Knee jerk response to faith alone

[benedictus2]

So the teaching of the Catholic Church on justification is comprehensive of all aspects of the process taught in Scripture.

1. Initial justification or the beginning of justification which is by grace without any merit on our part.

There is no such thing as initial justification in Catholic Doctrine. Only initial grace. Then our initial response. Then grace-response, grace-response, grace-response till the end of our life.

1. The beginning of justification before Baptism and the continuing justification which is after Baptism which are by grace through faith and works.

I don’t think there is such a thing as justification before Baptism either. Only God’s deep love for us and a great desire for our salvation. At this stage, we are certainly not justified. However, He already has in mind our justification and has decided to set things in motion.

I think the one important thing to remember about salvation is this: Salvation is not just a matter of you getting into heaven, but rather a matter of getting Heaven into you.** This is what we call deification or theosis.
**
That by the way is how Peter Kreeft and Francis Beckwith phrased it.

 

[benedictus2]

Christ did not die for all people. Otherwise, there would be no hell.

That is a rather illogical statement. Why would the existence of hell rule out the reality that Christ died for all? That He died for all does not necessarily mean that all will be saved because our response to grace is needed. You sound Calvinistic.

And the fact is that sinners remain in this world. But although God the Father loves them, He doesn’t love them as much as He loves those who obey Christ and in so doing become like Christ.

Boy that theology is wayyyyyy wrong. You believe in a God who has favourites???!!!
God IS love. He does not merely exhibit love, or feel love. Love is not just an attribute of God. God IS love. God’s very being IS love so He can’t be anything but love. He can’t be anything but loving to all.

Notice that the Father loves those who love the Son. Not just anyone.

Does not necessarily follow. True the Father loves those who love the Son. But it did not say that the Father did not love those who did not love the Son.

The Father’s love for us is conditional on our love for the Son. And if we couple this with John 15:10, our love for the Son is conditioned on our keeping the Commandments.

No it is not. God’s love for us has no conditions. Why else would Christ die for us while we were still sinners. Christ died for us even before we loved Him. It is precisely because He loved us and died for us that we are able to love Him.

T**he NT also said that the Father sent His Son. If the Father is selective of those who only love His Son, then He would not have sent His Son at all because no one loved His Son prior to His Son’s death on the Cross.****

It is precisely because God loves us unconditionally that we are able to love Him back.

God loved us first. Therefore, God’s love cannot be conditional on anything we do.**

 

[benedictus2]

(Footnote: Bear in mind that the Protestant formula “justified by faith” is shorthand for “justified by grace alone” [which is inherent alone in Christ’s perfect life and atonement]—faith is simply the conduit, as it were.

Well then it should be “Grace Alone” (with which I wholeheartedly concur) not “Faith Alone” (to which I do not agree with).

Faith Alone is not synonymous with Grace Alone because Faith and Grace are two different things.

Grace Alone is correct, Faith Alone is wrong.

And from the beginning we know it is wrong because it is not even Biblical.

It isn’t the “amount” of faith we have–remember the mustard seed?—or the “perfection” of our faith, but simply the fact THAT we put our whole trust in Christ & His righteousness. To use another analogy, faith is the umbilical cord through which all of God’s goodness reaches us.

Therefore those who do not have faith have not goodness from God that reaches them???

That is a humongous chunk of humanity that you are talking about for whom the grace of God is denied because they do not have faith.

That portrays a rather unjust God don’t you think?

If you cut the umbilical cord on the baby before he’s ready to live outside the womb, it deprives him of all the nutrients he needs to survive. God’s grace is the “nutrients,” faith is the “umbilical cord.”)

A rather bad analogy, this one.

Firstly because the only conduit of nutrient to a baby is the umbilical cord. That is the way things are. This limitation was willed by God.

God however is not similarly limited. He wills what He wills and that Will is exercised in Love.

 

[benedictus2]

Exactly! We change our very nature. Works are transformative.

That is a point that elude so many.

Works is transformative in the same manner that exercise builds muscles. Whatever muscle one exercises is what will grow.

