Kneeling -- a New Twist

[Pariah_Pirana]

Panis Angelicas:

Here is a little more help. The Vatican officials have known about the attempts to dilute the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for quite some time.

Pope John Paul II, in the foreward of Inaestimabile Donum, approved in 1980, stated:But these encouraging and positive aspects cannot suppress concern at the varied and frequent abuses being reported from different parts of the Catholic world: the confusion of roles, especially regarding the priestly ministry and the role of the laity (indiscriminate shared recitation of the Eucharistic Prayer, homilies given by lay people, lay people distributing Communion while the priests refrain from doing so); an increasing loss of the sense of the sacred (abandonment of liturgical vestments, the Eucharist celebrated outside church without real need, lack of reverence and respect for the Blessed Sacrament, etc.); misunderstanding of the ecclesial character of the Liturgy (the use of private texts, the proliferation of unapproved Eucharistic Prayers, the manipulation of the liturgical texts for social and political ends). In these cases we are face to face with a real falsification of the Catholic Liturgy: "One who offers worship to God on the Church’s behalf in a way contrary to that which is laid down by the Church with God-given authority and which is customary in the Church is guilty of falsification."

None of these things can bring good results. The consequences are – and cannot fail to be – the impairing of the unity of Faith and worship in the Church, doctrinal uncertainty, scandal and bewilderment among the People of God, and the near inevitability of violent reactions.

The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.” And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."

(My emphasis added.) So, you see, your pastor should take your concerns very seriously, as the Holy Father certainly did make his concerns clear over 25 years ago!

You don’t seem to understand. It does not help. They simply ignore the Church or say “those are only guidelines” (which they are not.)

 

[misericordie]

Pariah Pirana:

I have been an adult altar server at my parish for quite some time. The person in charge of scheduling and “training” altar servers said when serving, we could no longer kneel during the consecration, based on the (name removed by moderator)ut of a priest from another parish who claims to be a “liturgical specialist” (go figure…)

What?!? This is simply not right. I’m not infirm and there is plenty of space to kneel in the sanctuary in a very unobtrusive manner. After disregarding her directive I was eventually precluded from serving for a few months, but was recently placed back on the schedule – all without even a simple discussion or explanation, although the pastor finally said that kneeling was OK by him!

What hit me is that people often watch the altar server in order to assume the correct posture during Masses at funerals and weddings. I have seen an entire church of people standing until I knelt – then they followed suit.

Why would anyone try to go through so much trouble to keep altar servers from kneeling? This is creepy…

Sounds like that so called Liturgical specialist is going against the Vatican’s recent statements: See: “Redemptionis Sacramentum.”

 

[Exporter]

Pariah Pirana:

I have been an adult altar server at my parish for quite some time. The person in charge of scheduling and “training” altar servers said when serving, we could no longer kneel during the consecration, based on the (name removed by moderator)ut of a priest from another parish who claims to be a “liturgical specialist” (go figure…)

What?!? This is simply not right. I’m not infirm and there is plenty of space to kneel in the sanctuary in a very unobtrusive manner. After disregarding her directive I was eventually precluded from serving for a few months, but was recently placed back on the schedule – all without even a simple discussion or explanation, although the pastor finally said that kneeling was OK by him!

What hit me is that people often watch the altar server in order to assume the correct posture during Masses at funerals and weddings. I have seen an entire church of people standing until I knelt – then they followed suit.

Why would anyone try to go through so much trouble to keep altar servers from kneeling? This is creepy…

---

Sir, I dont care what “the other prople” do: This man is going to kneel at the Consecration. Last Sunday I didnt offer my hands when “they all hold hands” for the Our Father. I did as I was taught as kid, Hanssds in front ,fingers out. The ruberics for that posture with the hands out as if begging IS ONLY FOR THE PRRIEST, for goodness sakes.

I agree with you that what we did in 1940, 1960 and 1980 was valid, is valid and in full force.

You are very correct in your allusion to Weddings and Funerals to use the Alter Boys as a guide.

For them (who?) to take you off the list because you kneeled reminds me of Satan’s Smoke seeping into the Church. Sure they say, Jesus is not worth my kneeling - oh what “they” say.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

misericordie:

Sounds like that so called Liturgical specialist is going against the Vatican’s recent statements: See: “Redemptionis Sacramentum.”

And what value is your comment?

I’m an educated man. I know right from wrong – I have read the GIRM, RS, the CofC, etc., but that makes little difference if my pastor is INdifferent. Sure, I can raise hell – but I can only do it so many times, before my pastor stops listening. I can even go over my bishop’s head if it’s an extremely serious abuse, but by an large they are NOT the sort of thing the Holy See is going to get involved with.

Next?

 

[netmilsmom]

Pariah Pirana:

I have a very important (to me) follow-up question. I have made my peace with this person. I have forgiven her and don’t harbor any grudges.

At the same time, I do my best to avoid this person. I just don’t want to get caught-up in this sort of malarky again. If I was ever told to do something wrong again, I would ignore her and insist that we have the discussion in front of our pastor.

It’s very creepy even talking to people like her, given how she has treated others – in a Christian environment no less. Something is amiss and it sorta scares me…

I agree with you. Discuss things in front of the Pastor only.
Creepy though she may be, Christ told us to turn the other cheek, not set yourself up to have that cheek slapped.

She seems to be a control person and maybe evil has gotten into her. The easiest way for him to control the people is through the church.

 

[tcreek1]

Adoremus Bulletin
Online Edition - Vol. VIII, No. 8: November 2002
The Theology of Kneeling
From Cardinal Ratzinger’s The Spirit of the Liturgy

The theology of kneeling is explained by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in the following excerpt from a chapter, “The Body and the Liturgy”, in The Spirit of the Liturgy, published by Ignatius Press in 2000.

Here is the Cardinal’s closing statement from the article:

The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[misericordie]

**************************************************************************
Sir, I dont care what “the other prople” do: This man is going to kneel at the Consecration. Last Sunday I didnt offer my hands when “they all hold hands” for the Our Father. I did as I was taught as kid, Hanssds in front ,fingers out. The ruberics for that posture with the hands out as if begging IS ONLY FOR THE PRRIEST, for goodness sakes.

I agree with you that what we did in 1940, 1960 and 1980 was valid, is valid and in full force.

You are very correct in your allusion to Weddings and Funerals to use the Alter Boys as a guide.

For them (who?) to take you off the list because you kneeled reminds me of Satan’s Smoke seeping into the Church. Sure they say, Jesus is not worth my kneeling - oh what “they” say.

I am totally against holding hands for the Our Father. However, to not offer the hand when some person who may not know as much as you in this seems to go against Charity which is above any ittle minor detail of practice. The same is true for not shaking hands during the Our Father: NOT to do so would be UNcharitable if the poor person nenxt, in back or in front of us were to offer the sign of peace. Would seem pharasaic actually. If we don’t agree with it, go to the Vatican, or local Bishop and LET THEM REMOVE THIS.