Kneeling at Communion vs. Standing with hand

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I do not agree with the assertion that the rector might be imposing this rule to get seminarians ready for when they are ordained. This is not a practice which takes six or seven years to perfect. The difference, traditionally, is that a priest’s hands are consecrated and therefore permitted to touch the sacred species - what St. John Paul II called “A privilege of the ordained” (Dominicae Cenae, 11, February 24, 1980).

While I certainly do not wish to encourage disobedience - and, believe me, I have been in similar situations with my superiors - not even a seminary rector can legitimately impose something on his seminarians which is contrary to the norms of the Church. The norm of the Church for the reception of Holy Communion is that it is to be received on the tongue - the fact that Communion in the hand has become widespread has not changed this. The same letter of St. John Paul, quoted above, laments the practice of refusing communicants to receive on the tongue: “It also happens, on occasion, that the free choice of those who prefer to continue the practice of receiving the Eucharist on the tongue is not taken into account in those places where the distribution of Communion in the hand has been authorized.” (D.C.11).

Sadly, even though it pains you - as it would me - you may well have to obey the rector in order to get ordained. You yourself will have to discern whether it is true or false obedience to follow your superior’s directive (see, for example, Summa Theologica II,ii,q.104). I do not believe that you are being disobedient if you follow the norms of the Church. However, I think the real question here is, how much are you willing to suffer (and “obey”) in order to get ordained for this particular diocese/congregation?

Precisely why historically reception by hand was forbidden and in “ye olden days of yore” when they “received via hand not tongue” they actually received in houseling cloth which was then into their mouths in such a way that the hands of the laity never touched the species

 

[Lormar]

I thought a Catholic cannot be forced to receive Holy Communion one way or the other, and that reception on the tongue is still the norm; Holy Communion in the hand is by indult?

 

[ProVobis]

I was thinking along the same lines. Is this Catholic teaching?

Let me clarify. I’m not questioning the obedience part. I’d have a losing argument there. I am however questioning the “explanation” given. Does the “explanation” actually have to be believed? I don’t see anything infallible or absolute about it.

 

[ProVobis]

Precisely why historically reception by hand was forbidden and in “ye olden days of yore” when they “received via hand not tongue” they actually received in houseling cloth which was then into their mouths in such a way that the hands of the laity never touched the species

Good to know from a historical perspective. I’ve heard and read similar stories.

 

[dans0622]

Let me clarify. I’m not questioning the obedience part. I’d have a losing argument there. I am however questioning the “explanation” given. Does the “explanation” actually have to be believed? I don’t see anything infallible or absolute about it.

It’s something I’d expect to hear at one of my *alma maters *(sorry about that Latin), that is located somewhere on the south side of Chicago…but not at another, located some distance north of Chicago.

Anyway, I don’t find it to be very persuasive.

Dan

 

[CatholicRaven]

In this case, the Rector’s opinion does matter because he is entrusted with their formation. He should be afforded the respect to know what is best for his seminarian’s formation at this moment.

I hope people would have more prudence when expressing their opinion when they themselves have not gone thru formation

You are right, I am not an expert, and have not gone through formation. However, the OP asked what others would think. If I missed where “only those who have gone through formation” was implied or stated, I apologize and withdraw my comments.

However, I did not say what you have implied I said. My words and yours are not contradictory. Please read the entire comment and keep my words in context next time. Thanks.

 

[CatholicRaven]

Actually, receiving on the hand is the practice in the vast majority of countries round the world.

Source, please?

Simply research on the various Bishops’ websites and you will find it is allowed, or else go by the results of a poll here on CAF at least ten years ago where posters recounted their experiences travelling. The only places posters had not observed CITH (Communion in the hand, as opposed to COTT - Communion on the tongue) were in a diocese in Brazil and a particular parish in Italy.

Being “allowed,” or even being a popular practice, is not the same as being the norm. And I would never assume that a poll on CAF (or any internet website) is going to reflect accurate results for the entire Catholic Church.

 

[babochka]

“ye olden days of yore” when they “received via hand not tongue” they actually received in houseling cloth which was then into their mouths in such a way that the hands of the laity never touched the species

Is there certain historical knowledge of this, or is it something that we know happened in at least in a particular time or place, but we don’t know about others? I’m thinking that this is information that might not have been preserved from antiquity.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I thought a Catholic cannot be forced to receive Holy Communion one way or the other, and that reception on the tongue is still the norm; Holy Communion in the hand is by indult?

