kneel or stand during "under my roof"?

[curlycool89]

By contrast, the CCCB, did not request such an adaptation but left it as ‘where it is the custom is is laudable that it be retained’.

And where I am we stand, while in Vancouver they kneel for example (but that’s just Vancouver for you). All the guys here in the seminary stand.

Meanwhile, nobody gets up in arms about and nobody calls each other heretics are makes accusations that they don’t respect Jesus in the Eucharist or anything like that.

Yes, I know about all that. I’m just saying I think I remember seeing that one is still free to kneel even if the bishop says stand. I’ll let you know if I find it.

I believe that clarification was for after reception of communion (the GIRM says to stand I believe, but the CDW said it didn’t exclude kneeling or sitting). But again, this applied to after reception of communion.

 

[Seeker1961]

Well, I mean, seriously?

If “at the name of Jesus every knee shall bend on heaven, on earth, and under the earth”, how much more when the Blessed Sacrament, Jesus Himself, is presented to us?

Every time the Body of Christ is lifted up by the priest, kneeling is most appropriate (and sitting down when kneeling is not possible due to medical reasons).

Realize that if God had manifested His presence and was not mercifully veiled by the Host, we would literally die of awe…but the fact that we only see the Host does not diminish in a bit God’s greatness and infinite wonderfulness.

That is how I was taught as well. From the moment of consecration until the tabernacle door is closed we are on our knees-with the exception of course for those in line to receive. Thankfully, I’ve never been in a diocese where this is not done.

I’ve been in churches where people do not return to kneeling after communion, or sit back before the tabernacle door is closed-but at my parish here in FL nearly everyone kneels.

 

[zab]

… If the bishop expressly required us to stand, however, then I wouldn’t see anyone kneeling even at the parish where the EF Mass is celebrated. Therefore, the Bishop of San Bernardino must not have mandated standing.

A Google search revealed that in the diocese of San Bernardino, the posture after the Agnus Dei is to remain standing.

1. In the Diocese of San Bernardino, we will remain standing after the Agnus Dei until after we come back from
   receiving communion. When you arrive back at your pew you may stand, sit, or kneel. Those who do not receive
   communion may kneel or sit during the Communion Procession. Those who are elderly or not able to stand for some other reason may sit or kneel. home.catholicweb.com/sbworship/files/key_points_GIRM.pdf

 

[curlycool89]

That is how I was taught as well. From the moment of consecration until the tabernacle door is closed we are on our knees-with the exception of course for those in line to receive. Thankfully, I’ve never been in a diocese where this is not done.

Are you saying that you are still kneeling after the Great Amen until the Agnus Dei (during the Our Father and sign of peace)? Because the rubrics for that section (if I’m remembering right) clearly state that you are standing at that point.

I always find it funny that people somehow think there’s this direct one-to-one and exclusive relationship between kneeling and reverence. I wonder what they’d say if we told them that in the Eastern Churches the custom is (and has been forever) to stand during the consecration.

 

[Seeker1961]

Are you saying that you are still kneeling after the Great Amen until the Agnus Dei (during the Our Father and sign of peace)? Because the rubrics for that section (if I’m remembering right) clearly state that you are standing at that point.

I always find it funny that people somehow think there’s this direct one-to-one and exclusive relationship between kneeling and reverence. I wonder what they’d say if we told them that in the Eastern Churches the custom is (and has been forever) to stand during the consecration.

We kneel in reverence from the end of the Angus Dei, pardon my imprecision.

And yes, I do believe kneeling is more reverent, maybe because the Bible says that “every knee shall bow”, maybe because that’s the way I was raised-but that is what I believe.

As always-your mileage may vary.

 

[curlycool89]

And yes, I do believe kneeling is more reverent, maybe because the Bible says that “every knee shall bow”, maybe because that’s the way I was raised-but that is what I believe.

So when then bishops are saying to stand, you are accusing them of telling you to be less reverent then? Including the Vatican, where the rubric of standing originates from?

“That’s what I believe” is a buzzword for relativist beliefs.

The bishops have said (by implication) that it’s no less reverent to not kneel (especially considering that the kneeling after the Agnus Dei is largely an American innovation. An organic development if you will), which is in opposition to what you say. Given that there is a such a thing as objective truth and these 2 statements are in opposition, one of these statements must be false. Given that the bishops have been entrusted as the supreme teachers of the faith and that the rubric for standing comes from the Vatican itself, I am inclined to believe that their statement is true, which by necessity means yours is false.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I always find it funny that people somehow think there’s this direct one-to-one and exclusive relationship between kneeling and reverence. I wonder what they’d say if we told them that in the Eastern Churches the custom is (and has been forever) to stand during the consecration.

In Byzantine tradition, when we kneel, we really kneel:



After Vespers on Great and Holy Friday (a/k/a Good Friday), the faithful approach the Holy Shroud for veneration. You will note that the physically able faithful aside the first few rows of pews are already on their knees, and will approach the Holy Shroud literally on their knees (in the old days, everyone in the aisle would be on their knees). No kneelers. Carpeted flooring if we’re lucky.

