kneel or stand during "under my roof"?

[superamazingman]

GIRM:

Gestures and Bodily Posture

1. The gestures and bodily posture of both the Priest, the Deacon, and the ministers, and also of the people, must be conducive to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, to making clear the true and full meaning of its different parts, and to fostering the participation of all.[52] Attention must therefore be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and by the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common bodily posture, to be observed by all those taking part, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered together for the Sacred Liturgy, for it expresses the intentions and spiritual attitude of the participants and also fosters them.

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.

The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration.** The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise**.[53]

For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.

1. Among gestures are included also actions and processions, by which the Priest, with the Deacon and ministers, goes to the altar; the Deacon carries the Evangeliary or Book of the Gospels to the ambo before the proclamation of the Gospel; the faithful bring up the gifts and come forward to receive Communion. It is appropriate that actions and processions of this sort be carried out with decorum while the chants proper to them are sung, in accordance with the norms laid down for each.

Yes, I know about all that. I’m just saying I think I remember seeing that one is still free to kneel even if the bishop says stand. I’ll let you know if I find it.

 

[Phemie]

Yes, I know about all that. I’m just saying I think I remember seeing that one is still free to kneel even if the bishop says stand. I’ll let you know if I find it.

I don’t think the CDW said anything about this.

Cardinal Arinze gave his opinion in a talk but what he said is that the bishop can mandate standing at that time because the GIRM gives him that right. He cannot mandate standing after the reception of Communion because the GIRM says nothing about that.

 

[SMHW]

I don’t think the CDW said anything about this.

Cardinal Arinze gave his opinion in a talk but what he said is that the bishop can mandate standing at that time because the GIRM gives him that right. He cannot mandate standing after the reception of Communion because the GIRM says nothing about that.

Yes. The “exception” is for AFTER the reception of communion, not after after the Angus Dei.

I think part of the reason for the exception after the reception of communion is because we are more or less “in procession” during the time of the distribution of communion regardless of whether we are waiting at our place, moving toward the communion rail/person who is distributing communion, receiving communion (in whatever bodily position), moving back to our spots, waiting for others to finish receiving, etc. Since this commotion of activity kind of precludes a common posture (…unless we mandate that the postures while waiting, receiving and moving be the same --and I don’t know anyone who suggests we should all be on our knees while moving) it is reasonable to say that various postures are proper after one returns to our places.

 

[DeaconsSon87]

Our Archbishop has deferred the option to the individual pastors of the archdiocese’s parishes…most parishes kneel, some stand over here.

 

[MissRose73]

In my diocese, if there are no kneelers in the church, the custom is to stand. Otherwise, if kneelers are available, kneeling is the norm. I’ve never seen anyone kneel without the use of kneelers during that part, and I know that my bad knees could not do so without help of the kneeler.

 

[perro_sarnoso]

I’ve noticed that in the San Bernardino Diocese we stand during the " Lord I am not worthy to receive You". But in the San Diego Diocese we kneel. Is it up to the local Bishop?

Domine non sum dignum ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbum et sanabitur anima mea,…I kneel.

I don’t care what anyone says or thinks…I kneel.

 

[Phemie]

Domine non sum dignum ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbum et sanabitur anima mea,…I kneel.

I don’t care what anyone says or thinks…I kneel.

So if your bishop says ‘stand’ you disobey because you know better?

 

[perro_sarnoso]

So if your bishop says ‘stand’ you disobey because you know better?

If" if & buts" were candy and nuts, it would be christmas allyear round. I’ve yet to encounter a bishop, priest o deacon that di not appreciate the reverence and devotion shown to the Holy Eucharist.

 

[zab]

If" if & buts" were candy and nuts, it would be christmas allyear round. I’ve yet to encounter a bishop, priest o deacon that di not appreciate the reverence and devotion shown to the Holy Eucharist.

“ignorance is bliss”

 

[zab]

Our Archbishop has deferred the option to the individual pastors of the archdiocese’s parishes…most parishes kneel, some stand over here.