If we exercise virtue regularly then we become virtuous and by doing so come closer to imaging Christ. The converse is the true as well. Practice vice and you become vicious and more likely image the devil. And the more you exercise virtue (yeses to the promptings of God’s voice) the easier it becomes to say yes. Same is true for noes to God.

Every great acts of virtue start with a small one. Great evil proceeds from seemingly harmless lies.

It is not wrong to say that we are justified by works because by establishing virtuous habits, we eliminate sin from our very soul. Our material bodies are a significant part of our soul and when we inculcate on our nerve endings and muscle memory, habits of good work and virtuous actions, we transform our very souls.

Some reason that what Faith Alone means is that salvation is God’s work apart from any merit of ours.

But this is not quite true because if we say we are saved by Faith Alone, it means that we have faith and this faith is what God uses as criteria for our salvation.

The question then is how does one come to faith? Is this through an act of autonomous will or was this a result of God’s grace and gift?

When viewed from the vantage point of salvation by unmerited grace, salvation by Faith is no different to salvation by Works since we do not claim to do good works apart from the grace given by God to do these works.

As a matter of fact, salvation by works is probably more correct because while there are people who do have faith and will be saved, there are millions who do not have faith and yet have clothed the poor, fed the hungry, gave shelter to the homeless.

Even to this, as far as they have given assent to the inner voice of God in them, to these too Christ will say : Now enter into the home of my Father.

 

[alaindelong]

Whenever I am engaged in apologetic debate with my protestant friends on the subject of justification by faith alone (alone inserted by Luther) I simply ask them to turn to Matthew 25:31-46. This compelling reference refutes faith alone. by leaving Christ unattended through failure to administer to His brethren. They might counter that it is sins of omission that send the “goats” to hell. That is true, However these are also works of love for there is a certain physicallty in feeding the hungry etc. Anyway you look at this Matthew is about works of true Christian charity done not for our glory, but for the glory of God and His Kingdom. When we see the face of Christ in all our neighbors who need our charity , these works become efficacious and salvific. At the last judgement we all want to be on Christ’s left hand with the “sheep”.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Hi De Maria,
I hope you don’t mind my 2 cents.
I don’t know Iprobe’s communion, so I’m not speaking for Iprobe, but here is a Lutheran’s perspective.

No! Perseverance of Saints is a Reformed notion. While justification, in Lutheran thought is “forensic”, it does not imply that once justified, we can’t reject Christ. We can.

In a way, yes. While we believe that justification is monergistic - God brings us to justification by grace through faith, and not by any works we may do, sanctification is in some ways synergistic, we respond to grace by obeying His commands, and working to conform our lives to Him.

Our good works play no part in justification, what Catholics might call initial justification. It is the Holy Spirit working within us, through Baptism and hearing the word. Sanctification includes our response, strengthened by Grace, including sanctifying Grace in the sacraments.

Repeated and unrepented sin will eventually lead us from Christ, driving out the Holy Spirit. Confession /Absolution brings us back to Him. He forgives our sins, and cleanses us from unrighteousness.

All sin is mortal sin to the unregenerate. Lutherans generally don’t distinguish mortal and venial sins in the regenerate, but recognize the need of repentance.

Maybe, if one views merit in this way. The question is whose merit? Conforming our lives to Christ is more our willingness to be conformed by the Holy Spirit. Our good works are His works in us. Must we cooperate? Sure.

Jon

Thank you for your post, spoke with your “trademark clarity”.
Blessings on you Jon, the most catholic Lutheran I know !

 

[De_Maria]

This means there is merit for fortitude in faith (IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE - we ought to get a bonus for figuring this out). St. Thomas lists fortitude as one of the greater virtues. It’s best explained by St. John
2 Corinthians 1:18

But as God is faithful, our word toward you was not yea and nay.