On days of Pascha (the Paschal season and every Sunday), we stand acknowledging the truimph over death that is the glorious Resurrection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Is that not reverence?

 

[paperwight66]

l (especially considering that the kneeling after the Agnus Dei is largely an American innovation., .

Not at all. We have always done it in the UK, AFAIK.

 

[Phemie]

Not at all. We have always done it in the UK, AFAIK.

The universal norm, per the GIRM, has been standing from the Mystery of Faith to the end of Mass since 1975.

But that was one change that was not enforced in many places. The US got an adaptation to permit kneeling and it was imposed on all dioceses until the mid 90s, at which point the USCCB allowed bishops to decide for their own diocese.

Posture can vary greatly from parish to parish even within the same diocese and within the same town. That’s why if I visit the next nearest town one parish kneels for everything and one parish doesn’t kneel at all.

The problem is that the GIRM is largely ignored, if the people even know about it. I was involved in liturgy for probably 20 years before I found out that such a document existed. It was never mentioned and people made up their own rules.

 

[agw123]

That is how I was taught as well. From the moment of consecration until the tabernacle door is closed we are on our knees-with the exception of course for those in line to receive. Thankfully, I’ve never been in a diocese where this is not done.

I’ve been in churches where people do not return to kneeling after communion, or sit back before the tabernacle door is closed-but at my parish here in FL nearly everyone kneels.

Assuming you can see the tabernacle. A lot of the newer “modern” churches dont have the tabernacle in the sacristry so its impossible to see when the door is closed.

The norm in our church is to kneel until priest or deacon finishes the purification of the chalices.

 

[paperwight66]

Assuming you can see the tabernacle. A lot of the newer “modern” churches dont have the tabernacle in the sacristry so its impossible to see when the door is closed.

The norm in our church is to kneel until priest or deacon finishes the purification of the chalices.

Oops. Sanctuary, not sacristy (which is where preist gets vested, albs kept etc.)

 

[Seeker1961]

Assuming you can see the tabernacle. A lot of the newer “modern” churches dont have the tabernacle in the sacristry so its impossible to see when the door is closed.

The norm in our church is to kneel until priest or deacon finishes the purification of the chalices.

In my old parish in NJ, you couldn’t see the tabernacle, but you followed the Priest. When he sat down, we got off our knees-he could see the tabernacle and knew when it was closed.

 

[Seeker1961]

So when then bishops are saying to stand, you are accusing them of telling you to be less reverent then? Including the Vatican, where the rubric of standing originates from?

“That’s what I believe” is a buzzword for relativist beliefs.

The bishops have said (by implication) that it’s no less reverent to not kneel (especially considering that the kneeling after the Agnus Dei is largely an American innovation. An organic development if you will), which is in opposition to what you say. Given that there is a such a thing as objective truth and these 2 statements are in opposition, one of these statements must be false. Given that the bishops have been entrusted as the supreme teachers of the faith and that the rubric for standing comes from the Vatican itself, I am inclined to believe that their statement is true, which by necessity means yours is false.

It’s my opinion. It doesn’t matter to me whether you think it’s true or false. As I said earlier, I am happy that I have always lived in areas where the Bishops have promoted kneeling. If I were to attend a Mass where standing was the norm, that is what I would do, but I would still hold the opinion that kneeling is more reverent.

 

[agw123]

Oops. Sanctuary, not sacristy (which is where preist gets vested, albs kept etc.)

My bad… interchanged the words.

 

[Stylites]

I’ve noticed that in the San Bernardino Diocese we stand during the " Lord I am not worthy to receive You". But in the San Diego Diocese we kneel. Is it up to the local Bishop?

Yes. A person can stand and be reverent and focused, or kneel while the mind is wandering and distracted and puffed up with false humility. Is one better than the other just because it is an outside posture?

 

[Seeker1961]

Yes. A person can stand and be reverent and focused, or kneel while the mind is wandering and distracted and puffed up with false humility. Is one better than the other just because it is an outside posture?

What if kneeling helps the person stay reverent and focused and standing allows their mind to wander?

 

[superamazingman]

What if kneeling helps the person stay reverent and focused and standing allows their mind to wander?

I find that exact thing to happen for me. Of course, kneeling can lead to false humility and pride at first, but after you get used to it, it’s not so much like that.

 

[superamazingman]

Yes. A person can stand and be reverent and focused, or kneel while the mind is wandering and distracted and puffed up with false humility. Is one better than the other just because it is an outside posture?

It’s not that outside postures are everything, but they certainly hold value, otherwise the church wouldn’t place emphasis on certain postures at different times.

 

[Seeker1961]

I find that exact thing to happen for me. Of course, kneeling can lead to false humility and pride at first, but after you get used to it, it’s not so much like that.

It only leads to that if you are focusing on what everyone else in church is thinking about you. I think you have to reach a certain age before that stops mattering though, sadly.

 

[SMHW]

What if kneeling helps the person stay reverent and focused and standing allows their mind to wander?

Well then the person should practice kneeling if if it is allowed/appropriate for the situation.

If kneeling is not proscribed or would be a stumbling block for others then the person should make the best of of whatever position is allowed/makes sense. :doh2: