i said above why would non Knanayas want to join a Knanaya diocese or go to a Knanaya parish anyway? Once again we are not some sort of religious supremacist group.

I am a Knanaya Catholic and i don’t see myself any better than other Christians, we are all equal.Knanayas do not try to elevate themselves with endogamy, its just a practice thats been with Knanayas for 1700 years, no Knanaya is willing to give up his traditions. Lets say the church you are apart of has been practicing a certain tradition for 1000+ years would you want to give up or change this practice? This is what is happening to Knanayas in North America. The Syro Malabar bishop of Chicago St.Thomas Diocese has forced an order upon his Knanaya missions/parishes that endogamy will not be allowed and that we must give membership to other Christians(These other Christians are mainly Knanayas who married out of the church who complained to the bishop). This is the reason why many Knanayas have voted for separation from the Syro Malabar Church.

Knanaya Documentary- youtube.com/watch?v=tgiKGufjJLk
Click to expand...
What is your theological understanding of being a member of a parish and being member of a suis juris Church? Maybe if you were to share your take on it then we could understand better if we have different opinions about some fundamentals of the the Church. I am not saying that my opinion is right and yours is wrong, right now I am simply saying that because of my understanding what you are saying appears contradictory.
 
To Cristiano-

In the special case of Knanaya Catholics, it would be linage to 72 missionary families. In The Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches as long as you are a baptized member of that particular church you are a member. Please correct me if I’m wrong. The reason I say endogamy is accepted by the church is because of the creation of Kottayam Diocese.

If it wasn’t accept by the church would they not change Kottayam diocese into a mixed membership diocese? But no it is a diocese reserved for Knanaya Catholics and no one else. According to the “Universi Christiani” by Pope St.Pius X " Kottayam Archbishop is allowed to remove any member of the diocese who has an exogamous marriage. It’s not like Kottayam Archdiocese is working in secret , The Catholic Church has full awareness of The endogamous Knanaya Catholics.
 
**Note from Moderator: **
A conversation on the relationship of Knanaya Catholics to the Syro-Malabar Church was sufficiently off-topic to create a new thread from it. Please see here for that discussion.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator
 
Oh!!! I See!!! I said the truth and in a second my answers and proofs were sent to recycle bin with a click by moderator.TRUELY CATHOLIC!!!😛
 
daffyjoe said:
Oh!!! I See!!! I said the truth and in a second my answers and proofs were sent to recycle bin with a click by moderator.TRUELY CATHOLIC!!!😛
Click to expand...
First public complaining about the moderator decisions will get you banned, that is a fundamental rule of this forum. Second before complaining read the message posted by the moderator and follow the link that he included in the post.
 
First public complaining about the moderator decisions will get you banned, that is a fundamental rule of this forum.
Click to expand...
What about a second one?!! 😃
Second before complaining read the message posted by the moderator and follow the link that he included in the post.
Click to expand...
Read and understood.Pardon me Jesus christ, doing wrong is the path to be Right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top