Kneel? Stand? What would you do?

[Kelly]

Mysty101:

Intersteing to note the Holy Father’s funeral.

I agree, although the television coverage did not pan the crowd during the consecration, the deacons and alter servers did indeed kneel during the consecration, even though the Mass was held outside of St. Peter’s in the square!! Good for them to do the right thing.

 

[Mysty101]

Deacons & Altar Servers? Were any provisions made for even the front rows of the congregation? Obviously it is not a priority. If it is not a priority for a Papal Funeral, I really wouldn’t be too concerned at a regular Mass where the Pastor thought there was a good reason to stand.

And I did watch the distribution of Communion—not one person kneeled, and I think I only saw one give the sign of reverence, which could easily have been done.

 

[Kelly]

Mysty101:

Deacons & Altar Servers? Were any provisions made for even the front rows of the congregation? Obviously it is not a priority. If it is not a priority for a Papal Funeral, I really wouldn’t be too concerned at a regular Mass where the Pastor thought there was a good reason to stand.
.

I have watched the funeral Mass three times now, once by myself, once with my mother, and once with my family. They did not show whether or not “provisions” were made for kneeling for the people in the front rows, they didn’t even show these people during the funeral, unless CNN or one of the non-cable networks had a different feed than Fox or EWTN.

My point was that “provisions” such as kneelers do not have to be provided in order for someone to kneel for the consecration. Have you ever attended a Mass in Italy or France or the Phillipines or Nigeria? I have many times, people manage to kneel for the consecration on the bare marble floors of the cathedrals and churches. I have also attended Masses in this country held in an auditorium with 25,000++ people in attendance for the feast of Corpus Christi and everyone with the exception of the infirmed knelt on the floor, amazingly without provisions or complaints, for the consecration.

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy the “pastoral reasons” to insist that kneeling not be done in the average parish. Nor do I buy that this is for the spiritual good of the individual community at large. Instructing and insisting that the faithful not kneel when our Lord is being sacrificed (in an unbloody manner!) on the altar is just another way to diminsh the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[Kelly]

Mysty101:

And I did watch the distribution of Communion—not one person kneeled, and I think I only saw one give the sign of reverence, which could easily have been done.

These were probably all the people from California!

 

[Mysty101]

Kelly:

My point was that “provisions” such as kneelers do not have to be provided in order for someone to kneel for the consecration. Have you ever attended a Mass in Italy or France or the Phillipines or Nigeria? I have many times, people manage to kneel for the consecration on the bare marble floors of the cathedrals and churches. I have also attended Masses in this country held in an auditorium with 25,000++ people in attendance for the feast of Corpus Christi and everyone with the exception of the infirmed knelt on the floor, amazingly without provisions or complaints, for the consecration.

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy the “pastoral reasons” to insist that kneeling not be done in the average parish. Nor do I buy that this is for the spiritual good of the individual community at large. Instructing and insisting that the faithful not kneel when our Lord is being sacrificed (in an unbloody manner!) on the altar is just another way to diminsh the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist .

First of all, I would like to clear up one thing. I am absolutely not against kneeling. As I have said many times, I have knelt, and bowed from a kneeling position. I genuflect on both knees (when they are functioning enough for me to get up ) before the exposed Blessed Sacrament.

What I am for is common sense, acting in unity with the congregation, and respecting the authority and decision of our lawful Shepherds. The extreme is the Papal funeral. I don’t think anyone feels that it was blatant abuse to stand during the Mass. So obviously this is not a grave matter in liturgical norms.

If the Bishop or Pastor tells me to stand, I will stand (I believe the rule is obedience takes priority in matters other than faith or morals). You can kneel when the option is offered, or during private worship. Public worshap (liturgy & sacraments) are to be done as instructed.

Again this is not a sinful matter (unless it becomes a matter of pride). It would not be a helpful attitude to disregard the decision and authority of the Shepherd, even in small matters—it developes bad habits. I personally would discuss it with the Pastor, and if I could not trust his decision or explanatin, I would either take the matter higher or change Parishes. I would not disrespect or disobey.