He skillfully overturns a rising objection. For one might say, If after having promised, you have put off coming, and yea is not yea, and nay nay, with you, but what you say now you unsay afterwards, as you did in the case of this Journey: woe is unto us, if all this were the case in the Preaching too. Now lest they should have these thoughts and be troubled thereat, he says, But as God is faithful, our word toward you was not yea and nay. This, says he, was not the case in the Preaching, but only in our travels and journeyings; whereas whatever things we have said in our preaching, these abide steadfast and unmoveable, (for he calls his preaching here, word.) Then he brings proof of this that cannot be gainsaid, by referring all to God. What he says is this; ‘the promise of my coming was my own and I gave that promise from myself: but the preaching is not my own, nor of man, but of God, and what is of God it is impossible should lie.’ Whereupon also he said, God is faithful, that is, true. ‘Mistrust not then what is from Him, for there is nought of man in it.’ 4. And seeing he had said word, he adds what follows to explain what kind of word he means. Of what kind then is it?

2 Corinthians 1:19

For the Son of God, says he, Who was preached among you by us, even by me, and Silvanus, and Timothy, was not yea and nay… YEA!! I’ll let you finish it. It’s informative. www.newadvent.org/fathers/220203.htm

JoeT

By George…it was not, it is and it is not! Got it!

 

[De_Maria]

That is a point that elude so many.

Works is transformative in the same manner that exercise builds muscles. Whatever muscle one exercises is what will grow.

If we exercise virtue regularly then we become virtuous and by doing so come closer to imaging Christ. The converse is the true as well. Practice vice and you become vicious and more likely image the devil. And the more you exercise virtue (yeses to the promptings of God’s voice) the easier it becomes to say yes. Same is true for noes to God.

Every great acts of virtue start with a small one. Great evil proceeds from seemingly harmless lies.

Some reason that what Faith Alone means is that salvation is God’s work apart from any merit of ours.

But this is not quite true because if we say we are saved by Faith Alone, it means that we have faith and this faith is what God uses as criteria for our salvation.

The question then is how does one come to faith? Is this through an act of autonomous will or was this a result of God’s grace and gift?

When viewed from the vantage point of salvation by unmerited grace, salvation by Faith is no different to salvation by Works since we do not claim to do good works apart from the grace given by God to do these works.

As a matter of fact, salvation by works is probably more correct because while there are people who do have faith and will be saved, there are millions who do not have faith and yet have clothed the poor, fed the hungry, gave shelter to the homeless.

Even to this, as far as they have given assent to the inner voice of God in them, to these too Christ will say : Now enter into the home of my Father.

Does not Scripture say:
Romans 9:31

[31] But Israel, by following after the law of justice, is not come unto the law of justice.

[32]Why so? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were of works. For they stumbled at the stumblingstone.

And also:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

So can we truly teach that Jesus will say:

Even to this, as far as they have given assent to the inner voice of God in them, to these too Christ will say : Now enter into the home of my Father.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Cat_Herder]

Does not Scripture say:
Romans 9:31

[31] But Israel, by following after the law of justice, is not come unto the law of justice.

[32]Why so? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were of works. For they stumbled at the stumblingstone.

And also:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

So can we truly teach that Jesus will say:

Sincerely,

De Maria

Of course it does. However, salvation by “faith alone” necessarily excludes salvation for the following groups:

1. 
   *]The invincibly ignorant–for example, a Confucianist in China, where missionary work is suppressed
   *]Jews who have never had a chance to evaluate Christ as the Messiah
   *]Aborted babies
   *]Children under the age of reason
   *]The mentally incapacitated
   
   Jesus died for the salvation of everyone. So we have to be careful not to read into the admonitions in Scripture that faith is necessary for salvation that those who do not have faith through no fault of their own will not be saved. Contrary to what some Fundamentalists say, God is not going to hold liable those who never had the chance to have faith.

 

[De_Maria]

I think what you have written here is not quite correct.

There are no stages to justification or sanctification. It is just one process where…

In fact any process may be accomplished in stages. Therefore, the fact that it is one process is no argument against the idea that it is accomplished in stages.

God gives the initial grace for us to respond. The initial grace is not justification.

Indeed it is. See the letters in red:
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace** of forgiveness and justification,** at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

It is simply an initiative on the part of God who so passionately loves His creation. At the moment of the first response (whether it be by faith or work) we are not justified yet.

But justification has begun.

We can only be said to have been justified when we get to heaven and the process of deification is completed because we have been conformed to the image of Christ.