I believe a bishop can ban reception by hand

Is there certain historical knowledge of this, or is it something that we know happened in at least in a particular time or place, but we don’t know about others? I’m thinking that this is information that might not have been preserved from antiquity.

The houseling cloth is known as is that the concept of the laity handling the Body and Blood of Christ would have been pretty much considered apostasy in the Middle Ages

 

[Lormar]

I believe a bishop can ban reception by hand

Do you mean on the tongue:? I’ve heard of bishops suspending the practice in their diocese for a time during some type of epidemic.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Do you mean on the tongue:? I’ve heard of bishops suspending the practice in their diocese for a time during some type of epidemic.

No, I mean communion in hand, AFAIK there is absolutely no grounds permitted to ban communion on the tongue whereas reception in hand is via indult which is an exception which can be revoked.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I thought a Catholic cannot be forced to receive Holy Communion one way or the other, and that reception on the tongue is still the norm; Holy Communion in the hand is by indult?

It is not my intention to continue to intervene in this thread.

I feel obliged though to return to say that several people are postulating things that simply do not apply in this situation, the post I am responding to being a case in point.

For a Catholic lay person, when s/he approaches the sacrament of the Eucharist, s/he may receive on the tongue or, where the indult is operative, in the hand. It is the person’s choice. They may also receive under one species (the Host) or, if offered, they may receive under both or they may receive from the chalice alone.

We are not talking about that situation here. We are talking about a seminarian who is in formation for an institute of perfection – and the guidelines are different. Be it the Fraternity of Saint Peter, the Missionaries of Charity, or various other institutes, by choosing to be part of them, one accepts the limitations that the constitutions or the superiors impose relative to the liturgy and one’s participation in it.

The latitude that laity enjoy are not shared by all consecrated in all institutes just as privileges afforded to those in consecrated life are not extended to the laity – and that has to be taken into account. The ability to adapt to imposed restriction is part of the discernment of both the individual who aspires to consecrated life as well as superiors and formation directors in the institutes.

Thus, certain options that are perfectly legitimate for those who do not belong to said institute do not apply to persons for the time they are members of the institute. Of course, if they choose to leave the institute, they are no longer bound by such obligations – but they also cease being part of the institute.

Moreover, the decisions that one who is in formation makes in the external forum are legitimate grounds for formators to arrive at conclusions about a candidate’s aptness both for the institute and for Holy Order – especially one who is at the very beginning of the formation cycle.

The young man in question has to weigh a variety of factors that various posters are either not giving due weight to or are ignorant of. I post this as one who was a formator earlier in my priesthood.

The matter is best addressed by this young man with his spiritual director. People can offer their own views and reflections on receiving the Eucharist but, ultimately, this is a matter internal to the institute of perfection and the one who aspires to definitive incorporation and eventual ordination.

As one poster rightly and wisely said, a maximum of prudence is called for when one proposes things that may actually cause a life altering course and one should not be blithe to offer opinions the implications of which one may not be in a position to actually judge.

 

[CB_Catholic]

IMO, anyone in formation should not be posting anything expressing their doubts about what they are required to do on a public forum. This is a matter to be discussed with their superior/spiritual director privately. A Seminarian, as Father said, owes his obedience to his superiors, and when ordained either to his Bishop or Religious superior. Promises are made and vows taken regarding obedience, and publicly questioning one’s superior is unseemly

OP, I hope you will learn to be more discreet in the future. CAF is not the place to question the judgments of your superior. Start reading the lives of the Saints and see their humility and obedience and see how they lived out their vow of obedience, even under unjust conditions. They knew what was pleasing to Jesus. Everything that Father wrote is wise and from an experienced priest who knows far more than anyone else who has posted. Listen to him.

God bless you and guide you in your formation.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

You do realise, I assume, that what you are counseling is legitimate grounds for a seminarian to be dismissed from the seminary?

This is not a matter of a layman in his parish. This is a seminarian under his rector – in which everything you say and everything you do and every action you take is evaluated by the formation team, led by the rector, in terms of your suitability to remain and progress in formation as well as for eventual ordination.

A seminarian will confront many of these types of issues over the years of his formation. And the seminarian must decide for himself as to his adaptability because he will have to adapt to far more than the posture or method of receiving Communion…both to successfully complete seminary and over the course of his priestly life.