That doesn’t make sense to me, that if the bishop of your diocese has declared that the posture after the Great Amen is to stand, that he would give an option to individual parishes to kneel. I would be interested in seeing the bishop’s response to this.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

A decree by the bishop to stand during the Ecce Agnus Dei isn’t a matter of conscience, since it’s not a sin, so it is by no means equivalent to the HHS mandate.

notwithstanding that civic duties and rights of U.S. citizens are not at all equivalent to our duties as Catholics

 

[zab]

Yes, I know about all that. I’m just saying I think I remember seeing that one is still free to kneel even if the bishop says stand. I’ll let you know if I find it.

The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments responded to a question regarding the posture for reception of Communion and the Discipline of the Sacraments. The U.S. Catholic bishops were supposed to set the posture. After many years of not setting a posture, they finally set the posture to stand, but some were so rigid in trying to enforce that posture that they refused to give Communion to people who knelt. That is when the CDWDS responded saying that people should not be denied Communion or even be accused of disobedience if they knelt to receive Communion. And upon returning from Communion, the posture should not be so rigidly set that people cannot choose to kneel or sit.
The topic of this thread is about the posture after the Agnus Dei (When the priest says, “Behold the Lamb of God…” and the people respond “Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof…”) The G.I.R.M. states that the diocesan bishop “may determine that the people should stand after the Agnus Dei…” There is no mention of an option of posture at that time or a correction allowing people to kneel.

 

[zab]

That doesn’t make sense to me, that if the bishop of your diocese has declared that the posture after the Great Amen is to stand, that he would give an option to individual parishes to kneel. I would be interested in seeing the bishop’s response to this.

I meant to remain standing after the Agnus Dei

 

[zab]

We have a few people in our parish that will kneel after the Agnus Dei. And it seems as time goes on there have been a few more to follow including at least one family with children. I’m just wondering what the parent says to convince her children to kneel when everyone else is standing? Surely the children must question why they are doing something that most people are not doing.

 

[Irishgal49]

Yes.

(But the default in the United States is kneeling if the bishop does not say otherwise.)

I am attending two churches in the same Diocese; one stands, one kneels. I have a feeling the one church got special permission.

 

[superamazingman]

I am attending two churches in the same Diocese; one stands, one kneels. I have a feeling the one church got special permission.

I have a stronger feeling the one church is being disobedient. My old parish was, and I knew for a fact they didn’t get an exception.

 

[Phemie]

I have a stronger feeling the one church is being disobedient. My old parish was, and I knew for a fact they didn’t get an exception.

It’s quite possible that one parish always knelt and when the bishop decided that in his diocese the norm would be to stand, he still allowed those parishes that had always knelt to keep on doing so.

 

[superamazingman]

It’s quite possible that one parish always knelt and when the bishop decided that in his diocese the norm would be to stand, he still allowed those parishes that had always knelt to keep on doing so.

Very true.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

It’s quite possible that one parish always knelt and when the bishop decided that in his diocese the norm would be to stand, he still allowed those parishes that had always knelt to keep on doing so.

Very true.

Indeed that is all likely true, but just a friendly observation from an Eastern Catholic brother - it always seems when there is an option to deviate from a stated norm, and exceptions are then also made, that the opportunity for enrichment then becomes diluted at best, and a source of confusion at worse. There is a similar situation in my own EC Church, so I say this with some sympathy.

I would just encourage all to try to understand the merits of each option in this case, and to see the choice made by your diocesan bishop to be instructional in terms of what he intends to emphasize. I realize that kneeling in this case was a long-time norm, one adopted in many Eastern Catholic Churches as well, but there is history and meaning associated with both kneeling and standing at this time.

 

[Faithdancer]

Here is Cardinal Arinze speaking on posture during the Consecration. He does not specifically address the period of time including and after the Agnus Dei, but he is nevertheless, as always, passionately intense and highly logical: youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM

I am also in the Diocese of San Bernardino. There is one parish where everyone always kneels immediately after the Agnus Dei- this is, not coincidentally, the only parish where the EF Mass is celebrated. There are some parishes where some kneel and some don’t. In the majority of parishes I’ve visited, the congregation stands. If the bishop expressly required us to stand, however, then I wouldn’t see anyone kneeling even at the parish where the EF Mass is celebrated. Therefore, the Bishop of San Bernardino must not have mandated standing. I always kneel when possible, although if it’s a very small congregation at a weekday morning Mass in a small chapel, I remain standing so as not to be a distraction to others.