In fact, we had better be justifiied throughout our lives or we may never be deified:
**CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
**Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]
ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

Till then there is just the process of deification or theosis.

That is simply another term for the process of justification.

We are justified in the eyes of God when we have been** made **

just. We are declared just not merely forensically but rather grace has had this ontological effect on the soul such that we become truly just, hence can be declared just. That is true but in no way denies the fact of a continuing process of justification in stages. Several stages. Not just one or two.

The Catholic view is not just comprehensive, it does not have any this dichotomy between initial justification and sanctification.

It depends upon what you mean by dichotomy. If you mean two views which are opposed to each other, you are correct.

But I did not make any such division. I am explaining the various stages of justification and they are not opposed to each other. Initial justification or the beginning of justification is explained in Trent:
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called;

And sanctification is part and parcel of that same process of justification. It is the part that goes on in the Sacraments where we receive Sanctifying grace:
**CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES
**This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

benedictus2:

This split was was a result of the hegemony of the nominalist philosophy at the time of the Reformation and to which Luther and Calvin subscribed to heavily.

And this is where the error crept in. And it is an error.

Alister McGrath (who is a Protestant Theologian) calls this split between justification and sanctification a real "theological novum".

There is neither a novelty nor an error being explained in my expansion on the doctrine of Justification declared at the Council of Trent. It is a very simple recognition of the STAGES of justification. Stages that are so profound and radically different, yet bound together to make a perfect whole that only God could accomplish.

To put it differently, it is ONE process. But within it are two protagonists. God and the individual.

They both act upon the individual’s soul.

The man, by faith and works, establishes holy and virtuous habits which transform his body and mind. His body and mind are extensions of his soul and therefore, he, by virtue of cultivating these changes in his physical being, he acquires holiness in his spiritual soul. Justifying himself and thus moving towards salvation.

However, when he approaches the Sacraments, he must REST of his works and let God take over. God then acts upon the soul, pouring upon it Sanctifying Grace and literally giving birth to a new creature in Baptism. Justifying the man and literally saving him at that point in time. If the man never commits a mortal sin, he remains in a state of grace the rest of his life and will be in heaven after he dies.

Never the less, he must continue to sanctify himself by faith and works after the Sacrament of Baptism and continue to permit God to sanctify him further by means of the Sacraments at the appointed times.

One process. Two radically different forms of justification. One by man, by means of faith and works. The other by God, by means of Sanctifying Grace.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

There is no such thing as initial justification in Catholic Doctrine. Only initial grace. Then our initial response.

That depends upon what one means by “initial” justification.

1. If by the term “initial” justification, one means that a person is declared free of sin and therefore holy and saved, then you are correct. There is no such thing.
2. If by the term “initial” justification, one means that a person is converted and turned to God. Then yes, indeed there is such a thing.

Then grace-response, grace-response, grace-response till the end of our life.

No doubt.

I don’t think there is such a thing as justification before Baptism either.

It is Catholic doctrine that the process of justification begins with the initial grace of God.
**CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
**It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ,

Only God’s deep love for us and a great desire for our salvation. At this stage, we are certainly not justified. However, He already has in mind our justification and has decided to set things in motion.

I think the one important thing to remember about salvation is this: Salvation is not just a matter of you getting into heaven, but rather a matter of getting Heaven into you.** This is what we call deification or theosis.**

**

Just another name for justification.
**

That by the way is how Peter Kreeft and Francis Beckwith phrased it.

Its a wonderful phrase. But in no way does that phrase contradict what I said.

I invite you to look at my explanation more closely.

Thanks,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Your statement that Christ did not die for all people is false and heretical. We’re Catholics, not Calvinists. Christ died for ALL people, but His death won’t do any good for those who choose to reject Him.

You are correct. Christ died for all, but not all will be saved by His death.