And as far as diminishing belief in the Real Presence—a bow before receiving reminds me far more than the disscomfort of kneeling, and standing with a bow at consecration, keeps my mind from wandering during the Consecration–I like the reminder at the sacred moment, but of course I kneel unless my back (I had back surgery a while ago) tells me to do otherwise.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Kelly:

Why should it matter if there are kneelers or not?

Why should it matter if we kneel or stand? Granted, I believe in uniformity, but the GIRM does not state that *only *kneeling is acceptable. Because they give an option for people to stand and to give a profound bow during the consecration implies that they are more interested in the uniformity of the congregation rather than it’s posture.

To me, it does not matter whether a person stands or kneels. And I am sure that the leadership in Rome doesn’t care either. If it were such an important issue, the Eastern Rites would be kneeling. As you know, they don’t kneel…they stand.

 

[Mysty101]

Hi,

We are speaking of the Roman right, hence the norms in the GIRM (with US adaptations for those of us in the US)

here’s what is instructed
Movements and Posture

1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

This does leave much leeway for a Bishop or Pastor, but not for the individual, who should do as instructed.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Mysty101:

This does leave much leeway for a Bishop or Pastor, but not for the individual, who should do as instructed.

I agree that the bishop and pastor have leeway. However, if a pastor instructs a parish to stand and give a profound bow, I will not go against the grain and kneel. Likewise, if I were in a parish where the pastor instructed the parishioners to kneel, I will not stand throughout. To me, the posture does not matter as long as you are following the GIRM.

Now, the problem is with the phrase “some other good reason”. It was thought that the new GIRM would clarify everything and get rid of all instances of ambiguity. The problem we now face is what the definition of a good reason is.

 

[chevalier]

I am not standing during the consecration. My mind is more inclined to observe local customs where they differ from my own, in so far as they are reasonable and licit, but I can’t imagine Catholics standing during consecration unless maybe in an imaginated culture in which kneeling has bad connotations and standing doesn’t.

I receive standing when the situation so requires, but I always struggle with myself whether I should kneel down and appear hollier-than-thou to some people, or if I should stand and dispose my heart rather than knees towards proper reverence for Our Lord.

 

[Mysty101]

pprimeau1976:

I agree that the bishop and pastor have leeway. However, if a pastor instructs a parish to stand and give a profound bow, I will not go against the grain and kneel. Likewise, if I were in a parish where the pastor instructed the parishioners to kneel, I will not stand throughout. To me, the posture does not matter as long as you are following the GIRM.

Now, the problem is with the phrase “some other good reason”. It was thought that the new GIRM would clarify everything and get rid of all instances of ambiguity. The problem we now face is what the definition of a good reason is.

I agree, sorry I did not make myself clear

“This does leave much leeway for a Bishop or Pastor, but not for the individual, who should do as instructed.” I did mean “as instructed by the celebrant”

 

[mosher]

Kneeling is the proper position. the GIRM makes proper dispensation from this but it is always left up to the individual when there is a proper situation where standing is a proper course of action.

 

[Mike_Dye]

My knees are so bad that I find it hard to kneel in our parish where kneeling is encouraged ,and we have kneeler’s ,however I would still try to kneel regardless I am sure at this point I could be sure to still get up. I suppose the day will come when I can’t kneel or genuflect but in my heart I will always kneel before my God
Mike

 

[Turtledove]

mosher:

Kneeling is the proper position. the GIRM makes proper dispensation from this but it is always left up to the individual when there is a proper situation where standing is a proper course of action.

Actually the GIRM does not give permission to kneel in the US. What it does is qualify the action to be taken when the norm is ignored. (the communicant cannot be denied Communion, and is to be instructed on the norm.) This is the whole discussion. Can a letter (quoted above) qualify a norm? (GIRM is the liturgical law) and what is the next step when the Communicant is instructed and also ignores the instruction of his Pastor?

 

[Turtledove]

Mike Dye:

My knees are so bad that I find it hard to kneel in our parish where kneeling is encouraged ,and we have kneeler’s ,however I would still try to kneel regardless I am sure at this point I could be sure to still get up. I suppose the day will come when I can’t kneel or genuflect but in my heart I will always kneel before my God
Mike

I believe this is one on the reasons for the standing for Holy Communion norm. Everyone who can kneel can also stand, but not everyone who can stand is able to kneel. The position in the pew does not disrupt the overall structure of the Mass, as does kneeling in the middle of the Communion procession.