To the original poster: This is a moment of discernment for you. If an issue as slight as this is causing you a crisis, you need to speak with your spiritual director. Those who have not themselves been in formation are very poorly placed to offer you any counsel on a matter of this sort. I will also point out that receiving standing and in the hand is what is normative for the deacon and for one who has the stable ministry of acolyte.

I would rather be dismissed from the seminary than be forced to receive Our Lord in an irreverent manner. I wouldn’t want to undergo my formation in a seminary that would mandate such a thing anyway.

 

[KnightOfSPUD]

OP, I hope you will learn to be more discreet in the future. CAF is not the place to question the judgments of your superior. Start reading the lives of the Saints and see their humility and obedience and see how they lived out their vow of obedience, even under unjust conditions. They knew what was pleasing to Jesus. Everything that Father wrote is wise and from an experienced priest who knows far more than anyone else who has posted. Listen to him.

God bless you and guide you in your formation.

Thank you! I just needed to know what other people thought of my situation. When I first posted it, I was in deep spiritual turmoil. I just talked it over with my SD, our talk went along the lines of what you said about the Saints, basically, he talked about the little martyrdoms in life.

I would rather be dismissed from the seminary than be forced to receive Our Lord in an irreverent manner. I wouldn’t want to undergo my formation in a seminary that would mandate such a thing anyway.

Please pray for me. Last week I have discerned that the seminary I entered was not for me. I still feel the call to the Presbyterate. I am now in a position to choose the Diocesan, Jesuits, or Society of Saint Paul. My congregation’s charism is just too radical for me.

To everybody reading this…
Pray for my vocation that I may be in the right life

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Please pray for me. Last week I have discerned that the seminary I entered was not for me. I still feel the call to the Presbyterate. I am now in a position to choose the Diocesan, Jesuits, or Society of Saint Paul. My congregation’s charism is just too radical for me.

To everybody reading this…
Pray for my vocation that I may be in the right life

I will pray for you.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Thank you! I just needed to know what other people thought of my situation. When I first posted it, I was in deep spiritual turmoil. I just talked it over with my SD, our talk went along the lines of what you said about the Saints, basically, he talked about the little martyrdoms in life.

Please pray for me. Last week I have discerned that the seminary I entered was not for me. I still feel the call to the Presbyterate. I am now in a position to choose the Diocesan, Jesuits, or Society of Saint Paul. My congregation’s charism is just too radical for me.

To everybody reading this…
Pray for my vocation that I may be in the right life

**

When I first posted it, I was in deep spiritual turmoil.

**
I am not so old that I do not remember, with much affect, what it is to know this ordeal of turmoil when one is as young as you. Be assured, I know this spiritual turmoil is very deeply felt. In the moment that it is lived, it can seem so overwhelming. It is only with the passage of years that one can put it into its proper perspective and see that it is the loving hand of God that is writing an important page in the story of one’s life. Be at peace.

I would like you to know, my son, I pray for you with a very glad heart. I am glad I met you here in this forum. If indeed the Lord is calling you to priesthood and/or to consecrated life, I pray that you so cooperate with His grace and so correspond with His voice that you will find yourself precisely there to where He has called you and in none other place. And if it is to another vocation He calls you, I pray He so shows you that there only may you find yourself.

There is no shame in trying one’s vocation in an institute that requires tremendous sacrifice and discerning that you are, in fact, called to another place. You will always have the consolation of knowing that you perceived a call, you answered the call, and that you and the officials of the Church discerned that yours is simply a different path. It is better to find out now in happiness than later in sorrow. Please know that and be assured of that. You can look back knowing that you were faithful to what you perceived as God’s will.

What is sad is when someone forces their own will upon a situation rather than openly discerning the Holy Will of God.

May the Lord bless and guide those who will oversee your formation and the discernment of your vocation. May the Spirit of Wisdom alone guide and direct them.
*Originally Posted by Confiteor Deo
I would rather be dismissed from the seminary than be forced to receive Our Lord in an irreverent manner. I wouldn’t want to undergo my formation in a seminary that would mandate such a thing anyway.
*
You will forgive me but I cannot leave this matter unanswered. As a lay person, you have every right to receive Holy Communion in the posture of your choice, according to what the Church allows.

I gladly say that there are institutes of consecrated life – and other places – where those of a certain disposition may live out their spirituality, whatever form it takes as long as it is approved by the Church. God be praised.