**2606 **All the troubles, for all time, of humanity enslaved by sin and death, all the petitions and intercessions of salvation history are summed up in this cry of the incarnate Word. Here the Father accepts them and, beyond all hope, answers them by raising his Son. Thus is fulfilled and brought to completion the drama of prayer in the economy of creation and salvation. The Psalter gives us the key to prayer in Christ. In the “today” of the Resurrection the Father says: “You are my Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.” The Letter to the Hebrews expresses in dramatic terms how the prayer of Jesus accomplished the victory of salvation: “In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. ** Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered, and being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.” **

 

[De_Maria]

That is a rather illogical statement. Why would the existence of hell rule out the reality that Christ died for all? That He died for all does not necessarily mean that all will be saved because our response to grace is needed. You sound Calvinistic.

Boy that theology is wayyyyyy wrong. You believe in a God who has favourites???!!!
God IS love. He does not merely exhibit love, or feel love. Love is not just an attribute of God. God IS love. God’s very being IS love so He can’t be anything but love. He can’t be anything but loving to all.

Does not necessarily follow. True the Father loves those who love the Son. But it did not say that the Father did not love those who did not love the Son.

No it is not. God’s love for us has no conditions. Why else would Christ die for us while we were still sinners. Christ died for us even before we loved Him. It is precisely because He loved us and died for us that we are able to love Him.

T**he NT also said that the Father sent His Son. If the Father is selective of those who only love His Son, then He would not have sent His Son at all because no one loved His Son prior to His Son’s death on the Cross.****

It is precisely because God loves us unconditionally that we are able to love Him back.

God loved us first**. Therefore, God’s love cannot be conditional on anything we do.

OK. I understand what you’re saying.

God loves us all. That is Catholic doctrine. God even loves those in hell.

Now you tell me. Does God loves those in hell the same as He loves His Son, the Godman, Jesus Christ?

How about the Virgin Mary? Does God love the Virgin Mary the same as He loves Satan?

If your answer is, “yes”. Then I would like you to explain how anyone can say that God is “just”.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Well then it should be “Grace Alone” (with which I wholeheartedly concur) not “Faith Alone” (to which I do not agree with).

Faith Alone is not synonymous with Grace Alone because Faith and Grace are two different things.

Grace Alone is correct,

Certainly ALL IS GRACE. But although God alone created the world and therefore the world can be said to be created by the grace of God alone. God did not will that our salvation be according to His grace alone but by our cooperation with His grace.

**1847 “God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us.” **To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

That is why Scripture says:
Hebrews 5:9
**And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that **obey him;

And we can deduce this by the very fact that FAITH the grace by which we are saved is a very unique type of grace. It is a grace which requires that we exercise it. That is why Scripture says that faith alone is dead (James 2:17).

And faith is like a muscle. The more we exercise it, the more it grows. This is why we are justified by works and not by faith only (James 2:24).

Faith Alone is wrong.

You are correct.

And from the beginning we know it is wrong because it is not even Biblical.

You’re on a roll.

Therefore those who do not have faith have not goodness from God that reaches them???

That is a humongous chunk of humanity that you are talking about for whom the grace of God is denied because they do not have faith.

That portrays a rather unjust God don’t you think?

A rather bad analogy, this one.

Firstly because the only conduit of nutrient to a baby is the umbilical cord. That is the way things are. This limitation was willed by God.

God however is not similarly limited. He wills what He wills and that Will is exercised in Love.

Good analogy. It is the same one as the vine. But that simply means that one can do nothing unless one is being fed by the vine. One can do no good works unless one is being fed by the vine.
John 15

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Which is a teaching that confirms faith and works.

My point is that justification by faith and works is just as incomplete as saying justification by faith apart from works.

There are three modes of justification, THREE BENEDICTUS, which can be traced in the doctrine of Trent and in Scripture.

Justification by grace in the beginning of Justification or Conversion.
Justification by faith and works both before and after Baptism and after each Sacrament.
Justification by the Sacraments, which amounts to justification by faith apart from works, wherein God Himself SANCTIFIES us by pouring Sanctifying Grace into our souls.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Yaknow, the funniest thing is how incredibly difficult it can be for two people to come to a true understanding of what a written statement says. It just completely refutes even the mildest forms of Sola Scriptura IMHO…

Absolutely correct!

 

[De_Maria]

Of course it does. However, salvation by “faith alone” necessarily excludes salvation for the following groups:

1. 
   *]The invincibly ignorant–for example, a Confucianist in China, where missionary work is suppressed
   *]Jews who have never had a chance to evaluate Christ as the Messiah
   *]Aborted babies
   *]Children under the age of reason
   *]The mentally incapacitated
   
   Jesus died for the salvation of everyone. So we have to be careful not to read into the admonitions in Scripture that faith is necessary for salvation that those who do not have faith through no fault of their own will not be saved. Contrary to what some Fundamentalists say, God is not going to hold liable those who never had the chance to have faith.

1. 
   Thanks for responding. I’m considering the idea of salvation by works alone here. In the past I’ve claimed that salvation by faith alone is just as bad as salvation by works alone.
   
   I know what you are saying is true. The Church teaches that those who have not heard of Him MAY still be saved. But I’m trying to find out whether we can teach that expressly. After all, if we say that one is saved if he doesn’t know Christ, then what is the sense in teaching Christ?

 

[De_Maria]

I should have added a few more words to explain an ‘infallible Scripture’. This is the sort of Protestant solo Scriptura that we’ve both encountered, where what I read is holy scripture, the meaning of which is made clear to me by the Holy Spirit, thus it’s holiness is elevated still more, even when I apply Scripture subjectively - after all human nature is to put God on ‘our side’. God’s Truth plays a small role in this type of faith, rather a subjective understanding that rationalizes truth, subjecting God’s will to our will. Therefore, what the scripture means to me is infallible.

Ok, so when you say “infallible Scripture” you mean Sola Scriptura? Am I right?

This is worship of the Divine Logos or the Divine Word, the book, i.e. the Bible. I think I got this notion from reading St. Francis de Sales, but maybe it was Pope Benedict - I can’t recall.

The Catholic rule of faith is the eight principles I listed, but Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition are a special concomitant and concurrent measures and rules of what we believe. What’s proved to be in Scripture must be validated in Tradition, and viscera.

and viscera?

That’s why in most papal epistles we find a scriptural proof and proof from Tradition. Scripture is a special case of Tradition being the written word of apostolic doctrine, the two can’t be separated. Both are important, both make up the ‘basis’ of our faith.

Agreed!

I’m sure this comes from St. Thomas - almost

Yes, but a virtuous faith leads to a Divine Charity. Because when we find God (a work in vertuos hope), and when we’ve, as it were, become one (a work of vertuous disipline in faith), our hope is realized, faith is justified we are redeemed and saved.

Thus faith moves to hope which changes to love of God - Don’t you get - THAT’s HIS PLAN, we become LOVING adopted sons of God.

You gott’a Love a God with a sense of humor!!! All you gotta do is Love the Father as a disciplined child e.g., “Yes, Father, thy will be done.”

This is why obedience is so important. It undoes what Adam did.

Juan

 

[De_Maria]

De Maria;7090587:

Scripture is inerrant: it records exactly what God desired to have recorded
Scripture is NOT infallible. Infallibility is a characteristic unique to a person. Infallibility deals with protection from communicating a falsehood. Scripture, per se, cannot guarantee that the one who reads, “Unless you are born of water and the Spirit…” will have communicated to them the intended true meaning of those words.

Great explanation! Thanks.

It does make sense, but we have to be careful in such conclusions. Remember that Jesus had 2 natures. His human nature and his divine nature are not one and the same. Jesus spoke of things (the exact time of the second coming) and said that “only the Father knows”. How are we to understand such things? Imperfectly, I’m afraid. It appears that in some sense perhaps Christs human nature was not privy to the omniscience of his divine nature, but, ultimately, we simply don’t know exactly how being fully human and fully divine “works”.

Maybe one day we’ll see Him as He truly is and not through a glass darkly.

Thanks for participating.

 

[De_Maria]

I think this is undoubtedly true.

The “definitions” not only differ between Catholics and non-Catholics but from person to person.

I would submit to you that a very small percentage of the Christian populaton believes literally in “faith alone.”

For many “faith alone” is practically identical to Catholic teaching. For others it is not even close.

Chuck

I think I understand what you guys are saying. But I don’t think we can draw the conclusion that doctrine is not important. Do you?