Is kneeling for the reception of Holy Communion encouraged? If provisions are made for kneeling and there is a true option permitted, this is a viable solution.

 

[MarLee]

Something to think about: In “Living The Eucharist” by Fr. Shannon Collins, C.P.M. he mentions that the early desert fathers had a vision of the devil…in it he was dark, ugly, thin and had no knees…no knees upon which to kneel…he refused to bend low before God his creator…so says our new Pope in his book “Spirit of the Liturgy”!
This wonderful DVD is available free from Catholic Resource Center (www.CatholicRC.org)

Pax et Bonum!

 

[JeanneG]

Kielbasi:

I’d follow the lead of the other people there, kneeling when everyone else is standing, is calling attention to yourself as “more holy” than the rest.

I’m a kneeler - I feel self-conscious, not “more holy”. I believe I must show my adoration for my Lord, present on the altar - if there were room, I would lie on my face! I am so unworthy to stand in His presence!

 

[maggiec]

JeanneG:

Kielbasi:

I’d follow the lead of the other people there, kneeling when everyone else is standing, is calling attention to yourself as “more holy” than the rest.

I’m a kneeler - I feel self-conscious, not “more holy”. I believe I must show my adoration for my Lord, present on the altar - if there were room, I would lie on my face! I am so unworthy to stand in His presence!

Why is it that when we feel so full of love for our Lord we are afraid of what people think if we show our devotion? There have been times when I have been so moved that I would have gladly thrown myself on the floor in front of the Blessed Sacrament but felt it was “inapropriate” How could that be? Why are we so afraid to let our love show? So many questions…
maggiec

 

[space_ghost]

…i would kneel, but have no objection because other don’t…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Al_Masetti]

I went to Mass at a place where they had arranged the seats in such a way that the rows were so close together that it was physically impossible to kneel on the floor.

Really, though, the core issue is a steady erosion in the reverence for (and at) the Mass in particular and Catholicism in general.

My pet peeve (apparently not shared by anyone else) are the ushers who “escort” (or whatever the right word is) Communicants to the altar. In the alleged interest of eliminating traffic congestion, the ushers empty out each pew in turn at Communion time.

It used to be that if I wasn’t “disposed” to receive (i.e., if I was in a state of Mortal Sin), I would simply sit back and let the others climb over me. This was pretty common. In the days when fasting for three hours or fasting from midnight was the rule, very few people received Communion particularly at the later Masses.

And sometimes when a family had little babies, one spouse would hold the baby while the other went to Communion and then they would swap places when the first returned to the pew.

Anyway, with the ushers, it is grounds for unpleasantness if you receive Communion out of turn (as when parents take turns babysitting). If you elect to NOT receive, the ushers make a “fuss” and call attention to you, however subtly, and everybody looks at you as if to say, WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM???.

I was on the receiving end of this one day when I went to Mass Saturday night and drove to another city for a Sunday seminar. I got there early, enjoyed a hearty breakfast and went for a walk. Found a Catholic Church, went in, sat in the back to pray, and at Communion time stayed in my seat. EVERYONE STARED AT ME. Hey buddy, what’s your problem??? I felt like standing up and saying, “I just ate”.

In the old days, I suspect that a lot of people who practiced birth control attended Mass but declined to receive Communion. Faced with humiliation from the ushers and having too much respect for the Sacrament, they now simply stay away from Mass (and the Church) altogether.

Which may be why Mass attendance is down from 75% to 30%.

 

[Roman_Army]

**Try to get them to install kneelers and enforce kneeling and if they continue to be “liberal” report them to the Bishop. If the Bishop is “liberal” report him to the USCCB and the Congregation for the Doctrine of faith. Maybe then they’ll become more orthodox or face disciplinary action. But, most likely the pastor would try to fix the problem. Could you imagine getting excommunicated for refusing to kneel? :whacky: **