You do not, however, have the right to say that those who choose from what has been ascribed as a legitimate option a choice you would not is thereby acting irreverently. Then you are accusing the Church of irreverence to her Lord. I take great exception to that. Also because I have known many of great holiness who have chosen to conform themselves to an accepted practice or even a form of the liturgy, in spite of their own personal preference, precisely because it was a moment of self-sacrifice and self-renunciation.

You may find this distasteful. That is your prerogative. When I was looking at issues of formation, where a young man may be sent far from his family for years on end, far from his native land, asked to give up his own language and his own culture in order to embrace a mission that he would never choose – all the while doing so with the real prospect that this was going to be his life for possibly the remainder of his years on earth or certainly the vast bulk of them. That he may die on foreign mission and be buried in his adopted land. And he was called to embrace that not reluctantly but with the willingness that it was as if God Himself had asked it, through the voice his superior, and that he was honored to accept all of this as a divine gift – if that was the value and the heroicity of obedience that this form of vowed life demanded and yet he was not able to even choose a method of receiving Communion that was perfectly and legitimately acceptable but not according to his personally preference…well, yes, I am sorry but that was something which I looked at with a very severe eye because it told me something very important that I needed to know. Let us be perfectly clear. Receiving Communion standing and in the hand is not a matter of doing something wrong or irreverent. I have very sadly seen irreverence in both modes of receiving. And if you either do not or cannot understand that, then I really can’t say more.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

IMO, anyone in formation should not be posting anything expressing their doubts about what they are required to do on a public forum. This is a matter to be discussed with their superior/spiritual director privately. A Seminarian, as Father said, owes his obedience to his superiors, and when ordained either to his Bishop or Religious superior. Promises are made and vows taken regarding obedience, and publicly questioning one’s superior is unseemly

OP, I hope you will learn to be more discreet in the future. CAF is not the place to question the judgments of your superior. Start reading the lives of the Saints and see their humility and obedience and see how they lived out their vow of obedience, even under unjust conditions. They knew what was pleasing to Jesus. Everything that Father wrote is wise and from an experienced priest who knows far more than anyone else who has posted. Listen to him.

God bless you and guide you in your formation.

I thank you for your very kind word. I hope you will forgive me if I use your sage comment to add a remark of my own to conclude my unintended involvement in all of this. I try, as best I can, to find the good that can be had, whatever the circumstance…and do so also here.

I am of a generation that, for this to play out on the Internet and so publicly, is utterly foreign to me. I am very thankful to be of the era that I was! This young man’s anonymity, though, need not be compromised but should rather be respected by all of us. We do not know who he is – and it should stay that way, please.

On the other hand, it has allowed some lay people who have been part of this thread to see an aspect of discernment in formation for priesthood and consecrated life…at least a tiny glimpse of something that normally would not be seen so publicly and this can be of benefit.

There are moments when something happens in the Church that may go beyond our experience or our estimation of what is right, just or proper – but which is not, for all that, actually inappropriate in the unique circumstance it happens but which serves its own very important purpose in the plan of God and in the working of the Church.

There is a reason for circumspection and an extreme prudence when one confronts situations and one is immediately moved to express oneself. As one said to me when I was yet young and flung to responsibilities I did not want, “Do not be blithe in arriving at determinations you should make only after much prayer, deep consideration, and even with great fear and tremendous trepidation.” Truer words of counsel I seldom received.

Some forms of consecrated life ask a heroicity of virtue that one can easily lose sight of…and we have been reminded of that.

Anyone who reads this thread would do a great act of charity to pause and pray for those who are actively in discernment, and also those who are charged by the Church with making discernment, as well as those who are living in institutes of perfection that require tremendous self denial and self sacrifice. I have learned, over the course of my life, that none of those segments is easy to be tasked with.

Having said that, I should be very glad to now permanently retire from this thread.

 

[ProVobis]

Is there certain historical knowledge of this, or is it something that we know happened in at least in a particular time or place, but we don’t know about others? I’m thinking that this is information that might not have been preserved from antiquity.

At least one bishop was convinced that in the early church the cloth was used to cover the hands. At least that’s the reason he insisted a cloth be used on the altar rail inside the EF parish in his diocese.

St. John Cantius (Chicago) also uses the cloth at the altar rail. And I’m sure there are others.

There are no specific instructions but the custom is for the communicant to receive on the tongue while his hands are placed under the cloth. This in addition to the paten used by the server.

 

[babochka]

ical for me.

To everybody reading this…
Pray for my vocation that I may be in the right life

I will pray for you.